Author Topic: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.  (Read 37841 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
Let me give you a nice, simple, non-controversial example. :p I believe that homosexuality is wrong, that it's a sin. And yet, I also believe that homosexuals have the right to choose that way of life. It's as simple as that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is a great example of the "man who refuses to acknowledge the rules of chess" allegory. What if it were demonstrated to you, scientifically, that queer people do not get a choice*?

I ask this not because I want to have an argument about this topic but because, if you were suplexed into the rhetorical ground by fourteen other posters providing actual scientific evidence, you might plead that your POV was not being respected. Yet from an empirical point of view, it's not a matter of 'respect' or 'lack of respect'. It's a matter of you being wrong. There is an empirical truth and no amount of belief or disbelief will change it. You would not have equal ground to stand on.

Would you insist that your views need to be protected from the 'disrespect' of people refusing to entertain or tolerate them on the basis of scientific evidence?

*this is an entire complicated issue which is tangential to the actual point i'm making

  

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
We also have a bunch of young earth creationists here. Do we need to respect their right to have their own POV? Or does the ability to hold young earth creationist views imply an inability to engage in any kind of rational discourse based on a consensus reality?

What about flat earthers? If flat earthers want to complain that they're not respected and feel unwelcome, well...that's okay by me. They're not respected and not welcome.

What about people who believe they receive the code of right and wrong from three mystical dwarves? Do they need to feel respected and welcome? Do their contributions need to be acknowledged and engaged with?

We clearly draw the line somewhere.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
The next question would be: why the hell would you discuss these subjects on a forum devoted to keeping alive a 20 years old game? Why would you ignite flames on such a website? See, everything leads back to the core of the issue we're debating. :p
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Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
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Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
In an ideal world there should be a general cordial conversational tone threshold that people would try and stay in.

Spin whatever dits you choose but if it gets argumentative then just lock it.  Or maybe a three strike rule for the thread rather than the individual?  It might not be fair to the masses but the fear of alienation via being a threadlocker might keep people from making rash comments?
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
We clearly draw the line somewhere.

You did, not "we".

Apart from that, the most relevant "line that needs to be drawn" here is what is working in terms of modding and what not.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
The next question would be: why the hell would you discuss these subjects on a forum devoted to keeping alive a 20 years old game? Why would you ignite flames on such a website? See, everything leads back to the core of the issue we're debating. :p

All of the campaigns are political to some degree, but then that extends. Here's a hypothetical:

"In my campaign, the GTVA has executed all homosexuals because they belong in Hell, and there are no women pilots because they are inferior to men, and are on planets making babies, like Jesus Christ intended. Also, my campaign cannot staff any women, because that means they're working on a campaign, and are not in the kitchen making me food. Also, gays need not apply to work on my campaign, as I do not want my being tainted by their sins, XD"

See the issue?

I'd call it hyperbole, but we literally have people believing that here, who have done things according to some of those principles, outside of PolDisc.

 
Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
The next question would be: why the hell would you discuss these subjects on a forum devoted to keeping alive a 20 years old game? Why would you ignite flames on such a website? See, everything leads back to the core of the issue we're debating. :p

Because when e.g. a pandemic breaks out and changes everyone's lives in a way unprecedented almost to the limit of living memory, people generally want to talk about it with those around them. Preferably without a minority of as few as one member loudly arguing with them that it's not actually real and everyone should be going to church as normal. People feel a basic need to talk to each other about the things that are important to them.

It might not be fair to the masses but the fear of alienation via being a threadlocker might keep people from making rash comments?

Honestly, man, it's been empirically proven on HLP alone that this is just not the case. Posters with fringe views that are incompatible with consensus reality have repeatedly proven that they're very happy to turn every vaguely relevant thread into an idiotic argument, and they'll take even-handed attempts at moderation that focus on locking threads as proof that they're not really the problem, it's the majority who are intolerant of their insane or inane views. I don't even know if HLP has any of these people left and I'm not sure we really need Big Reform to handle them at this point, but it's important to acknowledge that as a moderator you eventually must exercise some judgement and decide which side of an argument is right and which is wrong, and tell the wrong side to please stop posting about it.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker- you've probably heard me
    • My old squad sub-domain
Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
But we've got to be impartial to be fair right?
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
Yeah, for all that I'm making Big Philosophical Points here I don't actually think HLP has much of a problem with political discourse. The general tone and discourse is a lot better than it was, say, eight years ago. A lot of that is because the moderation seems to genuinely give a **** about the users instead of sticking to legalistic "we cannot act until paragraph 8 section 2 has been violated" disinterest.

 
Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
Nobody has mentioned hte paradox of tolerance yet and I am very dissapointed.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
For example, I think a standard of good moderation is "posters who bring a lot of information and thought to the table should feel that their effort is worthwhile, and steps should be taken to retain them". This makes for a Good Posting Culture. An example of someone who does not always or even often agree with me but who has consistently been an interesting poster is Luis Dias.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
Nobody has mentioned hte paradox of tolerance yet and I am very dissapointed.

Tolerance of intolerance? Someone should.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
To people saying, "Why would you want to talk about topics like this on a forum about spaceships?" ...is that what things are like for you at work? Does everyone just talk strictly business with their co-workers, and nothing else ever comes up about life in general? Because that sounds like a ****ing miserable environment to me.

 

Offline EatThePath

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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
The next question would be: why the hell would you discuss these subjects on a forum devoted to keeping alive a 20 years old game? Why would you ignite flames on such a website? See, everything leads back to the core of the issue we're debating. :p

Because when e.g. a pandemic breaks out and changes everyone's lives in a way unprecedented almost to the limit of living memory, people generally want to talk about it with those around them. Preferably without a minority of as few as one member loudly arguing with them that it's not actually real and everyone should be going to church as normal. People feel a basic need to talk to each other about the things that are important to them.

To add to that, this is not just something that people want to do, sharing this kind of thing can help build community if handled well. Getting to know each other builds bonds. True, sometimes getting to know someone makes you realize they're someone you can't like, but in most cases there's a lot of ground between 'I don't like this person' and 'I can't coexist with this person on a modding forum'. And there are times when someone's interest in Freespace is at an ebb, and talking about light, harmless matters isn't enough to bring them around, but keeping up with the real matters of other people or sharing their own is.

But so many real things do overlap with politics. If a woman wants to share anger or seek advice about restrictions in women's rights in the world, or practically any other woman-specific issue, that may be an immediate life matter for them but a highly politically charged one. Just because chunks of their life experience have been politicized should they be denied the chance to talk about those things? The same goes for any other host of things, what is politics for you is life for others.

This is a somewhat unrefined thought, but to an extent I think people need to draw a distinction between political discussion and partisan discussion. Nearly any aspect of life can be political, because politics encompass how society makes collective decisions about those aspects of life. But when people start shouting at the other side of the discussion about which party or ideological camp they're on, then it's a lot harder to keep the conversation in a useful mode. I don't necessarily think discussion of governments and the political groups steering them should be banned either, as again that can be a real big deal for people's lives, but maybe an effort could be made to keep the streams more separate? I don't know what to do with this, honestly, I've just been thinking about it a lot lately and wanted to put it out there.
Name your damn turrets and sounds! Numbers alone aren't helpful!
"if disco is dead then I am the laser lich"
"...[Warmachine] keeps changing as fast as EatThePath can force the engine to do [her] dark bidding..."

 
Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
I've had some positively awful shouting matches with Luis Dias over the years (for which I apologize Luis!), I still respect the guy.

 

Offline EatThePath

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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
Well, shouting matches in PD, which to be honest I mostly glanced at in past years when I was still more completely in lurk mode so it could be off base for standard affairs now, gave me the impression of a place where the conversation was dominated by whoever got tired of shouting the slowest. As someone that gets tired of shouting very fast that makes it seem rather unwelcome to me personally. Consequently if I were in moderation it would be one of my goals to make that less the case, but I don't really have a succinct plan of action on how to accomplish that without major collateral damage in other important aspects of the space.
Name your damn turrets and sounds! Numbers alone aren't helpful!
"if disco is dead then I am the laser lich"
"...[Warmachine] keeps changing as fast as EatThePath can force the engine to do [her] dark bidding..."

 
Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
I didn't have those shouting matches in PD though, that predates all of this and mostly happened on Twitter.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
To people saying, "Why would you want to talk about topics like this on a forum about spaceships?" ...is that what things are like for you at work? Does everyone just talk strictly business with their co-workers, and nothing else ever comes up about life in general? Because that sounds like a ****ing miserable environment to me.

It depends on the job.

There are jobs where the interaction with the public is pivotal (and by that I mean face-to-face interaction, not dealing with people using a phone or computer), and the topics which can be discussed by coworkers right in front of other people are in fact regulated by the company they work for. If you've ever been on a commercial flight for example, and I assume you have at least once in your lifetime, you may have noticed the crew discussing random stuff right in front of you and other passengers. That stuff is regulated by the airline and those who don't stick to the rules may be reported by other crewmembers.

Also, if I really have to be clear on the matter, when it comes to work I'd rather not join off-topic discussions started by my colleagues. I have friends for that, and in different environments. Some of my coworkers are fascists, others deny Covid-19 is a thing, and many others address topics which are far too ridiculous from my perspective to be worth debating (women spend hours talking about lipsticks and shoes, literally). And I don't think the environment is miserable at all.


Therefore, back on topic, I strongly believe it's 100% fine to have a "gray list" of topics we'd rather not discuss on HLP due to their potential of degenerating into flame wars.
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker- you've probably heard me
    • My old squad sub-domain
Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
Agreed
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 
Re: Let's just burn poldisc to the ground.
But we've got to be impartial to be fair right?

I'd rather you be compassionate.