Author Topic: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)  (Read 5526 times)

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Offline Enioch

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
All of that is correct.

But let me widen the field a bit. Crooks isn't the only Bioware employee caught up in this. Another guy, Mike Jungbluth (who is a senior animator working on Anthem) made these comments. He, too, is the subject of much ire among the easily offended gamers set; he too was forced to apologize for the above statements.
 
Now, I would like you to first read the apology, and then the statement that caused the calls for it (and to Hudson to fire Jungbluth), then ask yourself if what he said was so bad to warrant that level of contrition.

Also: @ Spoon:

Quote
If we don't speak the entire truth of a person after they pass and allow their toxic behavior go silent while only applauding their successes, we reward people for their accomplishments no matter how they achieved them. And that is a terrible precedent to set and allow.

For the record, I would not have considered the Jungbluth comment offensive, nor would I have demanded an apology of him; it is reasonable and politely worded. But I do not see why my stance is relevant. This is between Bioware and Jungbluth.

I also note that, unlike Crooks, he has not been fired (correct me if I'm wrong).
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I really wish companies would stop firing people based on "controversies" that will die the minute the next twitter idiot decides to open his mouth.

Why fire a (possibly?) productive employee when the outcome of not firing them will be close to negligible? Just mention the usual "this employees opinions are not our own" and move on, or do we really expect every company employee to have the same opinions as the company's board?
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Thanks.

Yeah, that tweet by Jungbluth is a farcry from the bile that Crooks fellow wrote. And the anger at that particular tweet seems quite overblown imho.
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[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I really wish companies would stop firing people based on "controversies" that will die the minute the next twitter idiot decides to open his mouth.

Why fire a (possibly?) productive employee when the outcome of not firing them will be close to negligible? Just mention the usual "this employees opinions are not our own" and move on, or do we really expect every company employee to have the same opinions as the company's board?

Because if you don't follow the will of these people you might end up with an outcome that's not negligible (lots of bad publicity). Think of something like "BREAKING NEWS: Company XY defends employee who mocks person that died from cancer!!". Who'd do that, especially when people can be fired for pretty much everything? That doesn't change that you're absolutly right IMO.

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I can see certain internals of the game development process being under a more or less eternal NDA, but you're going to have to do a bit more work to convince me that such broad gag orders are not only a thing, but so common that noone in the past few years has ever talked about them.

How many non-director game developers do you see publicly complaining about reviews?  The gag order can be inferred by the absence of developer feedback to reviews.  The only time we see response to a review its either a studio head, producer, ame director or some independent.  Not a "systems programmer" or "character modeller" or "QA Tester"

Also whether this guy was employed at Bioware or not at the time of these comments is irrelevant to whether the Bioware guy will respond or not.  Fact is, that at the time of his comments his linkedin profile said he was employed there so in the public eye, he IS employed there and Bioware needs to respond.


 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I really wish companies would stop firing people based on "controversies" that will die the minute the next twitter idiot decides to open his mouth.

Why fire a (possibly?) productive employee when the outcome of not firing them will be close to negligible? Just mention the usual "this employees opinions are not our own" and move on, or do we really expect every company employee to have the same opinions as the company's board?

Because very few employees are irreplaceable and Bioware can lose sales and reputation through inaction.

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Quote
The gag order can be inferred by the absence of developer feedback to reviews.

The United States, in its first 160-ish years of history had thirty-one Presidents, none of whom sought a third term.  We can therefore infer that term limits existed on that office from its inception through 1940.

Facts™ and Logic™

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Quote
The gag order can be inferred by the absence of developer feedback to reviews.

The United States, in its first 160-ish years of history had thirty-one Presidents, none of whom sought a third term.  We can therefore infer that term limits existed on that office from its inception through 1940.

Facts™ and Logic™

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 09:32:28 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
So you do understand why you can't assume the existence of clauses in a contract that you've never seen, based on the history of (in)action of other people who may or may not have been bound by a similar contract.  :yes:
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 09:34:12 pm by BlueFlames »

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
twitter is absolute ****ing cancer and we'd be better off if everyone dumb enough to get caught up in its self-perpetuating cancer of culture war outrage (i am looking very directly at you, the e, you should know better than the passive aggressive 'i know this is abhorrent but i also think the people calling it out are gamergate so i have to defend it' routine) woke up and got the **** off the site
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
So you do understand why you can't assume the existence of clauses in a contract that you've never seen, based on the history of (in)action of other people who may or may not have been bound by a similar contract.  :yes:

Sorry, wrong fallacy for you. Here's yours:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

The argument from ignorance applies more to The E
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 09:47:31 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
The only part that's lost in the comparison is that the U.S. Constitution, its amendments, and its history are public domain.  You don't know the terms of the Bioware employee's contract--unless I missed the part where you were employed by EA/Bioware around the same time and would likely have had a near-identical employment contract--so you don't know if the gag rule that you've dreamed up is actually a term of the contract or an unwritten tradition in the industry, kind of like the two-term limit on U.S. Presidents was an unwritten tradition, prior to the ratification of the twenty-second amendment.

Honestly, I've little doubt in my mind that EA/Bioware is an at-will employer who can fire employees and contractors without cause.

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
The only part that's lost in the comparison is that the U.S. Constitution, its amendments, and its history are public domain.

Thousands of employess from different companies across the industry is not equivalent to 31 presidents from a single institution.

You don't know the terms of the Bioware employee's contract--unless I missed the part where you were employed by EA/Bioware around the same time and would likely have had a near-identical employment contract--so you don't know if the gag rule that you've dreamed up is actually a term of the contract or an unwritten tradition in the industry

Oh there's that appeal from ignorance along with a burden of proof requiring super-specific requirements.


 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
request a forum rule banning fallacy-slinging
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
The only part that's lost in the comparison is that the U.S. Constitution, its amendments, and its history are public domain.

Thousands of employess from different companies across the industry is not equivalent to 31 presidents from a single institution.

I'm not proposing any manner of statistical analysis in my posts, so I'm not sure why you're waffling on about sample sizes.

Oh there's that appeal from ignorance along with a burden of proof requiring super-specific requirements.

Yes, I think it is a reasonable burden of proof to require someone demonstrate that they have knowledge of a contract's language, before accepting assertions from that person about that contract.  Having specifically been employed by EA/Bioware was an example of how one might acquire such knowledge of their employment contracts.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
It's not uncommon for employers to assume tact (meaning common bloody decency) from an employee advertises the fact that they're employed by a high profile company in their profile.   Local government employ such terms in an employment contract as do many media companies.

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
The only part that's lost in the comparison is that the U.S. Constitution, its amendments, and its history are public domain.

Thousands of employess from different companies across the industry is not equivalent to 31 presidents from a single institution.

I'm not proposing any manner of statistical analysis in my posts, so I'm not sure why you're waffling on about sample sizes.

Of course you're not sure, why would someone arguing in bad faith try to understand the other person's points at any time?


Oh there's that appeal from ignorance along with a burden of proof requiring super-specific requirements.

Yes, I think it is a reasonable burden of proof to require someone demonstrate that they have knowledge of a contract's language, before accepting assertions from that person about that contract.  Having specifically been employed by EA/Bioware was an example of how one might acquire such knowledge of their employment contracts.

First you lay out unreasonable requirements, and now you try to mischaracterize them in an effort to prove they are reasonable.  Amusing

Video game contracts across most if not all professional companies include a confidentiality clause in the sense that employees cannot discuss the projects they are working on, even down to the name of it, with people as close to them as their own spouse.  It is not unreasonable to assume that this clause extends to, or encompasses, discussing the game in a public space with respect to reviews or other opinions.  This combined with the lack of evidence to the contrary is enough to prove their existence beyond reasonable doubt .






 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
No, what I'm trying to convey here but obviously failing, is that if it is possible that the people who share their thoughts do so in an irresponsible manner throughout these social media sites, and unlike you, may well fail eggregiously in many situations, it is also possible that the reaction to these outputs is also irrational, irresponsible, out of proportion.

What I am suggesting is that the latter case is definitely an irrational one, a destructive, horrible one that we should acknowledge and fight against

You're characterizing and judging individual actions as a collective whole, that's flawed reasoning.  One individual responding a single time to a comment he/she disagrees with is not "out of proportion", nor is that individual's comment necessarily irrational.  That individual is certainly not responsible for other people who respond in kind either.  As such you cannot collectively just these individuals.

You can't fault an normal individual for sharing a tweet either, as that's basic functionality of the system. Nor can you fault someone for reporting these comments to a large number of people.

The only people can find fault with are those individuals who have a large audience, share these comments and call upon people to act or think in a certain manner.  In other words, you can find fault with people who are inciting others to mob or riot - just like in the real world.

Just to say that I obviously agree with all of this, and this is why I called it systemic. Of course, we can blame it on the ways twitter works, or we can take responsibility and try to dampen / take to account all of these systemic effects both in our perception of events and the way we interact with them.

I do agree that twitter is borderline cancer, but I still love it :D

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Removing the 140 limit hasn't contained the basic issue that people still can type faster than think.

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I do agree that twitter is borderline cancer, but I still love it :D
It's probably what actually killed TB
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them