Author Topic: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)  (Read 5527 times)

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I do agree that twitter is borderline cancer, but I still love it :D
It's probably what actually killed TB

Must be some kind of Twittumor then :warp:

 

Offline The E

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
twitter is absolute ****ing cancer and we'd be better off if everyone dumb enough to get caught up in its self-perpetuating cancer of culture war outrage (i am looking very directly at you, the e, you should know better than the passive aggressive 'i know this is abhorrent but i also think the people calling it out are gamergate so i have to defend it' routine) woke up and got the **** off the site

Yes, PH, that is definitely what is going on here. The only reason why I would defend someone's right to say bad things about dead people is because he's on my side of the culture war. It's got nothing to do with me being tired of outrage mongering myself, no definitely not.
I saw behaviour that, while not politically correct, was also very insignificant and when all is said and done, not even that offensive. Social media is something we need to learn how to deal with, and part of that is learning to differentiate between statements made that are definitely abhorrent, and things we just kinda dislike and wouldn't make ourselves. I'm not going to claim that seeing who was suddenly all up in righteous fury about Crooks' writings didn't influence my stance. It did. But it wasn't a deciding factor.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Watching how part of the internet has reacted to TB's death has been pretty abhorrent...
This for example:

I too found it weird that Casey Hudson had to issue an apology for something a contractor not working for Bioware said.

You know full well why Hudson did that: it’s a zero-cost gesture that will hopefully placate the outrage machine. Much like firing employees who complain about immigrants or pronouns on twitter, oh, but in that case, it’s just a private company exercising their right to make hiring decisions and it’s not our place to critique the mechanisms that lead up to it.

And here you are insisting that gleefully celebrating a man’s death because you disliked him as an internet figurehead ‘isn’t that offensive’? Why do you feel the need to do this! I too think Crooks is a nobody who isn’t worth caring about, who gamergaters have dredged up in a desperate and cynical attempt at scoring some points on the back of a tragedy, but for ****’s sake I don’t feel the need to minimise what he did. What on Earth do you consider offensive? Jokes about dongles?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 09:22:29 am by Phantom Hoover »
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
When compared to open sexism or racism, nothing in Crooks' statements registers as offensive to me. Distasteful or objectionable, sure, but in a very ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sort of way, as far as I am concerned.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
So are you even against outrage mongering or just outrage mongering when it’s not directed at perceived sexism or racism?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I'm starting to think that "outrage mongering", like "clickbait", is a term exclusively reserved for things one disagrees with.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I like to think I am capable of objecting to it even when it’s on ‘my side’, but if you can’t then I strongly suggest you get the hell off twitter, and that everyone else do the same.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I don't see why a company should have to apologize for statements a former employee or contractor has made

Once again, where do you have any proof that this happened?
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Offline The E

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I don't see why a company should have to apologize for statements a former employee or contractor has made

Once again, where do you have any proof that this happened?

Fine. I retract all my statements as having been made in error, because clearly what Hudson did was not an apology and therefore none of what I said had any basis in reality whatsoever.

Except I don't, because even the act of having to distance themselves from a (former) contractor shouldn't be necessary; Also, if you read the comments surrounding Hudson's statement, it's clear that there are people out for blood here who will not be satisfied (or who claim that they won't be) until Crooks and others have been publically crucified and driven out of game development entirely.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
And? There are always idiots. Doesn't mean anyone listened to them.

Where is the proof that Hudson didn't choose of his own volition to simply distance himself because he didn't want people thinking that Crooks was saying things that were commonly said at his workplace? You were quick to point out everyone else's assumptions but you seem to be basing your argument on a few assumptions too.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I think The_E has already stated multiple times that he has concluded this kind of mob pitchforking to be bad, regardless of the direction. Trying to pin him down on this because there's some kind of "suspicion" that it's a tribalistic stance seems very unconstructive to me. For my part, I think his stance is very clear.

And? There are always idiots. Doesn't mean anyone listened to them.

Given how we all know these mobs can go full ballistic mode if you blink the wrong direction, I totally believe Hudson did it to appease the mob before the **** could even think of hitting the fan.

 

Offline Enioch

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Also, keep in mind that while Crooks seems to have been an ex-employee, his social media profiles still named him as a Bioware game designer.

Hudson's specific mention of Crooks status as an ex-employee is, I believe, significant.

Also, this discussion seems to be getting personal again. Joy. :doubt:
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I wander off for 24 hours and the whole thread goes to ****.

request a forum rule banning fallacy-slinging

GRANTED.  At least for this thread.

Also, I really should not have to say this to this group AGAIN but it perfectly possible for everyone to have a discussion about something controversial without slinging around personal attacks and insinuations.  If you can't discuss a ****ing Internet drama topic without attacking the other people in a forum specifically designed to isolate and minimize Internet drama, then the thread is going to get closed.  I just read the last few pages since my last post and I really have very little idea what the hell is actually being discussed at this point - apparently wild guesses about contract law?
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
I actually think this thread is pretty civil by HLP standards. Of course that's not anything to be proud of. But people are at least still talking with each other and not at each other this far into a thread. Though maybe that's just because more than one conversation is happening at the same time inflating the post count.

I wouldn't want a fallacy rule simply because I know it would be just another rule to be selectively applied even though it wouldn't effect me because I don't do it.

Yeah, I got confused a while back as well. I've failed to get a grasp on what Luis' position is.

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
OK so I looked at the OP again and I seriously want to object to this:

David Crooks said, pretty directly, that TotalBiscuit dying slowly and in terrible pain of cancer at the age of 33 was a good thing.

When compared to open sexism or racism, nothing in Crooks' statements registers as offensive to me. Distasteful or objectionable, sure, but in a very ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sort of way, as far as I am concerned.

How can you say that, man? I read some of TB's accounts of his last weeks and god ****ing damn if you can read them and still not find it 'offensive' to wish that on anyone because you saw them as enemies in an internet gaming culture war then I'm not sure you're the person I thought you were.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
You look at a statement that makes a joke about how the world felt like a little bit better since John Bain has passed away and don't see how people might take issue with that? It's a cancer joke. There's better ways you can have this discussion.

We could talk about the hypocrisy inherent in the "Free speech warriors" of the internet and how it isn't about free speech but simply about being able to bully others without any repercussion. You don't need to make that argument via this particular case. There's hundreds of examples in videogames, there's many examples in contemporary politics in the US, there's examples *on this very website* whether they relate to someone coming out as a transwoman on the politics board or people who make jokes about Carrie Fisher's passing. You don't need to pick this particular ditch to die in whilst you're surrounded by bloody mountains to stand on.

We could even have an entirely separate discussion about John Bain and how he was hardly a saint, and his inability to deal with his own popularity damaged a lot of people who didn't deserve that (as well as his own health, for all that matters now). That's okay too, there's a nuanced discussion in there that is worth having. I could point to Laura Kate Dale, for instance. Always worth it.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
David Crooks said, pretty directly, that TotalBiscuit dying slowly and in terrible pain of cancer at the age of 33 was a good thing.

Bear in mind that although not as direct, Mike Jungbluth also said that it was OK to revel in TB's death. And he's the one being held up by The E as an example of someone who got unfairly criticised. Here's a piece of advice, if you're revelling in anyone's death, you've probably gone too far. If you're telling people that it's OK to do that, expect people to revel in your own misfortune.


Also, The E and Luis, are you going to complain about this?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44294632
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 03:29:27 am by karajorma »
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Offline The E

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
How can you say that, man? I read some of TB's accounts of his last weeks and god ****ing damn if you can read them and still not find it 'offensive' to wish that on anyone because you saw them as enemies in an internet gaming culture war then I'm not sure you're the person I thought you were.

Also, The E and Luis, are you going to complain about this?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44294632

I'm going to lump these two together because they are more or less the same question.
I don't find Crooks' statements to be offensive enough to take action over because, as far as I am aware, it's not part of some larger anti-youtuber agenda on his part. He's just one guy (justifiably) angry at another guy. His statements were certainly crass and not something I would have posted in his place, but being crass and tasteless once does not, to me, mean Crooks now needs to be shunned and never be invited to polite company again.
As for Barr: That tweet that got her show cancelled wasn't a one-off. Her career revival (as far as I know the timeline) was partially due to her positioning herself as a Trump supporter; As I understand it, her show was based around portraying the "real" life of Trump supporters. Her off-show persona was and is largely based around not just being a Trump supporter, but being a really fervent one: There was no pro-Trump conspiracy theory too stupid for her to share and boost, and seemingly only few opinions too racist for her to adopt. Akalabeth's statements that it is permissible to fire someone over social media statements if those statements harm the company that is paying you are applicable here (whereas I do not believe they were in Crooks' case): Barr was one of the stars of the network. When her statements are promoted by the usual suspects, the name of her show and the station it airs on are linked to her, and can thus be more easily read as a sign of the network's tacit approval of her other comments.

So, we have several key differences here: Barr is a media star, her show being promoted by ABC, and her refound fame getting her airtime elsewhere. Crooks is a contractor who was or is employed by Bioware and EA, who noone has ever heard of before or likely will again. Barr is promoting racist causes and conspiracy theories, Crooks is angry at TotalBiscuit. Barr has made many objectionable statements over the past months, Crooks made one.

I think that Barr's behaviour and statements are properly offensive, as any cause that is built around stoking hatred against groups of people because of prejudice and bigotry is, to me, much more dangerous than one person revelling at the fate of another because of things that other person has done.

PH, I am not sure where you got the idea that just because I find the reactions to Crooks tweets overblown, I am also condoning and supporting his statements. As I said at least once here, my opinions about TB don't matter. Whether or not I agree with Crooks doesn't change how I feel about the way this affair has unfolded.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 
Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
Barr has made many objectionable statements over the past months, Crooks made one.

Something tells me that both of these statements are either guesswork or based on second-hand interpretation.  Or did you personally verify that Crook's twitter contained no other offensive comments prior to it being made private?

 

Offline The E

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Re: Internet Drama, part infinity+1 (Split from TotalBiscuit has died)
No, I haven't. But I have also not seen any of the "look at this guy, he was an asshole ALL THE TIME" posts in the drama threads that were made when this blew up; Knowing how these outrage storms work, I would've expected them to exist if Crooks had made such statements.

As for Barr, well, here's an article from last year that you can read with your own human eyes.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 07:34:06 am by The E »
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns