Author Topic: Picard  (Read 3355 times)

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Offline Novachen

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*cough* Nemesis *cough*

Had still some strong scenes.
Because the TNG movies were more about Data in general IMO, it was actually not too bad.

Sure, it could be much better... if they had kept most of the deleted scenes in the movie.
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*cough* Nemesis *cough*

... it was actually not too bad.

It was bad enough that the entire franchise went on hiatus for several years and needed a reboot upon its return.  That's pretty bad.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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To be fair... The franchise had been in decline for a few years beforehand.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Yeah, since they started making TNG movies.

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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First Contact was their last "Winner".  After that the even-number-curse was broken... but not in a good way.
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Offline Luis Dias

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I will never understand the reverence towards First Contact. It's a dumb stupid movie.

 

Offline The E

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I will never understand the reverence towards First Contact. It's a dumb stupid movie.

It has a pretty decent script, all the actors are into it and seem to be having fun, the plot is decent and builds off of TNG's single best plot thread, the action setpieces are good, the effects still hold up pretty well.... It's a good movie. It's not a masterpiece on the scale of Undiscovered Country or Wrath of Khan, but it is, at worst, serviceable. The weakest element in it is Alice Krige as the Borg Queen (And that's only the weakest element because it made the borg less interesting, not because of any weakness on Krige's part or how she was used in the story). Out of the four TNG movies, it is easily and with quite a margin the best one; Personally, I would rank it directly behind Undiscovered Country in terms of overall quality.
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Offline Luis Dias

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You should rewatch it with your brain turned on. I agree with you it's the best TNG movie (I have yet to watch Nemesis, but I will believe everyone else on the matter of its overall badness), that it is somewhat fun and campy, but the amount of sheer stupidity in that script is beyond words.

 

Offline The E

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I last saw it a year or two ago. I stand by my opinions :P
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the amount of sheer stupidity in that script is beyond words.
I'd argue that's par for the course with Star Trek (and compared to the likes of Nemesis, it looks downright smart), and far from being the worst that Trek can do in that regard. Remember, episodes like Best of Both Worlds or films like Wrath of Khan are the exception, not the rule.
Then again, I am usually willing to excuse stupid stories if they make up for it in action or comedy.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Even Star Trek V has an incredible tight script compared to FC, let alone all the other 5 TOS movies.


I wished I was being facetious. Again, this harkens back at my lack of undertanding about how people really think FC is a good movie. I just don't get it.

 
First Contact works best as a standalone movie.  It is a good sci-fi action movie, taken on its own.  In the wider context of Star Trek, it doesn't fit the themes; it does a disservice to the Borg, and it set half the cast on the road of wanting to be action stars in the subsequent Trek films.  I blame First Contact for the terrible dune buggy scene in Nemesis.

Hot take:  The TNG films peaked with Generations.  While it undermined the send-off that the TOS cast got in The Undiscovered Country, it was an original concept that executed at the level of a good, two-hour long TNG episode.  And, you know, why are you buying tickets to a Trek movie, if not to watch some Star Trek?  Don't @ me.

 

Online Colonol Dekker

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It had loads of action and featured that whole discovery of warp drive thing.

Win in my book.

Plus time travel.
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Even Star Trek V has an incredible tight script compared to FC
I will admit to not be aware as to what constitutes a "tight script" from a film-making perspective, so I can't really comment on that.


Quote
how people really think FC is a good movie. I just don't get it.
That however, is a good summary of how I feel regarding Star Trek 4...
As for 8, well it has the good fortune how a) being an even-numbered Trek film back when the "even/odd Trek film" meme was a thing, and b) being nested between the godawaful ST 7 & 9.

Throw in an established cool popular villain (queen antics aside), loads of good-looking action (action-movie logic aside), that whole discovery of warp drive thing, plus some good performances from the cast, and you've got a solid recipe for a popular film.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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A tight script means everything that's in the movie is there for a reason and has some sort of payoff. Think The Dark Knight... Where even the lawyer who tries to blackmail Bruce Wayne early in the film later appears as part of Joker's schemes. Everything in the film pushes the plot forward in some meaningful way.

It's been a while since I watched FC, but I don't recall much waste in terms of scenes. So I'd agree it has a tight script.
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Offline Buckshee Rounds

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It's down to the feel of the film too. Even Wrath of Khan had one or two silly plot elements (Ceti Alpha V being Ceti Alpha VI comes to mind), but you can suspend your disbelief because it's a brilliant film. It's a swashbuckling high seas adventure, but in space. First Contact tries to ape a lot of that, somewhat unsuccessfully, and comes off as a dumb albeit very enjoyable action film. The TNG films are otherwise mostly pish.

And I do agree the franchise has been in a decline ever since. Enterprise ruined much of the canon, but it also tried very hard at times to be faithful and congruent, where I feel Discovery really hasn't been. It's also just downright unwatchable at times and I really worry about having the same staff working on ST: Picard.

Ultimately it doesn't matter though, as far as I see it, Star Trek has been tarnished for all time in much the same way Star Wars was ruined by the prequels. They'll never go away and they can never be fixed. Ever. It's like finding out your best friend was actually eating babies for as long as you've known them. So **** it, if it's good then that's good and if it's not then it doesn't matter because it's wrecked anyway and I'm past caring any more.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Ok, even I will never say that Generations is the peak TNG movie. Let's say you found my limits there.

Regarding tightness in FC, the whole story is bull****. The Borg want to invade Earth, but then they actually want to go back in time to invade Earth when there's no Federation, but then they actually want to stop First Contact, but then what the queen had in mind was actually to persuade Data to join the ranks. Those are four different plots and villain intents, they are not interchangeable.

If you want to invade Earth you go with multiple cubes, not one.
If you want to go back in time and invade Earth when it's vulnerable, do so far away from any nagging starfleet ship that may enter your slipstream.
If you want to stop First Contact, you... don't need to. If you invade Earth ten years before that, there is no First Contact.
If you wanted Data to join the ranks, weren't there better ways to do so?

Notice, I haven't touched the whole Queen debacle.

 

Offline karajorma

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To be fair

Quote
If you want to invade Earth you go with multiple cubes, not one.

Last time they tried they only sent one cube and they damn near succeeded. And this time they still come pretty damn close.

Quote
If you want to go back in time and invade Earth when it's vulnerable, do so far away from any nagging starfleet ship that may enter your slipstream.

Going back in time appears to be a backup plan they tried when plan A failed. Given that the other choice was to be destroyed, it's not a bad plan. Once again, it almost succeeded.

As for the rest of it, yeah, I tend to agree.
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Offline Luis Dias

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It's not that you cannot argue around every instance of the plot, which I guess you can to a point, it's the constant barrage of unjustified turns akin to children's playful narratives "I'm gonna destroy you with this giant robot! Ahah you wished, my powerful gun smashes it to pieces! Oh yeah? Surprise I have a hidden sphere I pulled from the robot's ass! Oh yeah? my ship is gonna football it! Surprise my sphere TRAVELS THROUGH TIME ahahah you didn't see that comin! Oh yeah? My ship will follow you and blow you to pieces! Oh yeah?

By the time they change their plans by the fifth or sixth time, I've already checked out from the movie.

 

Offline The E

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Regarding tightness in FC, the whole story is bull****. The Borg want to invade Earth, but then they actually want to go back in time to invade Earth when there's no Federation, but then they actually want to stop First Contact, but then what the queen had in mind was actually to persuade Data to join the ranks. Those are four different plots and villain intents, they are not interchangeable.

... A villain having having multiple plans and approaches is a problem now?

I'm sorry, I really can't wrap my head around this: If any of those plans interfered with each other, or if the script had forgotten about any of them at any point, then you might have a point, but it doesn't.

Quote
If you want to go back in time and invade Earth when it's vulnerable, do so far away from any nagging starfleet ship that may enter your slipstream.
If you want to stop First Contact, you... don't need to. If you invade Earth ten years before that, there is no First Contact.
If you wanted Data to join the ranks, weren't there better ways to do so?

Oh no, the villains' plan has a weakness, what a glaring issue!

I mean, if you're arguing on that level, pretty much any story where villains are thwarted is nonsense and bad. Why doesn't Obadiah Stane just shoot Tony Stark, or hire a thug to do that?
Why doesn't Khan just ram the Reliant into the Enterprise to disable her, then kill Kirk in one-on-one combat?
Why doesn't the Empire make sure the reactor room of the second Death Star is thoroughly shielded and armored first?

It's not that you cannot argue around every instance of the plot, which I guess you can to a point, it's the constant barrage of unjustified turns akin to children's playful narratives "I'm gonna destroy you with this giant robot! Ahah you wished, my powerful gun smashes it to pieces! Oh yeah? Surprise I have a hidden sphere I pulled from the robot's ass! Oh yeah? my ship is gonna football it! Surprise my sphere TRAVELS THROUGH TIME ahahah you didn't see that comin! Oh yeah? My ship will follow you and blow you to pieces! Oh yeah?

By the time they change their plans by the fifth or sixth time, I've already checked out from the movie.

...

Yeah, no, I don't see a single instance of an "unjustified turn" in this movie. Or, for that matter, any real change of plans.
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Let there be monsters and let there be pain
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