[CP5670]

There are probably some.

I have always completely and utterly despised school, both the general atmosphere everywhere (although this might be different at universities) as well as the pace at and methods through which things are taught, so much so that I am not enrolled in a school anymore and am pretty much just learning independently. With the pressures of school out of the way, I can concentrate on actually learning stuff, and to give an idea of how inefficient the entire school system is (not just the teachers; everything, the whole method), consider this: I had not even gone halfway through basic calculus and had mediocre knowledge of that subject when I quit high school in late January, and I am now heavily into the field of asymptotic analysis/special functions, having completed several prerequisite math "sub-disciplines" in between, and if I was doing this through the school/university system only it would have taken four or five years. (and there is no real way to accelerate the pace, since most require you to go through the entire course anyway and not just take a test) Now this is simply pathetic, and it just goes to show that the whole system needs a total revamping.

I will of course still have to go through the university system to get the degrees, but not to actually learn.

[Top Gun]

School trains kids to be obedient, not to learn


Good kids wait fto be told what to do. Whether it be work, reading or anything. They don't just go off and do it. How can anyone take seriously the commitment to the aquisition of knowledge, of an institution where you learn at a dictated pace, have strangers tell you what you should and shouldn't know and have to ask permission to do something as simple as go to the toilet?




Take a look at www.johntaylorgatto.com . This guy has won the New York State Teacher of the year award and quit because he said that school harms the children it teaches. Since then he's spent over five years collecting material about the origins of compulsive schooling. He can appear a bit religious at times (decrying drugs, casual sex etc.) which lessens his credibility but it's still an interesting read. *look at sig*
 
 
CP: Interesting, I have the same sort of problem myself. Independent learning is not recognised by anyone. How did you start out learning calculus to asymptotic analysis/special functions? Was it totally independent or did you have a mentor of some sort?

[Fineus]

Originally posted by Top Gun
School trains kids to be obedient, not to learn

Perhaps some do, but it's because of this that the more intelligent of us who see this come out better people for it - we can see who wants us to be obedient and why and recognise it again in later life.

Of course during school it'd be a tough battle, getting in trouble at school and so on - but if you really do recognise the truth and aren't simply fighting against school because youre some kind of teen-angst ridden reble type, you can come out a massively better person.

Edit: Back on the topic, yes - a good tutor makes for better learning. One who punishes you for no good reason, holds a grudge, can't teach or simply doesn't have the charachter to cope with a class of students will not get better results or coporation out of his/her students.

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by Thunder

Perhaps some do, but it's because of this that the more intelligent of us who see this come out better people for it - we can see who wants us to be obedient and why and recognise it again in later life.

Of course during school it'd be a tough battle, getting in trouble at school and so on - but if you really do recognise the truth and aren't simply fighting against school because youre some kind of teen-angst ridden reble type, you can come out a massively better person.

Edit: Back on the topic, yes - a good tutor makes for better learning. One who punishes you for no good reason, holds a grudge, can't teach or simply doesn't have the charachter to cope with a class of students will not get better results or coporation out of his/her students.

Not really, the only way to come out of school and not be branded a moron is to conform. You may be more intelligent than Einstien and do fantastically well in every single subject but try walking into school with multiple facial piercings, a mowhawk hairstyle, and dressed in a politically taboo (go to www.tshirthell.com and take your pick) T-shirt and a kilt as opposed to normal school uniform and see how quickly you're put in isolation.


Of course those who go through school and come out unaffected will be more enlightened. The same can be said for those in North Korean Gulags or survivors of Nazi deth camps. The fact of the matter is that it's a complete waste of time more productively spent learning at home/in libraries/on the net.


Consider contries like Sweeden and Switzerland. Both are amongst the healthiest, richest contries in the world. In Sweeden, nobody goes to school until they're 7+, In Switzerland, only 25%of people graduate from high school.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Top Gun




Not really, the only way to come out of school and not be branded a moron is to conform. You may be more intelligent than Einstien and do fantastically well in every single subject but try walking into school with multiple facial piercings, a mowhawk hairstyle, and dressed in a politically taboo (go to www.tshirthell.com and take your pick) T-shirt and a kilt as opposed to normal school uniform and see how quickly you're put in isolation.

I'd say, come to Holland. I have a guy at my uni with a mowhawk hairstyle, some have facial piercings and some girls have strings coming out from their pants! We have no uniforms whatsoever. All our schools are public and standardized (Some are still private but not that many). I'm very proud on our education system if I hear you all talk that lowly about yours. Only if you act irrational (Like fighting, smoking pot on school grounds, etc) then you get punished.


Of course those who go through school and come out unaffected will be more enlightened. The same can be said for those in North Korean Gulags or survivors of Nazi deth camps. The fact of the matter is that it's a complete waste of time more productively spent learning at home/in libraries/on the net.

...

Consider contries like Sweeden and Switzerland. Both are amongst the healthiest, richest contries in the world. In Sweeden, nobody goes to school until they're 7+, In Switzerland, only 25% of people graduate from high school.

Well last year on the HAVO, Atheneum and Gymnasium (Education levels. We have a different system) 87% graduated.

Note : This was on my old high school (wich was a standard Dutch school)

On the Dutch system :

We have several levels of educaton in High school :

• Special education for less gifted.
• VMBO (Average level)
• HAVO (Higher education)
• Atheneum/Gymnasium (Highest with gymnasium having Greek and Latin extra)

[Shrike]

Originally posted by Top Gun
Not really, the only way to come out of school and not be branded a moron is to conform. You may be more intelligent than Einstien and do fantastically well in every single subject but try walking into school with multiple facial piercings, a mowhawk hairstyle, and dressed in a politically taboo (go to www.tshirthell.com and take your pick) T-shirt and a kilt as opposed to normal school uniform and see how quickly you're put in isolation.

Or, like I did, end up with like-minded people.

[Fineus]

Ditto

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Top Gun




Not really, the only way to come out of school and not be branded a moron is to conform. You may be more intelligent than Einstien and do fantastically well in every single subject but try walking into school with multiple facial piercings, a mowhawk hairstyle, and dressed in a politically taboo (go to www.tshirthell.com and take your pick) T-shirt and a kilt as opposed to normal school uniform and see how quickly you're put in isolation.

You'd be sent home for multiple reasons and probably scare people. Still anyone that teaches you, is a teacher and you'll find in schools, people generally stick with like-minded people and of course, some schools like mine are RC and thus already has a basic sort of like-'mindedness' and is also a very good quality school(usually 78% get at least 5 GCSE's A-C).

[diamondgeezer]

A good teacher is absolutely essential if you struggle with or flat don't care about the subject, like me with maths. If you like or find a particular subject easy, a 'merely' competent teacher suffices.

[an0n]

Originally posted by Thunder
Ditto

*Doubts that many here were in the "Let's go **** around cause school's a joke" crowd.*

Was:

• Expelled for last half of final year
• Given well over 100 detentions
• Forcibly brought back to school in order to finish coursework 3 months after deadline
• Isolated for a total of 12 months over the space of 5 years
• Without any recognisable work or homework for the final 2 years
• Constantly swearing at teachers
• Constantly kicking the crap out of supposedly bigger/stronger people
• Stealing teachers mobile phones, stripping the phone-book out and selling the numbers to even more disruptive and psychotic people

I rest my case.

And incidentally, History and Chem were the only lessons where I wasn't a complete bastard.

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by Zeronet


You'd be sent home for multiple reasons and probably scare people.

Ah so now we're having to suffer for the irrationality of other people. There's no legitimate reason to suspect that anyone with a mohawk, multiple facial piercings and wearing a miniskirt along with a T Shirt hell shirt is any more likely to be aggressive than anyone else. The people would be "scared" because that person is different. The fact that schools pursue people that don't conform to a conservative dress standard contradicts everything that they supposidly "teach" about not judging people by their appearence.

[aldo_14]

I actually semi-knew a girl - well knew her brother mainly - she was about 2(?) years youger than me - who was a goth.  not a Goth by yer wearing leather jackets and studded collars level, but just a bit too much black eye-liner.

anyways, she got a bollocking fro that by the school, and was being bullied.  About a year ago, she committed suicide as a result.  She was a nice enough person, seemed friendlky enough, so it makes it even worse.  But it kind of illustrates the dangers of ostracising people because they act differently (lesson #1).  It did actually cause a fairly major scandal in Scotland - some people may remember it.

The somewhat disgusting followup is that the newspapers milked the death out of it.  Including, about 3 months after her death, publishing her exam results, which can't of helped the parents atall.  And also publishing an interview with her borther - who I knew (albeit not that well - i lost touch when he went to Uni) - who talked of being bullied and badly hurt for going to music practice.... something which I never heard of from him, had never heard of happening atall and which may never have happened atall, but been made up by the papers.

So, lesson #2 never trust the newspapers - especially the tabloids.

edit; http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_338664.html

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Top Gun



Ah so now we're having to suffer for the irrationality of other people. There's no legitimate reason to suspect that anyone with a mohawk, multiple facial piercings and wearing a miniskirt along with a T Shirt hell shirt is any more likely to be aggressive than anyone else. The people would be "scared" because that person is different. The fact that schools pursue people that don't conform to a conservative dress standard contradicts everything that they supposidly "teach" about not judging people by their appearence.

No it doesnt, everyone that goes school Must wear the uniform, or practical clothing on trips.

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by Zeronet


No it doesnt, everyone that goes school Must wear the uniform, or practical clothing on trips.

Which is a stupid idea in itself. People go to school with the intention of learning the subjects they pick, not to be drilled into compliance. Uniform robs schoolchilderen of individuality and should be scrapped instantly.


The only possible logical need for a school uniform is to protect the less financially fortunate kids from being bulllied for having cheaper cloths, which doesn't work because they just finish up with scruffier school uniforms and get bullied anyway.

[CP5670]

The schools tend to deliberately hold back people who want to move forward quickly, and this is probably what disgusts me the most about them. Close second is the fact that the entire system of grades is completely messed up because the teacher gets to completely determine everything; basically if you have a friendly teacher, you get good grades, and otherwise you do not. (they should just give a national standardized test or something) Next thing is related: the teachers do not really teach much and instead often give completely ridiculous assignments that have no purpose other than to waste time (the english teachers are especially notorious for this), and this time could be better spent doing much more useful things. Also, the credit system required to graduate from high school includes a lot of nonsense. For example, two years foreign language are necessary, and I am told that all of the big universities look for at least three and usually four credits in this. This is just stupid: suppose a guy is going into particle physics, of what use would it be to be able to read ancient latin poetry? Then of course we have the required US history and US government classes, which are quite boring IMO compared to the other history or government classes (world, european, etc.), but no, these two are required.

Sorry, I rambled on quite a bit there, but I really hate these school procedures.

CP: Interesting, I have the same sort of problem myself. Independent learning is not recognised by anyone. How did you start out learning calculus to asymptotic analysis/special functions? Was it totally independent or did you have a mentor of some sort?

I found out about an organization called "The Learning Community," which has several state-based divisions throughout the US; it is technically a registered private school, which would take care of any legal issues, but the enrolled students are pretty much free to do what they want through the school years. I learned the stuff independently by just reading through the appropriate textbooks, and was able to finish around four math courses in about eight months (multivar calc 1/2, diff. equations, real analysis, parts of complex analysis) which I would have taken four years to do when going through school/university systems alone; this I think is just too slow, and the system need to be changed around quite a bit to rectify this. (I am going through something called EPGY, a "distance learning" program run by Stanford U, to get some credits for this) My only regret in this is that I wish I had done this many years ago, as I could have saved a lot of wasted time.

[Stunaep]

Originally posted by an0n



Was:

• Expelled for last half of final year
• Given well over 100 detentions
• Forcibly brought back to school in order to finish coursework 3 months after deadline
• Isolated for a total of 12 months over the space of 5 years
• Without any recognisable work or homework for the final 2 years
• Constantly swearing at teachers
• Constantly kicking the crap out of supposedly bigger/stronger people
• Stealing teachers mobile phones, stripping the phone-book out and selling the numbers to even more disruptive and psychotic people

I rest my case.

And incidentally, History and Chem were the only lessons where I wasn't a complete bastard. [/B]

bah, I could have guessed that.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Top Gun



Which is a stupid idea in itself. People go to school with the intention of learning the subjects they pick, not to be drilled into compliance. Uniform robs schoolchilderen of individuality and should be scrapped instantly.


The only possible logical need for a school uniform is to protect the less financially fortunate kids from being bulllied for having cheaper cloths, which doesn't work because they just finish up with scruffier school uniforms and get bullied anyway.

We don't need no stinkin' school uniforms! I'm glad I never had to wear such a stupid uniform... Long skirts = YUK!

I love the Dutch educational system when compared to other educational systems!

[Shrike]

Originally posted by Zeronet
No it doesnt, everyone that goes school Must wear the uniform, or practical clothing on trips.

You guys still have to wear uniforms?  How backwards....

I showed up to school with purple hair and immediately found people to hang out with.

That fact that during the next two years we got harrassed by school officials just made things all the funnier.

I was of the opinion that school was often boring but necessary to complete.  So I completed it and continued on to university.

Where I showed up first day with green, purple and black hair.

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Shrike
You guys still have to wear uniforms?  How backwards....

I showed up to school with purple hair and immediately found people to hang out with.

That fact that during the next two years we got harrassed by school officials just made things all the funnier.

I was of the opinion that school was often boring but necessary to complete.  So I completed it and continued on to university.

Where I showed up first day with green, purple and black hair.

Purple hair, would be an extreme in hairstyle and not allowed, the shortest hair i can get away with is a 3 on top and a 2 on the sides. Really the uniform is a good thing, because it prevents people showing off and showing up poorer people who cant afford different clothes everyday and in my experiance it works. Course you can personalise your bag, although i do regret adding the names of various Nu-metal bands to my old one..

[Knight Templar]

[/quote] Was:Was:Expelled for last half of final year

Given well over 100 detentions

Forcibly brought back to school in order to finish coursework 3 months after deadline

Isolated for a total of 12 months over the space of 5 years

Without any recognisable work or homework for the final 2 years

Constantly swearing at teachers

Constantly kicking the crap out of supposedly bigger/stronger people

Stealing teachers mobile phones, stripping the phone-book out and selling the numbers to even more disruptive and psychotic people
[QOUTE]

wow i think i someone to look up to

everthying cp said

i agree with totally, it seems schools make things longer and harder than they ever need to be to let us "soak up knwoledge" which is bullsh1t. Like people have said, needs to be re-done.

And the english teacher thing, couldn't be ore ture, i think i already said that we are making "personality windows" out of crayons and construction paper. imho that seems even a little to uh wow, so many derogotoritive words i could, how bout' "un educational" ?for even a second grader, much less high school..