Author Topic: Vasudan takeover - a theory  (Read 1927 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I would presume they have tech to handle that, I mean GTVA uses depleted uranium as armor on some ships...

Collapsed-core molybdenum even, which would be ungodly unstable.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I also love this kind of stuff, I just think that giving huge contracts to human corporations isn't as much a big problem as you see it, if anything they can expand their operations and profit even more. I like these simple details like running into lack of human resources by stretching their endeavours too thin and thus halting other military projects. What I'm not buying is this notion that the stocks of these companies grind to a halt. As far as I can see, whenever big corporations get these kinds of contracts, their stocks go up, not down. IOW, more demand never drives your stocks down, it's against all economic laws.

Now, it may well be that the terran military gets bogged down with these projects and simply is unable to keep up with the vasudans' investments on their own fleets. But not the corporations (sellers), the military (buyers).

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I think it’s an awesome idea. I haven’t really seen this explored before.

... it could use a few more acting characters and a lot less hypercompetence and/or hyperagency, no?
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nysa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline darkdaej

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Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I think it’s an awesome idea. I haven’t really seen this explored before.

... it could use a few more acting characters and a lot less hypercompetence and/or hyperagency, no?

Hey, gimme a break here, I'm just thinking out loud and using you as a sounding board :P  I'm still thinking the whole plot thread through.  I'll put some time on that during the weekend just for kicks :D

 

Offline darkdaej

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Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I also love this kind of stuff, I just think that giving huge contracts to human corporations isn't as much a big problem as you see it, if anything they can expand their operations and profit even more. I like these simple details like running into lack of human resources by stretching their endeavours too thin and thus halting other military projects. What I'm not buying is this notion that the stocks of these companies grind to a halt. As far as I can see, whenever big corporations get these kinds of contracts, their stocks go up, not down. IOW, more demand never drives your stocks down, it's against all economic laws.

Now, it may well be that the terran military gets bogged down with these projects and simply is unable to keep up with the vasudans' investments on their own fleets. But not the corporations (sellers), the military (buyers).


Well, I see Terran stocks stagnating further down the line because the project was tying up other things.  While I don't think Terrans lagged behind Vasudans in terms of quantity of hardware, I like to think the crap equipment (such as the Prometheus R and the clearly underwhelming Myrmidon) might have to do with economic stagnation.  Sure they talk about Nebula gas mining operations having issues in-game, but again, those could be explained due to economic woes. 

So of course when the project gets enacted, Terran corps get a huge stock boost.  But after 2 decades of working on the darn thing, anyone other than those directly involved in the Colossus' construction couldn't care less.  I'd argue it becomes a financial quagmire and the corporations involved may have doubts it will ever be finished (heck, a mere change in political leanings could lead to the whole thing being canned).

Investors would lose confidence in the corporations involved due to the uncertainty of the megaproject - especially if it's heavily classified (as is likely is given that the propaganda piece itself had a security clearance requirement)

One thing comes to mind:  How the hell do you keep this project a secret for 20 years?  With the tens of thousands of people involved? 

The GTVA must be lying through their teeth to explain away this massive spending...

 
Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I think it’s an awesome idea. I haven’t really seen this explored before.

... it could use a few more acting characters and a lot less hypercompetence and/or hyperagency, no?

I don't think so. Though I'm not 100% sure what you mean with "hyperagency" but as far as I can see that it's just economic and political rules at work. The same way you could describe the Euro-crysis as a conspiracy theory when it's just politcians playing their riffs on economic rules.

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I don't think so. Though I'm not 100% sure what you mean with "hyperagency" but as far as I can see that it's just economic and political rules at work. The same way you could describe the Euro-crysis as a conspiracy theory when it's just politcians playing their riffs on economic rules.

"Hyperagency" is when a character is able to affect every relevant element of a narrative, either themselves or by proxy; "hypercompetence" by contrast is when a character is always successful in their actions and/or always able to dicern an optimal course of action.

Both pose significant problems in storytelling as they negate sources of tension.
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nysa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 
Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I think your overplaying the role of the Colossus a bit though - sure it was extreme expensive but they also built dozens of other destroyers, corvs and whatever.

Whether the Myrmidon sucked - it might be simply that :v-old: altered the ships purpose and forgot to alter stats; on the other hand there's some discussion whether it sucked at all or whether it just takes more pilot skills to be useful: https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/GTF_Myrmidon#Veteran_Comments

While the Prom R is aweful there's no evidence that the Zods have better weapons - :v-old: simply didn't make any.

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One thing comes to mind:  How the hell do you keep this project a secret for 20 years?  With the tens of thousands of people involved? 

They didn't kept it a secret. They probably kept technical details secret and they didn't announced the first deployment for tactical reasons but the Colly vid says:

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In 2345, on the tenth anniversary of the Shivan attack on Ross 128, the Vasudan Emperor Khonsu II addressed the newly-formed GTVA General Assembly. The Emperor inaugurated an ambitious and unprecedented joint endeavor: the GTVA Colossus.

In the end it is a political project of the GTVA as a whole so GTVA (the gov - Terrans and Zods) will pay as much as it takes.

 
Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I don't think so. Though I'm not 100% sure what you mean with "hyperagency" but as far as I can see that it's just economic and political rules at work. The same way you could describe the Euro-crysis as a conspiracy theory when it's just politcians playing their riffs on economic rules.

"Hyperagency" is when a character is able to affect every relevant element of a narrative, either themselves or by proxy; "hypercompetence" by contrast is when a character is always successful in their actions and/or always able to dicern an optimal course of action.

Both pose significant problems in storytelling as they negate sources of tension.

Thanks for the explination. :) I don't think that it is the case here - unless one believes that Khonsu was the sole mastermind behind that. As far as it is depicted here the Vasudans gained more and more influence over the Terrans at the timeframe of several decades, and with increasing power new opportunities arrive that they can exploit and so forth.

 

Offline darkdaej

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Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
Yeah, forgot that Khonsu announced the Colossus publically. 

But regarding the Prom R...  Could it be that the gas shortage was not due to production problems, but the brunt of said production being shifted to the Colossus - a problem that keeps on going for years so this retrofit is developed.  Now of course both races would be stuck with it, but I'd argue Vasudan pilots feeling self-superior (you see this behavior on several occasions during tha campaign), they would prefer Vasudan-made weapons.  Again, requires some thinking, but I could see the Prom R being an issue that mostly affected Terrans who read the official spec sheet for the thing and thought it was actually better than Subachs.

 

Offline darkdaej

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Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I don't think so. Though I'm not 100% sure what you mean with "hyperagency" but as far as I can see that it's just economic and political rules at work. The same way you could describe the Euro-crysis as a conspiracy theory when it's just politcians playing their riffs on economic rules.

"Hyperagency" is when a character is able to affect every relevant element of a narrative, either themselves or by proxy; "hypercompetence" by contrast is when a character is always successful in their actions and/or always able to dicern an optimal course of action.

Both pose significant problems in storytelling as they negate sources of tension.

Thanks for the explination. :) I don't think that it is the case here - unless one believes that Khonsu was the sole mastermind behind that. As far as it is depicted here the Vasudans gained more and more influence over the Terrans at the timeframe of several decades, and with increasing power new opportunities arrive that they can exploit and so forth.

Not saying Khonsu is the sole mastermind, but under this conspiracy, he would be its leader.  Maybe Khonsu has hidden political affiliations with Vasudan supremacists prior to being made Emperor...

 
Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I think the Prom R (and it's tech desc) were simply :v-old: reason why not to give the player a really powerful weapon in the beginning.

 

Offline darkdaej

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Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I think the Prom R (and it's tech desc) were simply :v-old: reason why not to give the player a really powerful weapon in the beginning.

I understand we can rule things as "gameplay reasons", but that's part of the fun of trying to build lore.  Explaining all those "gameplay reasons" away :P

Of course we can't explain why Shivan weapons are so weak given they're canonically "too much".  That's just a way to keep the player from ragequitting on Easy difficulty :)

But I think that in the interest of world building, we should try to explain those gameplay quirks.  Volition could have given us just Subachs and Akhetons for the first act.  They chose to give us a retrofit Prometheus and put a reason as to why it's there. 

Let's use it :)

EDIT: I mean, it would have been easy to just say "As a new recruit, you will be authorized to carry the Subach HL-7 and Akheton SDG only.  Command will decide when you're ready for more efficient weaponry."

 
Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
Not saying Khonsu is the sole mastermind, but under this conspiracy, he would be its leader.  Maybe Khonsu has hidden political affiliations with Vasudan supremacists prior to being made Emperor...

Pls don't make it a conspiracy. As I said before you don't need em - you could blame the Euro crysis on a bunch of world goverment networked politicians but most of the consequences- economic boom in one country, stagnation in another one - are often the result of a mixture of simple basic economic rules. Of course politicians can certainly influence that much, but whether they consider that an opportinity depends on many things (and if you benefit, you probably won't change anything).

If you're going for intra-Vasudan political influence, you could say he might have been backed by industry groups that the Zods are particular good in (like reactors that they sell to the Terrans)

 
Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
Of course we can't explain why Shivan weapons are so weak given they're canonically "too much".  That's just a way to keep the player from ragequitting on Easy difficulty :)

Actually, BPs explination that Shivan weapons are highly advanced but "not directed" made most sense to me. With all-rounder weapons it is more difficult to damage.

Again, canon incontinence. :p In both the FS1 and FS2 intro Shivan weapons are much deadlier than ingame,. :D

 

Offline darkdaej

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Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
Not saying Khonsu is the sole mastermind, but under this conspiracy, he would be its leader.  Maybe Khonsu has hidden political affiliations with Vasudan supremacists prior to being made Emperor...

Pls don't make it a conspiracy.

well, hmm, it's pretty much the entire point of my story proposal - a Vasudan conspiracy at the highest levels of their government to gradually erode Terran power and make them into a vassal species which is carefully put forward over decades following the end of the first Shivan conflict.  So I kinda have to make it a conspiracy :)

 
Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
So I kinda have to make it a conspiracy :)

No you don't. :p (Depending on how much you want to put into this). For the same reason you could ask: why is the economy in southern Europe running that bad, with many unemployed people while it is still working comparable good in nothern Europe? You can say that there's some backdoor conspiracy behind a bunch of criminal elites, but the truth is much more complex.

 
Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
BTW what would the Vasudan position to opening the Sol node be? That seems kinda inevitable, but it would doom all there fine planings.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
I don't think that it is the case here - unless one believes that Khonsu was the sole mastermind behind that. As far as it is depicted here the Vasudans gained more and more influence over the Terrans at the timeframe of several decades, and with increasing power new opportunities arrive that they can exploit and so forth.

Well, the point of the OP thesis is that this was all planned by Khonsu from the get go. I think Orpheus is exactly right about the problems here, but a slight tone correction to the story is enough. Just like you imply, make Khonsu perform certain decisions that he knows will improve the odds of undermining Terran's performance in their economy all the while pretending he is doing it altruistically or in the spirit of allyship. He doesn't know the outcome of his decisions, he's more like a chess player who places his pieces not because he's already calculating a check mate, but rather because he knows that having those pieces there he is creating possibilities and openings that may eventually lead to a mating net, if your opponent distracts himself just a bit (positional play).

There's another move that Khonsu could have made subtletly here and there for that effect: feed upon terran's paranoia about Vasudans, in order to amp up NTF's numbers. Let them fight each other, even if at the cost of some vasudan lives. While it is true that vasudans engaged the NTF head on, let's not forget that the brunt of resources, lives and ships lost was human (both from the GTA and NTF). By my count, several cruisers, at least two Orion destroyers and a couple of deimos-class corvettes, and IDK how many fighters and bombers.

This would be a 100% safe move. There just was no way that a NTF insurrection could ever be successful, for there was always the Collossus trump card to clean house at the end.

BTW what would the Vasudan position to opening the Sol node be? That seems kinda inevitable, but it would doom all there fine planings.

At first glance, maybe so. But consider Inferno or BP: It's quite clear that it could well end up in another civil war scenario. It would, at least, throw the human colonies into a chaotic mess, with refugees trying to flee to Sol, a lot of economic turmoil and political shenanigans. Many in Sol, OTOH, having learned about Capella, would probably freak the **** out about being opened up again to interstellar nodes. A lot of uncertainty there, but chaos would be guaranteed. The only thing Khonsu would have to make sure would be that Sol wouldn't be a direct threat to Vasudans, and then continue to play the long game.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 05:04:35 pm by Luis Dias »

 
Re: Vasudan takeover - a theory
Thats an interesting thought. Defeating the NTF would certainly demolish any significant (large scale or organised) anti-GTVA opposition in Terran space.

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At first glance, maybe so. But consider Inferno or BP: It's quite clear that it could well end up in another civil war scenario.

Probably one that GTVA could lose though. Sol would only have to take Delta Serpentis and it would be split in half.