Author Topic: Picard  (Read 10634 times)

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Offline Trivial Psychic

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You know whose story has never been fully resolved in Next Gen... Commander Sela.  If this takes place post-Romulus-destruction, she could be out for blood... if she's still alive.
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Offline Buckshee Rounds

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Boy that sure is a lot of shooting and explosions.

The quantity of shooting and explosions are the gauge by which you measure the worth of the series, it's a central theme of Star Trek and always has been.

Said noone. Ever.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Ok, I'll confess—I'm totally a glutton for the fan-service of bringing in as many of the old characters as possible. I was literally going "Aww!" for those final scenes. ;)
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 
Yeah, aside super huge explosions a decent amount of Fanservice is needed in NuST to win people for The Plot. ;)

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Picard is a ninja swordsman now, get'em Jean Luc!

 
I've seen the first ep now.

My thoughts (SPOILER ALERT):
Spoiler:
I loved the opening shot with the camera closing in on the Enterprise D (which had some interesting design modifications) and going through the window into to the room.. the kind of shot you always wanted to see as a kid watching TNG but knew they couldn't really do effectively (well not without spending some heavy money lol, which is kind of ironic considering the 60s failed trek pilot sort of has a camera through bridge window shot)..

I enjoyed the whole episode but I feel like I can't quite give judgement yet. I need to know more about what's going on and need to see how things pan out story wise.

Also the zero mention of Lal and Lore seems a bit strange in a world where the daystrom institute desperately wanted to replicate Data. I mean what happened to their parts after they were disassembled? B4 was in a drawer so where's the Lal and Lore drawers haha?

First thought was.. did the writers forget them?.. but that seems unlikely consider they brought Hugh back which means they clearly remember Descent 1 & 2 which Lore was in. The whole Daughter 2.0 storyline suggests the Lal episode is something they know too. Plus Frakes directed that one and he's involved in Picard.
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Offline Luis Dias

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I liked it, mostly due to the production values and the acting. The plot is the most ridiculous thing ever, which is mostly expected from the dudes who brought us nuTrek.

Spoilers follow. Where's the spoiler tag? Oh here it is.

Spoiler:
The Federation is apparently Trumpian now, doesn't give a **** if a whole species needs help after a "galaxy threatening supernova" destroyed their home planet. And robots made a terminator twist and destroyed a shipyard, because that's very intelligent and totally what a robot rebellion would do, very smart. And Data has two daughters now, because of course he has, and the Romulans are building a borg cube because of course they are, I wonder if they are going to bring back Locutus, because of course they ****ing will and I'm already fuming at it.

Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the sets and the acting. I like old Picard. If only they kept the show small and witty, Picard on a slow detective inquiry, talking with people and figuring things out. Ah, that'd have been nice. I guess they pitched him "Logan but with Picard on it", and he didn't know better to realise it was a con.

 

Offline The E

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I liked it, mostly due to the production values and the acting. The plot is the most ridiculous thing ever, which is mostly expected from the dudes who brought us nuTrek.

Really? More ridiculous than [insert list of truly stupid TNG episodes here]?

Quote
Spoiler:
The Federation is apparently Trumpian now, doesn't give a **** if a whole species needs help after a "galaxy threatening supernova" destroyed their home planet.

What the show definitely is going for is to juxtapose Picard's ideals of what Starfleet should be with what it is. That's actually something of a recurring theme going back to early TNG; What has definitely changed is the framing: In TNG, it was always single officers that were morally corrupt, never the institution.
Now, it seems, the curtain of being in the comfort and safety of the Federation flagship has been pulled away, and Picard has to deal with the fact that the Jellicoes, Nechayevs and "Measure of a Man"-era Maddoxes are far more representative of Starfleet than he himself is.

Also, that species was the Romulans. That the more distrustful amongst the Starfleet leadership are less willing to embark on a huge effort to save one of the Federations traditional rivals is, perhaps not that surprising (but do contrast this with ST6 and the Khitomer catastrophe!).

Quote
Spoiler:
And robots made a terminator twist and destroyed a shipyard, because that's very intelligent and totally what a robot rebellion would do, very smart.

Are you seriously complaining that the show didn't give you the full details of 20 years of in-universe time in the 46 minutes of runtime it had for its first episode?

Seriously, if you could explain to me why "this show has unexplained mysteries in its pilot episode" is a bad thing now, I would much appreciate it.

Quote
Spoiler:
And Data has two daughters now, because of course he has,

He doesn't. A Starfleet officer named Bruce Maddox, who was working on replicating Soong-type androids as far back as TNG Season 2's "A measure of a man" and who regularly conversed with Data has built two androids using one of Data's paintings as inspiration for their looks.

While you're explaining things, could you explain why you not paying attention to exposition is something the show did wrong?

Quote
Spoiler:
and the Romulans are building a borg cube because of course they are,

There's a difference between "experimenting on a wreck" and "building", I think.

Quote
Spoiler:
I wonder if they are going to bring back Locutus, because of course they ****ing will and I'm already fuming at it.

Hmm, yes, the most traumatic event in Picard's life being a factor in a series literally called Star Trek Picard sure would be bad.

Quote
I guess they pitched him "Logan but with Picard on it", and he didn't know better to realise it was a con.

Are you suggesting that Stewart conned himself, then?
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
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Offline Luis Dias

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I liked it, mostly due to the production values and the acting. The plot is the most ridiculous thing ever, which is mostly expected from the dudes who brought us nuTrek.

Really? More ridiculous than [insert list of truly stupid TNG episodes here]?

Hey, don't make me defend stupid TNG episodes. Stupid is stupid. The thing is, shows like this aren't done by episode any more, they have one congruent story, not just an arc, but a whole story, so I'm less sympathetic to the plight of having a real stupid one episode or two in a whole season. There isn't that anymore, either the *whole* season story makes sense or it doesn't.

I think that has somewhat ruined these shows for me, because I believe they feel they have to amp up the stakes and have it always be about SAVING THE GALAXY FROM A SUPERNOVA or something silly like that, instead of having multiple stories that can be smaller and interesting in their own cute way.

Quote
What the show definitely is going for is to juxtapose Picard's ideals of what Starfleet should be with what it is. That's actually something of a recurring theme going back to early TNG; What has definitely changed is the framing: In TNG, it was always single officers that were morally corrupt, never the institution.
Now, it seems, the curtain of being in the comfort and safety of the Federation flagship has been pulled away, and Picard has to deal with the fact that the Jellicoes, Nechayevs and "Measure of a Man"-era Maddoxes are far more representative of Starfleet than he himself is.

Yes, I don't like it. It makes it, let's say the word, canon, that the future is just like the present, with added pew pew colors and woosh woosh ships. I liked DS9 just like any other guy, but I loved TNG's weird sense of how the show is set in a future where things we still struggle to understand nowadays are just taken for granted in the future. How racism was so convincingly destroyed it didn't even register in many ways to the crew. Apparently, that idea is out the window now, we will talk about "our enemies" just like Trump does today. This may be better for the writers who are good at drama, but then it just makes Star Trek just like everything else, and we lose something unique.

Quote
Also, that species was the Romulans. That the more distrustful amongst the Starfleet leadership are less willing to embark on a huge effort to save one of the Federations traditional rivals is, perhaps not that surprising (but do contrast this with ST6 and the Khitomer catastrophe!).

That occurred to me as well! Remember that Kirk in that movie was indeed a reactionary curmudgeon that nonetheless went with the program, set out by the Federation, to make the peace treaty happen.

Quote
Are you seriously complaining that the show didn't give you the full details of 20 years of in-universe time in the 46 minutes of runtime it had for its first episode?

Yes, because plot in fiction doesn't work like reality. You can't just throw that bombshell and wait we just accept it at face value. I mean, I am accepting it for the sake of the story, but I just have a million questions about it, and it just smells lazy as ****. I almost had a PTSD from Mass Effect's ending be about how organics can't really deal with robots out of nowhere. Discovery also had its story about a runaway AI going to DESTROY THE ORGANICS IN ALL THE GALAXY (sigh), so it's like these writers are really pushing that viewpoint. It's like they read Dune last weekend and really wanted to write the butlerian jihad onto the star trek universe.

Quote
Seriously, if you could explain to me why "this show has unexplained mysteries in its pilot episode" is a bad thing now, I would much appreciate it.

More like, "I recognize all these lazy JJ type mystery boxes and how half of them will be forgotten, a quarter lazily explained away and I guess we'll have some good answers about the rest".


Quote
He doesn't. A Starfleet officer named Bruce Maddox, who was working on replicating Soong-type androids as far back as TNG Season 2's "A measure of a man" and who regularly conversed with Data has built two androids using one of Data's paintings as inspiration for their looks.

While you're explaining things, could you explain why you not paying attention to exposition is something the show did wrong?

Oh come on, I wasn't being literal, but I was very much being precise. Regardless of the reproduction methods, she (they) is (are) clearly written as his daughters.

Quote
There's a difference between "experimenting on a wreck" and "building", I think.

Your theory is that this is a research site within a borg cube wreck? Ok, that makes sense. The plot will revolve around salvaged borg tech.

Quote
Hmm, yes, the most traumatic event in Picard's life being a factor in a series literally called Star Trek Picard sure would be bad.

Playin the hits, lazily. I bet they'll end the show with him playing the flute. And I can't quite wrap my head around that birthday banner. Didn't he hate that stuff anyway? Wasn't the Enterprise D destroyed? Did he choose to save that banner instead of that statue he just threw away like no biggie in Generations? Just giggling here.

Quote
Are you suggesting that Stewart conned himself, then?

Con is a harsh word, but still. I'm somewhat pre-convinced this is a bad story written lazily and wink-wink-ly. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise by the show though!

 

Offline The E

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Yes, I don't like it. It makes it, let's say the word, canon, that the future is just like the present, with added pew pew colors and woosh woosh ships. I liked DS9 just like any other guy, but I loved TNG's weird sense of how the show is set in a future where things we still struggle to understand nowadays are just taken for granted in the future. How racism was so convincingly destroyed it didn't even register in many ways to the crew. Apparently, that idea is out the window now, we will talk about "our enemies" just like Trump does today. This may be better for the writers who are good at drama, but then it just makes Star Trek just like everything else, and we lose something unique.

Gonna disagree there. The main thing for me here is that, in TNG, Utopia never seemed to require work. The Federation and Starfleet were good and just with some outliers that were sooner or later uncovered and punished, but on the whole, it was safe and secure. That, to a degree, mirrors the "End of History" thing that was around during the 90s; back then (at least to me in my teenage years), the world seemed safe and secure and largely free of bad actors.
But that was never true, was it. Utopia does require work, it does require constant vigilance lest the more unsavory sides of our nature reassert themselves. DS9 explored this, now Picard does too, but with a lot more context to do it in.
Star Trek was always a reflection of and on contemporary matters. I would not want to see that discarded.


Quote
Yes, because plot in fiction doesn't work like reality. You can't just throw that bombshell and wait we just accept it at face value.

What? It's the pilot episode to a 10 episode series! Why do you want the pilot to explain everything to you, when there are still hours to come in which to do the explaining in?

Quote
More like, "I recognize all these lazy JJ type mystery boxes and how half of them will be forgotten, a quarter lazily explained away and I guess we'll have some good answers about the rest".

I guess the difference between us is that I am not prone to passing judgment on a series before it's over, or calling plot elements I can deduce bad just because I can deduce them.

Quote
Oh come on, I wasn't being literal, but I was very much being precise. Regardless of the reproduction methods, she (they) is (are) clearly written as his daughters.

And?

Quote
Your theory is that this is a research site within a borg cube wreck? Ok, that makes sense. The plot will revolve around salvaged borg tech.

It's not a theory. It's a plot point from the 2009 Star Trek.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline Buckshee Rounds

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I agree with some of what you're saying, E, in that an exploration of Utopia's darker side could be an interesting idea. BUT, the execution thus far is lacking.

Spoiler:
I'm not convinced that all the plot elements are eventually going to lead somewhere. It feels very much like Discovery in that way. They're trying to establish da big stakes and it's just tiresome. There's only so many save the galaxy plot lines I can follow before I lose interest.

There was too much Discovery-style histrionics going on. The interaction between Daj (sp?) and Picard for instance. I get why Daj is emotional considering what she's been put through and the dilemma she's put under, but when she was killed I felt nothing and I ought to have felt something. Her death was supposed to be a big moment and it got nothing from me. I think if they had spent more time establishing the character over an episode or two it would've had much more impact. Hopefully I'll feel a bit more invested in the characters as the show goes on, but I'm not holding my breath.

The musical score is beautiful in places. It gets a bit over the top at times however, again mirroring Discovery's contrived melodrama.

There's that bit where Picard says, "I haven't been living, I've been waiting to die." It really contrasts heavily with The Inner Light, where he tells his daughter to 'live in the now, now is all we have'. I don't mind the character being put through his paces and developing in unexpected ways, but this to me feels like a step backwards.

EDIT: If those Romulan guys were trying to kidnap Daj then why couldn't they just beam her out? Bit of fridge logic there.

I think it's perfectly fair to judge the first episode. At the very least, it's the first chapter for yet another overarching story line, thus what is established here has much more bearing on how the season will play out.

I don't hate this show, there's a few things to like, but I'm so jaded with the franchise now that I honestly think Star Trek just needs to be put to rest. It's like a pet I love too much to see suffer any longer. Just put it down. Let it die with what dignity it has left.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 04:00:35 pm by Buckshee Rounds »

 
I don't hate this show, there's a few things to like, but I'm so jaded with the franchise now that I honestly think Star Trek just needs to be put to rest. It's like a pet I love too much to see suffer any longer. Just put it down. Let it die with what dignity it has left.

You can stop watching any time you like.  Nobody's going to put you into the Clockwork Orange chair and make you watch any Trek beyond the series/films you're nostalgic for.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Picard, is.... Oooooooooooooold.


I like his Irish (????) housekeeper, as it shows a leap forward since spock paved the way for alien / human blah blah.


Number one should've been a pastoral dog though   :o


 

Offline theperfectdrugsk

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Patrick Stewart loves pitbulls though, and therefore Picard loves pitbulls.

 

Offline karajorma

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I'm reserving judgement. There were signs of mystery boxes being presented to us, and after the flaming turd on the doorstep that was Discovery, I'm pretty wary of those. I liked most of what I saw.

I don't hate this show, there's a few things to like, but I'm so jaded with the franchise now that I honestly think Star Trek just needs to be put to rest. It's like a pet I love too much to see suffer any longer. Just put it down. Let it die with what dignity it has left.

You can stop watching any time you like.  Nobody's going to put you into the Clockwork Orange chair and make you watch any Trek beyond the series/films you're nostalgic for.

Try telling people that Star Wars Episodes 1-3 shouldn't count in a Star Wars discussion. If you stop watching you are basically out of the community because that **** still is considered canon. A lot of people would rather a franchise dies than having to watch the ****e in order to remain part of a community.
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Offline Turambar

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Try telling people that Star Wars Episodes 1-3 shouldn't count in a Star Wars discussion. If you stop watching you are basically out of the community because that **** still is considered canon.

I tell people that all the time.  People were surprised that I hadnt watched Clone Wars but they don't understand I have no use whatsoever for prequel-derived Star Wars.  It's generally understood that people who love Star Wars are the people who hate Star Wars the most.

A lot of people would rather a franchise dies than having to watch the ****e in order to remain part of a community.

I still hold out hope for a reboot.  There's too much good in Star Wars to just leave it how it is.  Now that we have watched the sequels and we know they haven't lived up to the old EU (instead of being closed-minded and assuming they wouldn't) the stage is set to just reset the whole thing.




On actual topic, I didn't see anything in Picard that set off 'bad writing' alarm bells, but they mostly haven't gotten to space yet.  There is one continuity break with the comic prequel to 'new star trek' where B4 actually did eventually 'become' Data, and was captain of the Enterprise.  I can't tell them they did it wrong in person, but it does make me sad, because Data as captain of the Enterprise would have been pretty special.  That itself is a little odd because Romulans working with Borg technology actually was in that prequel comic.  I skipped the 'this season on Picard' preview because I like being surprised by things, so I don't have any real speculation on what's coming.  Since we know Hue and Seven of Nine are coming back, I'm guessing the synthetic life angle will feature heavily.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 10:49:44 am by Turambar »
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline The E

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On actual topic, I didn't see anything in Picard that set off 'bad writing' alarm bells, but they mostly haven't gotten to space yet.  There is one continuity break with the comic prequel to 'new star trek' where B4 actually did eventually 'become' Data, and was captain of the Enterprise.  I can't tell them they did it wrong in person, but it does make me sad, because Data as captain of the Enterprise would have been pretty special.  That itself is a little odd because Romulans working with Borg technology actually was in that prequel comic.  I skipped the 'this season on Picard' preview because I like being surprised by things, so I don't have any real speculation on what's coming.  Since we know Hue and Seven of Nine are coming back, I'm guessing the synthetic life angle will feature heavily.

Star Trek, like Star Wars, has always operated on a "only the tv shows and films are canon, everything else is irrelevant" basis (and even there, ST was always very lax about enforcing canon or sticking to a "universe bible")
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Star wars TV shows inlcludes the 80s cartoon Droids I hope 👍👍

 
On actual topic, I didn't see anything in Picard that set off 'bad writing' alarm bells, but they mostly haven't gotten to space yet.  There is one continuity break with the comic prequel to 'new star trek' where B4 actually did eventually 'become' Data, and was captain of the Enterprise.  I can't tell them they did it wrong in person, but it does make me sad, because Data as captain of the Enterprise would have been pretty special.  That itself is a little odd because Romulans working with Borg technology actually was in that prequel comic.  I skipped the 'this season on Picard' preview because I like being surprised by things, so I don't have any real speculation on what's coming.  Since we know Hue and Seven of Nine are coming back, I'm guessing the synthetic life angle will feature heavily.

Star Trek, like Star Wars, has always operated on a "only the tv shows and films are canon, everything else is irrelevant" basis (and even there, ST was always very lax about enforcing canon or sticking to a "universe bible")


Hm, didn't George Lucas declare all of the EU Comics and books Canon roundabout 10-15 years ago?
I remember reading About it, a lot of 'fans' started a small riot because the EU stuff was for the most part Pretty bad back then (there are exceptions like Zahns trilogy) and contradicted the movies to some extend or gave stupid explanations to Events/myth in SW (even dumber then midichlorians).

 
Star Wars had different levels of canon.

As I understood it, stuff from higher levels were to be considered canon by lower levels, but works outside the main movie & TV canon were kinda free to pick what they considered canon on their own level or from lower levels.