Author Topic: The new lab  (Read 2603 times)

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Offline Spoon

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Man, these shiplab camera controls are insufferable. Trying to line up a ship just right is an exercise in frustration.

Nice job implementing it like this, without any input from the people using it, and then not adressing any of feedback afterwards. Much appreciated.  :yes:
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline Cyborg17

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SCP, is it feasible to revert the camera controls only?

 

Online m!m

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Man, these shiplab camera controls are insufferable. Trying to line up a ship just right is an exercise in frustration.

Nice job implementing it like this, without any input from the people using it, and then not adressing any of feedback afterwards. Much appreciated.  :yes:
I haven't used the lab in some time so I cannot comment on how difficult the new camera controls are but I can comment on how the changes were discussed here.

Someone (this is a general problem I see and is not specific to The E so I'll keep this generic) spent a lot of time on improving the internal structure of the lab code which makes it much easier to use in the future and brings it more in line with how the rest of the game is rendered. And now, people are constantly complaining about the new code :nono:

If I were the contributor of this code, I would think twice before working on the FSO code again since apparently people don't like my contributions. This is how you lose people as code contributors!
We are all volunteers here so if I have the feeling that my work isn't valued, then I will direct my free coding time somewhere else.

This is all I have to say on this matter. Maybe the controls can be fixed, maybe they can't. But why should I (or any other coder) invest the time required to do this if some people in the community will only post passive aggressive messages about the changes?

 

Offline Spoon

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I haven't used the lab in some time so I cannot comment on how difficult the new camera controls are but I can comment on how the changes were discussed here.
Yeah and that is sometimes part of the issue, no? Coders adding something without considering how usable it is for the end user.

Someone (this is a general problem I see and is not specific to The E so I'll keep this generic) spent a lot of time on improving the internal structure of the lab code which makes it much easier to use in the future and brings it more in line with how the rest of the game is rendered. And now, people are constantly complaining about the new code :nono:
These 'generic general global statements' are pointless, and also blatantly unfair. Did you even check the previous posts in this thread? There is plenty of praise about the new feature in addition with user feedback on things that could be improved. It's not some endless string of complaints, it's a bunch of posts with user feedback. There is a difference.

If I were the contributor of this code, I would think twice before working on the FSO code again since apparently people don't like my contributions. This is how you lose people as code contributors!
We are all volunteers here so if I have the feeling that my work isn't valued, then I will direct my free coding time somewhere else.
The contributor of this code added something in February and hasn't addressed any of the points raised by the users since then, that's more than 8 months later.
Again, this seems like a weirdly unfair thing to say. "You made a passive aggressive post in frustration on this outstanding issue that hasn't been fixed in 8 months, nor is it getting any kind of response from the coder responsible. You are the reason why coders quit!".
I don't understand why you are the one who seems to feel like he's being personally attacked here. Have I or other people who use the new code and features been unreasonable and rude to you recently?

This is all I have to say on this matter. Maybe the controls can be fixed, maybe they can't. But why should I (or any other coder) invest the time required to do this if some people in the community will only post passive aggressive messages about the changes?
I don't know man, what else can I do after 8 months of having to deal with extremely frustrating camera controls that are apparantly not getting adressed one way or another? I keep bumping the thread and I get silence from the coder responsible. But yeah, I'm totally the reason why coders quit. That seems like a fair thing to say in this case? :confused:

We are all volunteers here so if I have the feeling that my work isn't valued, then I will direct my free coding time somewhere else.
Same? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Online m!m

  • 211
This wasn't a post about me or anyone in particular. I simply tried to point out that I felt like the current way of discussing the problem is not effective for solving the issue. I don't really have a solution for this problem but I wanted to try to show a possible reason for why this or other issues have not been fixed yet.

The reason why I wrote my previous post was that I thought about fixing the issue but then I saw your post and simply asked myself "Why should I bother fixing this?". Maybe I'll take a look at it at some point, maybe not. My point is that passive aggressive posts aren't helping you if you want to get someone to fix an issue.

 

Offline Spoon

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This wasn't a post about me or anyone in particular. I simply tried to point out that I felt like the current way of discussing the problem is not effective for solving the issue.
Yeah, okay, you have to understand it doesn't work that way. If you felt like this was some kind of issue that has happened frequently recently and you felt the need to adress it globally, you could have done so in a seperate thread. By posting it here, especially in response to my frustrated post makes it very much personally directed at my door. You can say you didn't mean it that way, but that's not how it works. And thus, I will respond to your post as if you adressed it me.

I don't really have a solution for this problem but I wanted to try to show a possible reason for why this or other issues have not been fixed yet.
You really didn't put much thought in your post then. Because had you stopped and read the previous posts, looked at the dates of each post and taken everything into account, you would realize that this cannot possibly be the reason in this particular case.

The reason why I wrote my previous post was that I thought about fixing the issue but then I saw your post and simply asked myself "Why should I bother fixing this?". Maybe I'll take a look at it at some point, maybe not.
What I don't get is that you asked yourself this, yet you didn't answer your own question.
Q: "Why should I bother fixing this?"
A: "This issue has been open for over 8 months and is very clearly a point of frustration for the game developers, yet repeated pleads asking when this issue will finally be adressed, have been met with nothing but silence. I can understand why at this point Spoon would start to get a bit passive aggressive in tone, he would probably be grateful if I fixed this issue for him."

You're calling for more empathy towards coders, which is fine. I mean, I personally have tried my darnest in recent years to be appreciative towards coders when they add cool features and fix annoying bugs. Yet oddly, you seem to display no empathy towards the frustrations of the game developers who had to deal with a particular issue for more than 8 month and is getting blatantly ignored on the issue.

My point is that passive aggressive posts aren't helping you if you want to get someone to fix an issue.
Repeatedly bumping the thread didn't produce any replies from coders. But when I start getting passive aggressive because I'm frustrated with how this issue is ignored, presto, an actual (very competent) coder shows up. Your point doesn't seem very strong.


All of that being said, I've asked DahBlount if he could have a go at this issue and he said he would look into it. So maybe, hopefully, we'll finally have some workable camera controls back in the shiplab after all this time, soonish.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline PIe

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Quick question:  would uninverting pitch when rotating a ship help, even if it doesn't solve all (or even most) of the problems with the controls?  It's a really easy fix, just taking out a negation, but I want to make sure someone actually wants this before I submit it.
Edit:
Reset view would be pretty cool!
And reset lighting? The ambient, direct and bloom sliders default to minimum, but those are not the default values.
Would you prefer separate keybinds for this or do you want a single key to reset both of these?  I assume the first means resetting to the ship to its initial position and rotation values, and the second means setting the initial slider values to be whatever is passed in on the command line.
Edit 2:
I'm not sure how well this was known but I'm fairly certain that changing this sliders will persist outside the lab (I know this is true for bloom just from quick testing), so your changes will apply without having to restart FSO, which is nice.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 01:09:45 am by PIe »
[6:23 PM] PIe: why do I have the feeling that I shouldn't be able to give orders to 22nd armored hq
[6:24 PM] Axem: 22nd armored hq, i order you to get me a cup of coffee
[6:24 PM] PIe: and donuts
[6:24 PM] PIe: BECAUSE THIS IS THE GTVA POLICE
[6:25 PM] Axem: :O
[6:25 PM] Axem: am i under arrest
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: no, just please step out of the myrmidon
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: you have so much to fred for

 

Offline The E

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I am very sorry. I would like to apologize for my ignoring this thread; usability issues should never be ignored by a developer, and that's exactly what I did once the code reached the "works for me" state.

Axem's proposed fix is definitely workable, and shouldn't take much time to implement; We have a long weekend coming up here, and I'll code it up then. This is a firm commitment from me: There will be a PR and test build on next Sunday at the latest, implementing "turntable" style controls.
**** every cause that ends in murder and children crying. ― Iain Banks
Join the fun at the HLP IRC channel. Get the latest spam and gossip as long as it's fresh!

 

Offline Col. Fishguts

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There will be a PR and test build on next Sunday at the latest, implementing "turntable" style controls.

Yay, looking forward to that  :yes:

I would just like to add: The F3 lab is a modders dream, and your new additional features look very useful.
Improving the ease-of-use for the lab is very well invested time.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 11:38:32 am by Col. Fishguts »
"I don't think that people accept the fact that life doesn't make sense. I think it makes people terribly uncomfortable. It seems like religion and myth were invented against that, trying to make sense out of it." - D. Lynch

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Offline Spoon

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No hard feelings, glad you're getting on this!
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline The E

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PR is up: https://github.com/scp-fs2open/fs2open.github.com/pull/1920

A test build implementing the changes in it (AVX2 x64) is available here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oxw3u87y80lyqfb/new_lab_controls.7z?dl=0
Other test builds available on request.

A quick note about the pitch rotation in particular: For silly math reasons, pitch is restricted to only allow a 180 degree rotation (i.e. pointing completely down to pointing completely up); don't be alarmed when rotation suddenly stops.
**** every cause that ends in murder and children crying. ― Iain Banks
Join the fun at the HLP IRC channel. Get the latest spam and gossip as long as it's fresh!

 

Offline Spoon

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Turns out my I7 2600k doesn't support AVX2, making the game crash on start up with that build.
Can you get me a MMX build? Can I have just a regular boring plain AVX or SSE1/2/3/4 build?
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline ngld

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Here you go: AVX build (x64).

 

Offline Spoon

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Here you go: AVX build (x64).
Thanks!

@The E
These new camera controls are excellent  :yes: :yes:
Shiplab is now in an amazing state.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline The E

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Happy to hear it!

Question: Would adding a roll control be useful?
**** every cause that ends in murder and children crying. ― Iain Banks
Join the fun at the HLP IRC channel. Get the latest spam and gossip as long as it's fresh!

 

Offline Spoon

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Yeah, it probably would be.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline The E

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**** every cause that ends in murder and children crying. ― Iain Banks
Join the fun at the HLP IRC channel. Get the latest spam and gossip as long as it's fresh!

 

Offline Spoon

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Yup yup, can confirm is good and excellent.  :yes:
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline PIe

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    • freespace3.com
In the next nightly, you will be able to iterate through ships of the same species and weapons of the same type with the up/down arrow keys.
[6:23 PM] PIe: why do I have the feeling that I shouldn't be able to give orders to 22nd armored hq
[6:24 PM] Axem: 22nd armored hq, i order you to get me a cup of coffee
[6:24 PM] PIe: and donuts
[6:24 PM] PIe: BECAUSE THIS IS THE GTVA POLICE
[6:25 PM] Axem: :O
[6:25 PM] Axem: am i under arrest
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: no, just please step out of the myrmidon
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: you have so much to fred for

 
Good thing. :yes2: Could be be set default mode to pitch and yaw?

@PIe
It is nice workaround when list of ships is bigger than screen height (especially on lower resolution screens).