Author Topic: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)  (Read 5508 times)

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Maybe because all "celebrity dead"-threads are just waiting to be derailed into ones that require staff attention/to be moved into political discussion?

 

Offline The E

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Sorry about that.

But I do find it a bit weird that criticism of TB, expecially hyperbolic and theatrical criticism, is suddenly verboten and tasteless now that he's dead. TB was, to use an euphemism, a controversial figure; he was not above whining at videogame developers when one of their employees said something mean about him (which makes this whole drama even funnier; after all, what better way to honor TB's legacy than to continue that tradition....). This guy had an axe to grind, sure. But did he truly cross an unprecedented line, one that requires him to be disavowed and fired? Nope, not as faras I am concerned.

The thing is, looking at how this drama unfolds, there's some very familiar groups banging the drums of decency and morality and proper ethical behaviour, and for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone is taking them serious enough to warrant going into corporate defense mode over this.

My question for you, Spoon, is why was this whole affair relevant to you to post it here? What's the point in shining a spotlight on a Twitter rant by a random person?
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
That doesn't apply. His views aren't the issue here, he can think TB is garbage and the World is better off without him without being an unprofessional, malicious asshole.

There is a bit of an issue in dealing with people who yell that they're being oppressed for their political views whilst they're actually getting flak for being unprofessional malicious assholes though.

---

Quote from: The E
The thing is, looking at how this drama unfolds, there's some very familiar groups banging the drums of decency and morality and proper ethical behaviour, and for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone is taking them serious enough to warrant going into corporate defense mode over this.

Because those groups are hardly the only ones around?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 01:18:14 pm by -Joshua- »

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Personally I'm indifferent about him being fired. Again, if it actually happened. I think they have justifiable grounds to do so, but don't think they had to.

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Sorry about that.

But I do find it a bit weird that criticism of TB, expecially hyperbolic and theatrical criticism, is suddenly verboten and tasteless now that he's dead. TB was, to use an euphemism, a controversial figure; he was not above whining at videogame developers when one of their employees said something mean about him (which makes this whole drama even funnier; after all, what better way to honor TB's legacy than to continue that tradition....).
I definitely don't think it is or should be verboten, but there is definitely a line between "I disagreed with and didn't quite like TB because of this and that reason" and "I'm glad this mother****er is finally dead, this world is a better place now." imo. One of these is tasteless and crude.

This guy had an axe to grind, sure. But did he truly cross an unprecedented line, one that requires him to be disavowed and fired? Nope, not as faras I am concerned.
Question: Say for example, this was some prominent transgender/homosexual rights activtist who died instead of a games critic. And this guy did a similar rant on that. Would you still feel the same way?

The thing is, looking at how this drama unfolds, there's some very familiar groups banging the drums of decency and morality and proper ethical behaviour, and for the life of me I can't figure out why anyone is taking them serious enough to warrant going into corporate defense mode over this.
From what I've seen, both sides of the fence have done some very familiar drumming.

My question for you, Spoon, is why was this whole affair relevant to you to post it here? What's the point in shining a spotlight on a Twitter rant by a random person?
The relevancy should speak for itself? It's a topic about TB having passed away and the video seemed relevant enough for that? I had no particular agenda there.
I was browsing around the internet after the first news came out and I was personally pretty appalled by how tasteless and vile, parts of the internet became. I mean, at least wait until the body is cold and the relatives had some time to mourn before spouting all the vitrol and bile? Seems like common decency to me.

But hey, I don't follow celebrity news usually, so maybe this is just how these things go usually and I never had to displeasure of experiencing it before?
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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
But hey, I don't follow celebrity news usually, so maybe this is just how these things go usually and I never had to displeasure of experiencing it before?

More of this: https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=92959.0

Luckily, something like that doesn't happen that often (here atleast).

Generally, I think it's hard (probably impossible) for celebrities these days not to end in a lake of ****posts.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 01:41:05 pm by Nightmare »

 

Offline The E

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Question: Say for example, this was some prominent transgender/homosexual rights activtist who died instead of a games critic. And this guy did a similar rant on that. Would you still feel the same way?

Personally speaking, yes. If that person had legitimate grounds for their complaints, sure, they should feel free to flame and vent as much as they want or need to. Our collective reflex to only want to see the best sides of those that have died and to dogpile people who have a different perspective on these people is one that we should work on.

Quote
I was browsing around the internet after the first news came out and I was personally pretty appalled by how tasteless and vile, parts of the internet became. I mean, at least wait until the body is cold and the relatives had some time to mourn before spouting all the vitrol and bile? Seems like common decency to me.

There is also a tendency in internet drama to blow up everything vaguely dramatic beyond reason, and this is one of those things IMHO. This is all about a few tweets by some random dude who is or has been working for Bioware. It's not about some other influential person doing anything, this is just some guy, and now he's being dogpiled for something that, if he had said it in a public place in real life, noone would've cared about. If you had heard something like that in a random conversation in the street, what would your reaction be? Would it be to intervene and demand an apology of the speaker, go to the speaker's manager and complain about him, follow the speaker home to berate him some more about what a bad person he is and tell everyone you know about the utter depravity of that man? Because that's the RL equivalent of this, and somehow I don't think that it gets more rational if it is translated into the social media space.
I am not going to claim innocence there, I have been in those dogpiles. I have done just that. But I do try not to anymore.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
That comparison is flawed. Because you're letting the World know if you do it online. The comparison would work if he had sent that to one or a group of friends (with no love for TB) then it got leaked. Then I would be opposed to his firing. But he didn't, he chose to do it for all to see in that way at that time out of malice.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
What is the difference between making a tweet and saying something in a packed public space?

And how do you come to the conclusion that this happened out of malice?

I mean, the original tweet that started this wasn't using any hashtags and it didn't mention @totalbiscuit in its text. That is the Twitter equivalent of saying something in a packed hall in which hundreds of conversations are happening already; to see it, you would have to be following the original poster or actively be looking for people using "totalbiscuit" in a tweet. He didn't "choose to do it for all to see", not by a long shot.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 03:05:50 pm by The E »
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Little difference if you're speaking to the whole crowd. If you're just talking to your buddies (and not loudly proclaiming it so everyone can hear) and someone overhears, that would be much the same as what I said about a leak.

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Question: Say for example, this was some prominent transgender/homosexual rights activtist who died instead of a games critic. And this guy did a similar rant on that. Would you still feel the same way?

Personally speaking, yes. If that person had legitimate grounds for their complaints, sure, they should feel free to flame and vent as much as they want or need to. Our collective reflex to only want to see the best sides of those that have died and to dogpile people who have a different perspective on these people is one that we should work on.
Okay, as long as you're consistent like that.  :yes:
As for that collective reflex you speak of, the general sentiment of what you post, I agree on. I just strongly feel it should be happening in a civilized manner. And well... Not in the way random twitter user who happened to work with bioware did. I mean, I understand the urge of wanting to vent. But once you put it out on social media, you can sort of expect people are going to call you out on it, no?

I was browsing around the internet after the first news came out and I was personally pretty appalled by how tasteless and vile, parts of the internet became. I mean, at least wait until the body is cold and the relatives had some time to mourn before spouting all the vitrol and bile? Seems like common decency to me.

There is also a tendency in internet drama to blow up everything vaguely dramatic beyond reason, and this is one of those things IMHO. This is all about a few tweets by some random dude who is or has been working for Bioware. It's not about some other influential person doing anything, this is just some guy, and now he's being dogpiled for something that, if he had said it in a public place in real life, noone would've cared about. If you had heard something like that in a random conversation in the street, what would your reaction be? Would it be to intervene and demand an apology of the speaker, go to the speaker's manager and complain about him, follow the speaker home to berate him some more about what a bad person he is and tell everyone you know about the utter depravity of that man? Because that's the RL equivalent of this, and somehow I don't think that it gets more rational if it is translated into the social media space.
I am not going to claim innocence there, I have been in those dogpiles. I have done just that. But I do try not to anymore.
The thing is, that comparison with real life just doesn't hold up. In real life when you overhear someone ranting like that, you don't instantly also get access to all the other information they once put out there. Where they work, what they said yesterday, last week and last month etc. Not to mention you have to be right there at the right time and place, to even hear whats being said. And you can't read back on it hours after the fact. Things on social media just carry so much farther and wider. It's just how the internet, social media and people seem to work.
Not to mention that the person on the internet can't start shouting in your actual face, or otherwise inflict physical harm on you when you speak up against them.

Imo in this case it isn't even really a bad thing. Random twitter guy said some pretty awful things imo, and getting a good proper dogpile educating him on why he's being a piece of **** might give him some food for thought. Maybe give him a moment of self reflection?

As a young teenager I once made a half-joking "Let's just kill all the gays" post on a forum once. Basically everyone in my direct real life enviroment were christian and had anti-gay views, it never occured to me that there might be people out there that don't see the humor in a remark like that. And well, I got properly dogpilled by the other forum users for it. Probably rightfully so. And you know what? It seriously made me reflect on what I had posted over the next few days.
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Offline Enioch

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
What is the difference between making a tweet and saying something in a packed public space?

Verba volant, scripta manent.


Anything you post in the internet is the equivalent of written word. You can review it, you can think about it and you can make damn sure it's exactly what you want to say before you say it. While saying something ****ty out loud in a social context in the heat of the moment is excusable, imo (I accept 'wow, what was I thinking?!' excuses in a spoken word context), when you take the time to sit down and write something that will be published in a public platform, available to most of the population of the western world, you need to take the time to think whether what you're posting is actually representative of who you are and actually conveys what you want to say.

Posting anything on social media is a conscious choice and it defines you as a human being. You should be expected to be judged based on that.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
No no no, I agree with The_E wholeheartedly. There's no point in dragging people through the mud for merely sharing some off-the-cuff primary thoughts on twitter, of all places, especially if the person in question is irrelevant in the bigger social scheme of things.

I've been consistently making this point for half a decade now, and it matters zero atoms to me if the victims in question are caught by the sjw mobs or by the anti-sjw mobs. It's utterly irrelevant to the latter point: **** is being exploded way too out of proportion for the deed made.

Personally, I find this behavior abhorrent, but let's stop the dogpiling and the destruction of a person's life because of a ****ing tweet already? Pretty please?


----


There's also a reversal of a kind happening in the gaming community regarding Battlefield V. I was always defending devs when they were being attacked by sjw mobs because their game didn't pass their purity tests of any sort "not enough black vikings in this game 0/10 bigoted crap" and other utterly stupid asinine op'eds by the likes of kotaku, polygon and all the other culprits.

But I guess stupidity and political correctness isn't something the left invented. Because a trailer came out and had a woman fighting in WW2, the hordes invaded youtube to share their disgust at the several things that "lack realism", dogpiling the devs until submition, which would probably be when they finally reveal a trailer where the main protagonist in it is a white blue eyed, blonde haired male, perhaps fighting some nazis.... I mean wolfenstein had a deep sense of irony in this, but I don't believe these morons even know the meaning of that word.

Posting anything on social media is a conscious choice and it defines you as a human being. You should be expected to be judged based on that.

I don't think firing someone for posting some shenanigan on twitter should be a thing. But hey, what do I know.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
WTF is even going on in here?

-TotalBiscuit was definitely controversial and said some ****ty things; he also did a number of good things for the industry, and he was a person who fought his ass off against an awful condition and lost at a young age, leaving behind a wife and parents.
-Generally, the time to grind an axe, particularly over relatively petty and trivial matters is not the time right after someone dies.
-I tend to think humanity needs to settle on a realization that instant and heavy reaction to a casual comment on social media should be scaled back and people should be given some benefit of the doubt.  15 years ago, if you said something idiotic, insensitive, or downright awful in a small group of your friends then you got judged by your peers or immediate community and that was the end of it.  Now, someone's biggest stupid moment (even if normally out of character) can be broadcast and amplified for the whole world to see in a few eyeblinks whether they meant it to go out or not.  And context is often lost.  While I do believe people should always be accountable for their words and actions, I also happen to be of the mindset that people deserve the benefit of the doubt; one "get out of 'oops' free" card if you will.
-BioWare is a corporation with a reputation they wish to maintain, and given the extreme overreaction to many things on the Internet, they are will within their rights to fire someone for comments that reflect badly on them and issue a public statement.  I am unsurprised by neither development.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Enioch

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)

Posting anything on social media is a conscious choice and it defines you as a human being. You should be expected to be judged based on that.

I don't think firing someone for posting some shenanigan on twitter should be a thing. But hey, what do I know.

Too much of a blanket statement for my tastes.

From my perspective, posting anything on publicly accessible social media is the equivalent of publishing whatever you posted on a written medium (e.g. a journal, or a newspaper). You are taking what you are thinking, you are writing it down, you are taking the time to look it over and you are posting it on a publicly accessible platform, where it will remain. That is a conscious choice, to reveal something about yourself to an international audience. And iIt has been conclusively shown that deleting a tweet or an account will not purge the records, if someone has taken the time to screenshot whatever ****post you made.

Do you stand behind whatever you decided to post? If yes, then you should be expected to be judged based on that, and if your employer decides to fire you because they don't want to be associated with whatever bile you chose to put to digital paper and broadcast to the world, then you should accept that (assuming your employer are within their rights to fire you based on your employment contract, of course).

If you're not willing to stand behind whatever you decided to post, why post it in the first place?. "Just kidding, I didn't think it would cause such a backlash." is not an excuse from where I stand.

EDIT: What Mp-Ryan said. With one exception: Twitter is not a platform that equates to 'I am discussing this with my friends'. That would be a PM on facebook or something. When you publicly tweet something, then you broadcast it to the entire internet. It's more along the lines of "standing on a soapbox and screaming it out in defiance".

People might not realise this is the case. They should.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Meh, you're basically disowning the very idea of twitter imho, which was based off of letting people share their off-the-cuff thoughts in real time. That's fine, if you think that way, great for you, but not everyone shares your draconian criteria. I, for one, don't. And I happen to think these pitchfork behaviors are one of the biggest causes of the state of utter ****tiness we are in, socially and politically speaking.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I try to present a reasonably consistent version of myself online.

But at the same time, I am also not second-guessing every single thing I do here.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Enioch

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Meh, you're basically disowning the very idea of twitter imho, which was based off of letting people share their off-the-cuff thoughts in real time.

Yes, I am. I despise Twitter and the ideology it seems to promote. I consider the very concept of being able to publicly share your thoughts and expect to take no responsibility for them to be toxic for any society.

If twitter limited the visibility of your tweets to your explicitly defined social circle, that would be another matter entirely, and twitter would have been a platform I could get behind. Because that would have been equivalent to talking **** with your mates and that's not something I'm willing to judge people for.

That's fine, if you think that way, great for you, but not everyone shares your draconian criteria. I, for one, don't. And I happen to think these pitchfork behaviors are one of the biggest causes of the state of utter ****tiness we are in, socially and politically speaking.

Pitchfork behaviours of this sort have been intrinsic to western societies since forever. Controversial published opinions have always been greeted hostilely by a part of the population. I think there's just more food for them in recent years, because platforms have been made available for people to expose themselves to them. Also more people can express their contrary opinion in the same platforms, which exacerbates matters.

I try to present a reasonably consistent version of myself online.

But at the same time, I am also not second-guessing every single thing I do here.

My argument is that perhaps you should. Second-guessing and re-thinking everything you write down and sign, no matter the medium it's stored and accessible in, is a good habit to get into.

I learned that when I left my comfort zone and studied abroad.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Meh, you're basically disowning the very idea of twitter imho, which was based off of letting people share their off-the-cuff thoughts in real time. That's fine, if you think that way, great for you, but not everyone shares your draconian criteria. I, for one, don't. And I happen to think these pitchfork behaviors are one of the biggest causes of the state of utter ****tiness we are in, socially and politically speaking.
I for one think Enioch is wise.

Also this is good:
My argument is that perhaps you should. Second-guessing and re-thinking everything you write down and sign, no matter the medium it's stored and accessible in, is a good habit to get into.

Personally, I find this behavior abhorrent, but let's stop the dogpiling and the destruction of a person's life because of a ****ing tweet already? Pretty please?
I dunno man, you're gonna have to do beter than a pretty please to stop me from my dogpiling ways. How about a large sum of money? Or a blowjob?

But to clarify, because it sort of feels like you're shifting the narrative here to make me appear like I'm some pitchfork wielding peasant who is outraged at this particular person for tweeting bad things. I linked the video as an easy example of the specific kind of behavior I feel is abhorrent; the pissing on someone's grave when the person isn't even burried yet. Not because I specifically care about twitter guy who worked for bioware.
An easy to digest 5 minute video beats making a messy post, filled with quotes from other random horrible people from all over the internet.

Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
There are two ways you can read Enioch's suggestions. As a matter of behavioral suggestion for every individual, I agree with this 100%, and have attempted to behave like this as well, I do all of the second guessing, etc., etc.

But my point isn't individualistic, or what any individual should do regarding the context they're in. My major point is about the systemic nature of dogpiling and how all of the non-linearities pile up very very fast, and before you know it, your off-the-cuff line of thought about some guy you hated really badly that you wrote just after seeing him appear on your twitter timeline for some reason, makes the rest of your day miserable and in the end you're fired from your job and suddenly the whole project of your life is in standby.

I mean, yeah, let's blame the stupid guy who made a stupid tweet. OTOH, I don't, I blame the systemic nature of this dogpiling that is just over the top.

Much of what has been said I also agree: that dogpiling is a very old way of correcting people, that it has its positive effects, etc. But we don't live in a rural town where your lovely neighbours can smack your ass for saying the wrong heretic statements. We live in a world where if you tweet something, the entire world can suddenly notice you doing something in the fringe of its landscape and overwhelm you completely and ultimately destroy your life. It is in this context that I speak about how these problems are systemic, and we should not hold people accountable at least in this magnitude. It's totally not proportional.

And no, Spoon, I wasn't directing anything towards you, given how I think that posting anything in HLP isn't going to create anything systemically catastrophic for anyone involved whatsoever.