[Bobboau]

morality will and should remain for the life humanity, it's good for holding a socal code, wich improves the chances of the majority of people surviving and promotes improvement on many diferent levels,
if you removed the morality code from humans our race would stagnate disintigrate and die off. with out morality our ancestors never even would survived.
thus the moral code is an important evolutionary survival stratigy

now by morality I am refering to the natural sence of right and wrong, any sence of god or afterlife are mearly constructs added to reinforce it or use it to controle people,
you are born with the knowlege that it is wrong to kill someone, to steal from someone, to cause pain, this all refers to people who are part of you're socal groupe, and there is an inate sence to grant a level of morality to people who have no hostility to you.
there are also other instincts involved wich revolve around wether something is in the same socal groupe as you, and thus deserving of some level of humane treatment, when ever someone has tried to denigrate another groupe of people they are always cast as beeing less than human, when they clearly are, the reason that this sort of thing ever works is becase we have a built in sense of Us  and Them

I'm too tierd to continue this right now

[CP5670]

Physics is NOT philosophy, by the way; science is an examination, with the implements we have, of how the components of the Universe work in order to expand that which we know; philosophy is the way of, by sheer reasoning, putting what we know together to form a coherent picture.

Uh, yes it is. This "sheer reasoning" is also required in much of modern physics, just like mathematics, since experimentation is no longer possible in some areas. (e.g. we cannot really examine black holes; their existence and properties follow from the math) In fact, all arbritrary subdivisions of knowledge are essentially various parts of philosophy.

morality will and should remain for the life humanity, it's good for holding a socal code, wich improves the chances of the majority of people surviving and promotes improvement on many diferent levels,
if you removed the morality code from humans our race would stagnate disintigrate and die off. with out morality our ancestors never even would survived.
thus the moral code is an important evolutionary survival stratigy

It will die off as well after a while; remember that the governments are the new gods and the laws are the new morals, and the system thus keeps constantly evolving. At this point, the morality still needs to be there to some extent, but I can definitely see a time in which ethical values will have become as irrelevant as ritualistic religion is about to become.

[Stryke 9]

I suppose so; however, a good deal of the quantum-mechanics theorizing on the nature of time and space seems to me to be science in name only. There is a definite line, but the two rely heavily on each other and sometimes they get confused.

[Bobboau]

no it's one of those pre programed things like crying when you are a baby and are hungery, or wanting to get layed, the religous setup (God will burn you in hell if you do\don't do this) will fade away (the sooner the beter), but the instinctual behavour will remain strong (shareing, helping, not killing)

basicly people will be nice to people they like
I don't see that going away any time soon

things you do to be nice are good

people will be mean to people they dislike (rivals, people who have been mean to them)
I don't see that going away any time soon ether

things you do to be mean or to please you're self at the expense of others (typicaly people you don't like) are bad

people will try not to make more enemies
you will be nice to people you don't have any reason to dislike (ignorance can become a reason)

[Stryke 9]

THat's not an entirely religious thing, anyway. Total bastards don't get too far in life, generally. Neither do extremely nice people. So, by natural selection, society tends towards the middle. Works in people as well as anything else.

[Styxx]

Originally posted by Stryke 9
Styxx: Anyone who is so easily offended as to be shocked that others have different beliefs and ideas of their own has no business in a thread that involves thought, and should have better sense than to show up here. Same with trolls that just wanna insult people's ideologies. In fact, both are such repulsive sorts that they're not worth taking into consideration; I don't see why they can't be just recognized for the distasteful types that they are and ignored. If we can't have the occasional thread where people can discuss things that are truly significant in life, than this OT forum is absolutely worthless and should be deleted. There's very little redeeming value to the 500th word game or movie criticism on this forum- they're all the same, and I think somehting different is what is needed right now.

Indeed, that makes sense - it doesn't stop, though, the "trolls" from starting to try to offend people, and people to try to offend them back in response. Such topics have a tendency to go that way, and even if we allow and encourage this discussion, we won't let it degenerate into a flame war.

Just a warning.

[CP5670]

no it's one of those pre programed things like crying when you are a baby and are hungery, or wanting to get layed, the religous setup (God will burn you in hell if you do\don't do this) will fade away (the sooner the beter), but the instinctual behavour will remain strong (shareing, helping, not killing)

Nah, instinctual behavior dictates complete anarchy, and the original primordial man only had his own survival in mind. Morals came up as societies and groups started to cohese, and these were the first laws. Over the millennia, they have been ingrained into the minds of the people like a religion, but they will only retain it as long as it beneficial to the society; once the concept of individuality starts to fade, morals will go along with it.

I suppose so; however, a good deal of the quantum-mechanics theorizing on the nature of time and space seems to me to be science in name only. There is a definite line, but the two rely heavily on each other and sometimes they get confused.

It's still accepted as science though and fits all the criteria for science. Once science has completed its investigation and analysis of the experimentable world, it will work on the same questions that philosophy does today.

[Bobboau]

people have been liveing in tribes and such for milions of years, humans are socal animals, like most primates swiming in our part of the gene pool

[CP5670]

Humans are only social when there is something to be gained for the survival of the individual; even before the tribes, they were just like the jungle animals today.

[Stryke 9]

That's not necessarily true. People, and indeed all animals, are hardwired to protect their species (and, particularly, their genetic strain) first, and themselves second. You can see examples of this sort of thing everywhere; it's what's called self-sacrifice, and it has no real benefit for the individual. It just furthers the individual's descendants.

[CP5670]

While that may be true, if the animal has to make a choice between their own survival and the survival of the species, they will choose the former without a moment of hesitation. (there are cases where this is not true, but most of the human-related species have this type of behavior) For example, if there are two monkeys that are both a bit hungry, and if only one has a banana, the other will try to take it from him, and this is just what the old human was like. The modern human, in the mainstream at least, will need to be really driven to desperation before he does something "morally wrong," because the years of cultural influence will have finely embedded the ideas into his mind and created a tough foundation there. (this is exactly the same way religion works)

[Bobboau]

cimpansese are socal too, they have a similar socal behavor, as do gorilas, most monkes generaly have some level of socal behavor,
also can you list one population of humans that do not live in a famly\socal gorupe

[CP5670]

I'm not saying that they are not social at all; what I am saying is that they are not moral in the sense we think of today. Morality can only stem from the early progress of knowledge.

Frankly, people that claim that religion is all irrational but strictly adhere to morals in the same manner are being very inconsistent.

[Bobboau]

in a socal environment you need rules, and you need a sence of right and wrong, if you don't you're socity won't last very long.
morality stems from empathy, wich is an emotion, you feel bad if you do something that you wouldn't want to be done to you

[CP5670]

That only applies to the system of today and will probably change in the future. Like I said, the laws are the new form of morality if you think about it. Morality is fine, but only as a means to keep society running; for most people today it has become an end in itself regardless of religion, and that is just as bad (if not worse) as the religion. It should be kept in mind that for about half the situations it has no application whatsoever.

[Petrarch of the VBB]

At the risk of being vulgar...

Christianity: How was the Universe created?
Science: I don't know.
Christianity: Well in that case it was obviously conjured up in seven days by a big man in the sky.

[vadar_1]

Originally posted by Petrarch of th VBB
At the risk of being vulgar...

Christianity: How was the Universe created?
Science: I don't know.
Christianity: Well in that case it was obviously conjured up in seven days by a big man in the sky.

Science: The universe was created through the big bang theory, where all the gasses condensed into an area smaller then photon, exploded, shooting out hydrogen, and various other gasses into the known universe. Slowly but surely, these gasses started to pull together under each others gravity, and form condensed clusters of gas, known as nebulas.  These nebulas then continued to form around gravitational spikes to form stars. Eventually, these stars exploded under the weight of their own gravity, and various other elements formed through these explosions. These free-floating elements started attracting to each other through magnetic fields and the gravity from each particle, and eventually as the peices grew larger and larger, planets formed. Carbon was one of these elements, and the carbom formed amino (sp)? chains, that ultimately evolved into life.

Christianity: It all makes sense now

[CP5670]

so true...

[Mr. Vega]

Evolution seems to promote a moral society once it becomes advanced, as an immoral one will destroy itself.

Religion was prevalent when life was difficult and a reason to hope was needed. That's one explanation about religion.

And to anyone who says that a powerful man flying above in the clouds is impossible so therefore God is, you're assuming that God is a life form or matter you can touch.

All the religions I have seen teach morals or themes but do not teach the purpose or true nature of the universe. My opinion is that was left for us to figure out.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by CP5670
so true...

i don't think so

Originally posted by vadar_1
Wanna know what god is to the science world? Just something people beleave in so they wont kill themselves. A method, if you will, to keep the masses in line. Thats religion summed up.

that may have been the case during the Spanish Inquisition, but how does religion 'keep the masses in line' now!?