Author Topic: Current IP Situation  (Read 3837 times)

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Offline CT27

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Re: Current IP Situation
I tend to agree with jr2 in this case.


If Volition made FS3 I'd definitely play it and it wouldn't lessen my enjoyment of the mods out right now (I would also continue FS writing I'm working on for campaigns).

Also, if FS3 was announced by Volition tomorrow, I think a good chunk of the campaigns still under development right now would continue and it wouldn't stop people.

 

Offline Su-tehp

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Re: Current IP Situation
I tend to agree with jr2 in this case.


If Volition made FS3 I'd definitely play it and it wouldn't lessen my enjoyment of the mods out right now (I would also continue FS writing I'm working on for campaigns).

Also, if FS3 was announced by Volition tomorrow, I think a good chunk of the campaigns still under development right now would continue and it wouldn't stop people.

Agreed, getting FS3 wouldn't negate other campaigns because each campaign is already someone's "headcanon" and we have dozens of those already. It's basically like having dozens of "Star Wars Legends" continuities, so how does having an "official" FS3 negate all of the other stories? It's just one more universe in an already heavily populated Freespace multiverse. :D

Not to mention that the Freespace modding community has come up with plenty of campaigns/stories using non-Freespace stories like Battlestar Galactica, Babylon 5, Solaris and many others. None of those would get negated by having FS3 either.
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Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Current IP Situation
I never really understood **why** everyone always hated on an official FS3 as if it removes fan-made parallel universes.  I mean, don't we have alternate histories of FS1 etc now as mods?  I don't get it.  It would only be a problem if asshats started "yeah well your story isn't canon now so you suck" flamewars, and I don't think they would be on this forum for very long if they did that. 

Right?  Summary: I don't get why parallel universes can't get along.  They can even draw inspiration from each other.  Just cause one is the official :v: storyline doesn't invalidate the rest of them.  Cause they're ALL stories!!  :lol:

The one problem emerges from the canon, and resulting authorative, status of any retroactive change - or if a new game based on the Freespace IP is not a sequel but a prelude  or intermediate chapter building to a proper sequel (i.e. a scenario set in the 2340s which establishes items to be expanded upon in further stories set 2370s and onwards) - think something like Halo: Reach.
*makes a literal handwave* ... butterfly effect from that.

EDIT: Cannot find the relevant post right now, but a few years ago I already said briefly made a chase why I am thinking that any possible FS3 would have to reach back on the timeline for narrative reasons. Having spend considerable time analysing the subtext and coding in FS1 and FS2, I think the case for that only get stronger the more dedicated you look at it - that's also why I think doing a new IP would be better, as at some point it would be simpler to build something new than having to correct and patch the old.


Secondly, with mods you have a much stronger tie with creator(s) - its a much more personal, less authorative touch. Plus, you can always look onto differences in focus between modders to divergence more paletable.
However, in my experience, not everyone who makes a headcanon about and IP that goes through the hands of multiple creators does appricate all the differences between creators - esspecially if they are subtextual; which leads to attempts by some to create a homogenous text of fanon when only compatible parts are on a textual level.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 02:58:00 am by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Current IP Situation
I will always be disappointed at the level of which "canon" plays such a big role in people's heads in the ways they enjoy their stories. I've always imagined *all* of these stories as kind of versions of the same stories, campfire tales of things to come or that never happened, being free for everyone to retell and reinterpret. All the industries' brouhaha about creating "universes" and forcing certain "movies" to be within the same "universe" as "other movies" and so on seem to me so utterly annoying and baffling. It's so reductive. (Except when made in jest, like predator vs aliens, which is so over the top that it just becomes funny) I once hoped that the constant resetting of big movies like spiderman or batman would clean the heads of people of this notion, but nah, it's right here and it won't go away. Just ask the nerds in any star trek or star wars forum about "canon" and they'll go ballistic.

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Current IP Situation
I will always be disappointed at the level of which "canon" plays such a big role in people's heads in the ways they enjoy their stories. I've always imagined *all* of these stories as kind of versions of the same stories, campfire tales of things to come or that never happened, being free for everyone to retell and reinterpret. All the industries' brouhaha about creating "universes" and forcing certain "movies" to be within the same "universe" as "other movies" and so on seem to me so utterly annoying and baffling. It's so reductive. (Except when made in jest, like predator vs aliens, which is so over the top that it just becomes funny) I once hoped that the constant resetting of big movies like spiderman or batman would clean the heads of people of this notion, but nah, it's right here and it won't go away. Just ask the nerds in any star trek or star wars forum about "canon" and they'll go ballistic.

It comes down to a question how you were taught media literacy - not everyone gets a full comprehensive academic curiculum, and even not every idea is acknowledged or accepted on equal terms. Likewise, the notion that a work can be claimed from the author by the audience, i.e. its doesn't matter what X put in their thing it matters what you get out of thing for yourself, is not the forefront of everyones mind - esspecially if the montion of the "creative genius" exits in your mind as a wholly positive image of aspirational exceptionalism and/or individualism.

EDIT: ... and of course there is dynamics coming of commerical entites which sell fiction, treating the audience of said fiction as consumers, the internalisation of dissolution of the difference between audience and consumer/media consumption and commerical consumption .... *obligatory, bored Adorno-referrence*
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 04:22:58 am by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 
Re: Current IP Situation
Just ask the nerds in any star trek or star wars forum about "canon" and they'll go ballistic.
Pretty much this. People hold varying value to the canonical nature of things in media, so any additions or change to the official canon will always upset some people, whether it's a reboot, sequel, prequel or interquel that pushes aside parts of a franchise's expanded universe canon or even fanon.

Personally, I agree with the sentiment that an official FS3 would *likely* be disappointing on some level - canonical concerns aside, be it story, gameplay or mission design, as we've had some inspiring fanworks (and original works!) being produced in this community.

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: Current IP Situation
I see all fanmade sequels as somekind of alternate timeline-like stories. Mostly because official, canon FS3 storyline exist and always existed. In this regard, all fanmade continuations are effectively equal.

I don't fully believe Scott Jason saying "Beyond that, we didn’t really have anything concrete.". He revealed us as much, as the NDA allowed him to say. That's how corporation policy works. They still own the IP, so Interplay as every corporation jealously protects their properity. Even if they don't want to do anything with FS IP, it still works as "possible source of income". I remember fanmade EVE Online RTS project killed by official devs for the same reason.

Majority of devs have way more ideas, and sometimes even complete plans for all possible continuations including spin-offs, expansion packs and finally sequels. Nobody produce unfinished stories just because if one instantion generate satisfying income, production of the sequel is usually immediately launched. It happened for FS1. I believe that at least rough draft of the FS3 story exist.

If anybody acquire the IP, he would gain access to all docs :v: members produced during pre-production stage. Maybe even complete with concept art for possible ships and locations from cancelled FS3. Former :v: staff members are aware that we exist, and we would kill for access to official files. Looks like the interview suggest, that FS3 entered it's pre-production stage. It's exactly when concept arts and story drafts are being born. Staff members probably heavily briefed those ideas, when high call from Interplay appeared and killed whole project.

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Re: Current IP Situation
Well Ace posted a whole bunch of ideas the devs apparently played around, but nothing what would be exatly a storyline.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Current IP Situation
I don't fully believe Scott Jason saying "Beyond that, we didn’t really have anything concrete.". He revealed us as much, as the NDA allowed him to say. That's how corporation policy works. They still own the IP, so Interplay as every corporation jealously protects their properity. Even if they don't want to do anything with FS IP, it still works as "possible source of income". I remember fanmade EVE Online RTS project killed by official devs for the same reason.

I believe him. They were making FS2 at a rapid clip, any planning for FS3 was going to be pretty basic, especially in the absence of a confirmed deal to actually make that game happen (plus, remember that Volition was at that either already making Red Faction and Summoner or in preproduction for those games). That they didn't spend a whole lot of time on fleshing out a sequel to their last game made for Interplay is entirely believable.

CCP shutting down a fan game using their IP in a space they might want to explore is a whole different situation.
 
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Majority of devs have way more ideas, and sometimes even complete plans for all possible continuations including spin-offs, expansion packs and finally sequels. Nobody produce unfinished stories just because if one instantion generate satisfying income, production of the sequel is usually immediately launched. It happened for FS1. I believe that at least rough draft of the FS3 story exist.

While that may be true, it may also be true that Jason Scott, as one of two writers credited for Summoner, was channeling his ideas into that new project rather than FS3.

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If anybody acquire the IP, he would gain access to all docs :v: members produced during pre-production stage.

Assuming that those documents exist and assuming that they were shared with Interplay. Which may not be the case; It is entirely possible that in between Volition signing up with THQ and the final auction where Interplay purchased residual rights, these documents may have been lost (They would have been with Volition the entire time, not with Interplay).

Quote
Maybe even complete with concept art for possible ships and locations from cancelled FS3. Former :v: staff members are aware that we exist, and we would kill for access to official files. Looks like the interview suggest, that FS3 entered it's pre-production stage. It's exactly when concept arts and story drafts are being born. Staff members probably heavily briefed those ideas, when high call from Interplay appeared and killed whole project.

FS3 was never cancelled, as it was never greenlit to begin with. There was no formal preproduction stage for FS3, just individual devs talking about what they might want to do if they did get to make that project.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Current IP Situation
I never really understood **why** everyone always hated on an official FS3 as if it removes fan-made parallel universes.  I mean, don't we have alternate histories of FS1 etc now as mods?  I don't get it.  It would only be a problem if asshats started "yeah well your story isn't canon now so you suck" flamewars, and I don't think they would be on this forum for very long if they did that. 

Right?  Summary: I don't get why parallel universes can't get along.  They can even draw inspiration from each other.  Just cause one is the official :v: storyline doesn't invalidate the rest of them.  Cause they're ALL stories!!  :lol:

It doesn't invalidate them, but the ending of FS2 demands a conclusion or a continuation in a way that a definitive ending would not.  It's that vacuum, that craving for a sequel, for more information, that gives so many people cause to write sequels and to play them.

If Freespace 3 came out and was generally accepted by the community would there be the same motivation to make or play a campaign on the premise of "What if FS3 didn't happen?"?  I'm sure you'd get the odd one but I don't think there'd be anywhere near as much interest.


Then care must be taken to raise as many or more questions with the sequel than with FS2.  Doable, I would think.  Pretty sure :v: could pull that off.

 
Re: Current IP Situation
Writing stories in a way they turn into fanfiction-gold is probably the best way to have things alive at a point where other franchises would be long dead.

 
Re: Current IP Situation
As others have said, it would be cool, even if highly improbable, to get the Freespace IP, but the idea of FS3 would be at the bottom of the list of reasons. The platonic concept of 'FS3' is no longer achievable, and hasn't been for over a decade. The practical concept of a campaign set in the Freespace universe after Capella... is one that has already been explored in several ways. I am always happy to see more exploration of it, but it wouldn't be in my eyes any different in terms of 'authoritativeness' than its peers like BP or Inferno.

I don't particularly care about who owns the IP, I just like playing good campaigns. For a while :v: held the monopoly on that in most respects, but over time as the community has come into its own, it lost that advantage. I would absolutely say that the various mod campaigns have met or exceeded volition's standards. An '''''authoritative''''' FS3 (the ideal of which is inseparably tied to a high quality FS3) isn't nearly as highly desired as it used to be (in the sense that most players now will have more high quality freespace content than they know what to do with) and it's doubtful even that could even be produced at this stage.

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Current IP Situation
but the ending of FS2 demands a conclusion or a continuation in a way that a definitive ending would not.  It's that vacuum, that craving for a sequel, for more information,

... what if that is the point? Maybe not the point  :v-old: set out to make but the one it has become? -- There is a power in absence, one that can foster aspirations and curiosity, as you pointed out.

The open ending as a communicative device, from author/director to the audience, may be out of favour in games for reasons intrinsic to the medium (e.g. expected empowerment of the player vs the expected passivity of theatre/TV/movie audience) and reasons related to the cultural background of many creators of games (e.g. using the open ending as call to action was long been a staple of communist theories on the political use of art), but it is not an inherently bad proposition.


But I let me pose a question here: What is more important to the response - the motive or the execution? The why you desire to fill the void, or what you want the void to the be filled by?
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 
Re: Current IP Situation
"If it ain't by  :v: ,  it ain't FS3" is still true. However, I honestly doubt anything  :v: makes could live up to some of the fan-made campaigns we have now. Gameplay-wise the level of FREDDing skill for the community has far surpassed anything you'd find in FS2, even if you're only considering retail SEXPs and not all the cool SCP ones.

This community has been learning over the last 20 years how to make space game campaigns, and specifically what works with Freespace. It's also been making those campaigns for other people that are really into space games and FS. Not to say that absolutely zero care was given to casuals but the primary audience are hardcore fans. Anything made by a real game developer would have to be aimed at a wider audience. There's a saying that you should never meet your heroes and I think something like that applies to FS3. It couldn't ever live up to community expectations.
The few modern space combat games are a decent example. Big open world space trucking sims aren't really comparable but you have things like Strike Suit Zero and House of the Dying Sun. Both are pretty good games but in terms of mission design FS mods have them handily beat. HotDS has a pretty cool drifty flight model(but FSO can do that too) and some pretty good missions with multiple things going on at once but nothing as "tight" as Battle of the Bulge from Nostos or as open as Acts of Volition from BtA. SSZ has some basic objectives to do but most of the gameplay boils down to "target closest hostile, kill it" much like retail FS2 often does.

For the engine you'd probably have to switch to UE4/UE5 or something of that type, a more modern engine that would in the end be far less moddable than what we have with FSO.
The biggest problem with a potential FS3 is that it would have to be compared to FSO and it would most likely be found wanting.
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Re: Current IP Situation
Hey Folks!

My idea is if we could get the  :v-old: crew back together in some form, pay them to just write the new FS3 storyline, I would be willing to fork up some funds to help that along depending on the cost. Say even crowd funding with the clear idea it's just for the storyline. After that, maybe even take it the next step. My reasoning is to just start with the storyline and see what happens.

Maybe  :v-old: might like it enough to continue? Or if not, we here would have a storyline to follow and create something viable from that? I see many possibilities happening from this approach if it does indeed work out correctly.

Thoughts? 
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Offline The E

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Re: Current IP Situation
Thoughts? 

Good luck getting several million dollars for a spacesim after Star Citizen.

Also, don't be naive. Volition is a subsidiary of Deep Silver/Koch Media these days; they are not for hire, and any pitch for a project will have to be weighed against whatever they can do that isn't someone else's IP.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 10:55:36 am by The E »
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 
Re: Current IP Situation
From what I know some :v-old: members played some of the mods made here. However, none of them came up with a just inofficial FS3 plotline.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Current IP Situation
Serious question: what would V do at this point that we couldn't? About the only thing I can think of is Jason Scott's specific voice in the prose.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Current IP Situation
Serious question: what would V do at this point that we couldn't? About the only thing I can think of is Jason Scott's specific voice in the prose.

Have people on staff actually work full-time on this project and have actual management :P
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 
Re: Current IP Situation
They could start a multi-million Dollar Kickstarter campaign about a spacesim where you're fighting an epic galactic war, traveling to the frontline to fight there, quickly hop on the marine unit to do FPS action against Shivans, all while at the same managing your own company, then return home to your apartment to sip some coffee and make sure your stress levels remain acceptable.. oh wait