[Kestrellius]

How much sense would it make for the GTVA to produce and deploy Iceni-class vessels in the years after Capella?

Obviously, it's been done before in mods -- Derelict, most notably. And there are good reasons, both in- and out-of-universe, to do it. For one, it's a cool and under-utilized ship, and it fits very neatly into the FS2-Terran aesthetic in such a way that it feels almost strange to leave it out. From the GTVA perspective, it's a very powerful anti-capital tool that's more compact than a destroyer, and does a nice job of filling that particular niche.

But on the other hand... Well, the only one that ever existed was the very recognizable flagship of Aken Bosch. From the perspective of the GTVA, Bosch was a treasonous revolutionary followed by a band of violent fanatics, who promoted a dangerous and bigoted ideology, and whose reckless and arguably malevolent dealings with the Shivans nearly brought about the end of galactic civilization. And the Iceni was his symbol.

If you're the GTVA, do you really want to spread that symbol around? Take it into your fleets?

On the other hand, can you afford not to?

One other thing to consider is the design's previously-noted visual similarities to the Deimos and Hecate. It seems plausible that the Iceni was in fact a GTVA design, and Bosch just hijacked the prototype. (Command did seem to figure out what it was really quickly when the Boadicea disintegrated.) It makes sense -- while the NTF control a lot of territory and military hardware, they're not well-supplied with modern equipment, and it seems a little dubious that Bosch's people could design and build not only a new class of warship, but a completely new variety (frigate/pocket destroyer). We are told that the Iceni seems to be built around ETAK, but we can handwave this aside easily enough: maybe these are largely internal modifications.

If this is the case, then the GTVA deploying the class makes more sense: adopting a symbolic enemy design might be politically dangerous, but simply failing to abandon your own design after the enemy co-opts it is safer territory (and whether it's safer or not, is more likely to be recommended by status-quo bias).

As for me, I think the Iceni is cool and I want to use it in GTVA fleets, but the plausibility of it bothers me. What are your thoughts, HLP?

[manwiththemachinegun]

For the most part with military weapons, there's a cost/quality debate that never ends. Do you go for high numbers of cheap units? Or low numbers of more time and money intensive ones, that achieve greater effect?
Deimos and Sobek corvette are extremely flexible weapon platforms. Its just that we as players have spent so long fighting, we can more clearly see their weaknesses and thus there's the drive to "fix" weak points in their fleets. However, I always got the sense from the FS2 Campaign the GTVA had no real issues with their shipyards and were quite satisfied with their arsenals. They simply never anticipated the return of the Shivans, and their issues with defeating Bosch was of a tactical nature, not due to the inferiority of their weapons.

[Mito [PL]]

Is the ship itself guilty of the same crimes as its owner comitted? Especially the ship *class*, instead of the original Iceni itself?
Judging the ship class by its single notable "specimen" is basically the same as if you'd judged every Honda car in the world through the actions of the minority of people who rice these cars.

Also I'd say that while political views and stuff like that have an effect on these decisions, in my opinion the military should be making objective decisions in this regard; if Iceni is somehow better than some current-gen ship, filling an important niche, complementing other assets well, and especially if it's cost-effective to implement, they should use it.

[The E]

It makes sense to me that the GTVA would take a look at the Iceni design to see if it can be improved or reused. It is, after all, a very good blockade runner; the kind of unit you throw at a jump node to secure it for the rest of the fleet to follow up. Yes, Deimoses and Sobeks are perhaps more versatile (definitely more capable of defending themselves against fighter strikes), but an Iceni can essentially do the same job that an Orion can on a much smaller and faster spaceframe, so there's definitely room for them in a future GTVA fleet.

[Nightmare]

I think the Iceni is almost certainly a GTVA design, the NTF would've had only 18 months from planning to construction and deployment, highly unlikely. Also it is massively Zod-Terran hybrid looking like the Hecate or the Colossus so I doubt the NTF would design their ships that way. (Koth descrtibed the Colossus as monstrosity, ambigous if he just meant the size or design)

[The E]

IIRC, the Iceni was a GTVA project under Bosch before he rebelled.

[Nightmare]

From the tech description:
"The Iceni is the NTF command frigate, built under Admiral Bosch's direction at the Freedom shipyards in Polaris, captured by the Neo-Terran Front at the start of their rebellion."
Also: "Intelligence believes the ship was custom-designed for a secret NTF project." but that might have been only internal modifications as noted above.

[Nyctaeus]

The look of Iceni is a result of the technology Bosch used to construct it, and as actual [then former] GTVA admiral, he had access to the lastest solutions available. It is clearly a warship within the same generation as Hecate or Deimos. I have no trouble accepting it. I have problem with figuring out why Iceni should differ from Capella-era warships of GTVA.

Costs of mass-production of such ship would be tremendous. With half of the size, Iceni packs almost as much firepower as Orion so it's clear that it require powerful reactor and resources to power the ship. Aside from this, does GTVA really need blockade runner? Instead if GTVA acquired they plans, they could redesign it into heavy striking element with spinal-mounted, paired BGreens.

[Nightmare]

Costs of mass-production of such ship would be tremendous. With half of the size, Iceni packs almost as much firepower as Orion so it's clear that it require powerful reactor and resources to power the ship. Aside from this, does GTVA really need blockade runner? Instead if GTVA acquired they plans, they could redesign it into heavy striking element with spinal-mounted, paired BGreens.

GTVA does not necessary need blockade runners but artillery frigates. Beams (in particular BGreens) are ultimatly more powerful than bombs - not that bombers are bad, but against superheavy caps they're probably not enough; and GTVA has only antifighter corvettes and carriers so that element is missing in the Terran fleet.

[The E]

Costs of mass-production of such ship would be tremendous. With half of the size, Iceni packs almost as much firepower as Orion so it's clear that it require powerful reactor and resources to power the ship. Aside from this, does GTVA really need blockade runner? Instead if GTVA acquired they plans, they could redesign it into heavy striking element with spinal-mounted, paired BGreens.

One possible backstory would be that the Icenis were originally designed and sold as a replacement for the Orion class, as a heavy frontline brawler that can either run or enforce node blockades with a Hecate hanging back and providing fighter cover.

And the GTVA absolutely needs blockade runners, because that's what FS strategic combat requires. Enemy forces can only enter through jump nodes, and on the flipside, enemy systems can only be attacked through jump nodes, so assuming that these chokepoints would be fortified or heavily patrolled is sensible, as is the idea of designing a ship specially built for securing them.

GTVA does not necessary need blockade runners but artillery frigates. Beams (in particular BGreens) are ultimatly more powerful than bombs - not that bombers are bad, but against superheavy caps they're probably not enough; and GTVA has only antifighter corvettes and carriers so that element is missing in the Terran fleet.

Erm.

You do know that the Iceni carries 3 of the biggest beams the FS2-era GTVA has available, yes? That it is pretty much a miniaturized Orion, sub-par AA and heavy anticap firepower included?

[Nightmare]

GTVA does not necessary need blockade runners but artillery frigates. Beams (in particular BGreens) are ultimatly more powerful than bombs - not that bombers are bad, but against superheavy caps they're probably not enough; and GTVA has only antifighter corvettes and carriers so that element is missing in the Terran fleet.

Erm.

You do know that the Iceni carries 3 of the biggest beams the FS2-era GTVA has available, yes? That it is pretty much a miniaturized Orion, sub-par AA and heavy anticap firepower included?

Sure? I just thought that beams count as "artillery" in FS.

[Colt]

Aside from this, does GTVA really need blockade runner? Instead if GTVA acquired they plans, they could redesign it into heavy striking element with spinal-mounted, paired BGreens.

Perhaps Iceni 2.0 could have all of it's beams on one side of the ship. It could be used as a node blockader (or as a striking element jump in with the beam-side facing the enemy).

If the Iceni design were looked at by GTVA engineers post-Capella, it would go through some overhaul (no need for those onboard special labratories for example).

EDIT: Personally I don't think it would be used given the association it has inherited. GTVA would probably just build a new corvette type while keeping the Deimos/Hecate look.

[The E]

Sure? I just thought that beams count as "artillery" in FS.

Then I am confused why the GTVA doesn't need a blockade runner (which the Iceni is), but does need a frigate with heavy beam armament (which the Iceni also is).

[Nightmare]

If you do this it would probably better to built some sort of Iceni x Mjolnir; an actual node defense platform that would be much bigger than normal sentry guns (which are completely unsuitable for nodeblockades).

[Nightmare]

Sure? I just thought that beams count as "artillery" in FS.

Then I am confused why the GTVA doesn't need a blockade runner (which the Iceni is), but does need a frigate with heavy beam armament (which the Iceni also is).

I actually had some ideas regarding the Iceni before that (just copypaste my techdescription):

The first Iceni was the command frigate of the NTF, built under the personal direction of their leader Admiral Aken Bosch. With over two dozen turrets and a sheath of ultra-dense depleted uranium shielding around its subsystems, the Persephone-class is an extremely tough nut to crack, and despite its much smaller size it has taken over the anti-capital role of the outdated Orion destroyer.

Apart from the Demon-class destroyer, it has been witnessed that all major Shivan vessels pack most of their fire power on their front part. The Persephone exploits this weakness by engaging them in old Earth sea navy style broadside combat. Therefore it relies more on speed and maneuverability and only has an average armor. Unlike the original Iceni, this ship now has 4 instead of 3 heavy beam emitters - 2 on each side. While in broadside engagement, the entire available energy is directed to only one side to enable the rapid fire mode. Using both sides simultaneously tremendously slows down the fire rate and requires to overcharge the reactors what can be done only for a few minutes at a time.

Since the end of the NTF rebellion and the reconquest of the Freedom shipyards in Polaris it has become the mainstay of the Terran fleet along with the Hecate and the Deimos, and its - quite expensive - production has become the symbol of the reunification and reconstruction of both, the GTVA and the former NTF systems, giving especially Polaris prosperity and pride once again. The Vasudans ultimatly tolerated that the design was continued, but demanded a name change.

[The E]

If you do this it would probably better to built some sort of Iceni x Mjolnir; an actual node defense platform that would be much bigger than normal sentry guns (which are completely unsuitable for nodeblockades).

No, that's a Colossus-class. Which is a great platform to just move into a system and hold it for a long time or to clear a particularly tough node blockade. But since those definitely can't be built in massive numbers, a smaller, cheaper platform (that, let's face it, is more expendable) that still carries a lot of firepower, endurance and maneuverability to get through blockades but is also nimble enough to keep up with other ships in normal space is also necessary, and as great as the Deimoses are, they can't really deal with enemy destroyers (whereas the Iceni can)

I actually had some ideas regarding the Iceni before that (just copypaste my techdescription):

Those are good ideas! But also consider the average node assault (See King's Gambit for reference): If you want to secure a node, you would position your ships and platforms along the emergence vector. If your ship's firepower is concentrated forward, it can't really deal with such a scenario, since it has to maneuver to bring its beams to bear on target. Side-mounted beams alleviate that.

[Nightmare]

No, that's a Colossus-class. Which is a great platform to just move into a system and hold it for a long time or to clear a particularly tough node blockade. But since those definitely can't be built in massive numbers, a smaller, cheaper platform (that, let's face it, is more expendable) that still carries a lot of firepower, endurance and maneuverability to get through blockades but is also nimble enough to keep up with other ships in normal space is also necessary, and as great as the Deimoses are, they can't really deal with enemy destroyers (whereas the Iceni can)

It seemed to me that the Colossus never had a specific role. It was supposed to be good at everything, simply after the logic more=better. What I meant was that the Mjolnir is an interesting weapon to blockade nodes against most threats, but all in all they're sitting ducks (same would count for an Iceni) so you need fighter cover to prevent the enemy from simply removing them.

Those are good ideas! But also consider the average node assault (See King's Gambit for reference): If you want to secure a node, you would position your ships and platforms along the emergence vector. If your ship's firepower is concentrated forward, it can't really deal with such a scenario, since it has to maneuver to bring its beams to bear on target. Side-mounted beams alleviate that.

For node assault I actually have ships with proper forward (but LR/ ~25km) weapons too. The Iceni/Persephone was rather for melees with destroyers and merely to reinforce anti-Sathanas strikes and nodeblockades (especially for establishing blockades the GTVA would have dedicated hardware).

I actually took the idea for this from OTTs techdescription of the GTD Gaia, but OTT had very long ranged weapons (like 30 km) so I split the idea in 2 ships.

[The E]

For node assault I actually have ships with proper forward (but LR/ ~25km) weapons too.

But ... node assaults are melees? Having long-range beams is always good to have, but if you're on the attack, you absolutely need close-range firepower more than you need long-range.

[Nightmare]

If you'd attack a node kept by an opponent it's certainly good to knock out as many hostile ships as you can before engaging closely; however I'd presume GTVA would be rather on the defensive side anyway as the opponent would most likelybe a Shivan invasion fleet. In general, the Iceni seems to be rather a glass cannon- it's decently armored but it can certainly deal more damage than it can take. But the enemy would sooner or later deploy fighters and bomber against which the Iceni can't really defend itstelf and hence requires protection by Deimos/Hecate completements.

[The E]

If you'd attack a node kept by an opponent it's certainly good to knock out as many hostile ships as you can before engaging closely;

Yes, but you can't do that. You are emerging at a fixed point in space, with (as implied by King's Gambit) a predictable vector. A node blockade, therefore, will consist of elements prepositioned to take advantage of that fact, including both close and far elements; the second you emerge, you are already engaged. Having the ability to snipe faraway targets is great, but that's not the most pressing threat you face in that situation.

however I'd presume GTVA would be rather on the defensive side anyway as the opponent would most likelybe a Shivan invasion fleet. In general, the Iceni seems to be rather a glass cannon- it's decently armored but it can certainly deal more damage than it can take. But the enemy would sooner or later deploy fighters and bomber against which the Iceni can't really defend itstelf and hence requires protection by Deimos/Hecate completements.

Yes, but that's why you have a fleet that can support an assault.