[NGTM-1R]

FS ships, comparing relative damage values (Helios is equivalent to more then 3000 megatons, easy), have insanely powerful weapons and equally insanely tough armor and shielding.

The ISD take out...no. Just no. It'd get its *** kicked by the first Sharlin that it ran into. Now, against a Nova, that would be a relatively fair fight. You have to account for how Minbari gravimetric shielding works: only physical impact is effective against them. Star Wars ships are almost exculsively armed with energy weapons.

Actually, now that I think about it, a Sharlin and a Demon would probably be a good matchup...not counting fightergroups. I can't remember how many fighters a Sharlin can carry off the top of my head.

[stithe2000]

A sharlin can hold only 15 fighters... The fighter aspect is beaten by the demon, for it can carry bout 20 to 50 times more... However, that would also be an interesting match up!

[deep_eyes]

Originally posted by Nuke
what about borg vs goa'uld,  that would be  halarious to listen to on the comm

lmao!

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
The ISD take out...no. Just no. It'd get its *** kicked by the first Sharlin that it ran into. Now, against a Nova, that would be a relatively fair fight. You have to account for how Minbari gravimetric shielding works: only physical impact is effective against them. Star Wars ships are almost exculsively armed with energy weapons.  

Just because it works on the weak plasma weapons of B5 EA doesn't mean it will stop a weapon that is 100,000 times more powerful than the nuke that destroyed a Sharlin in the Earth-Minbari War (the 200-gigaton turbolasers). Also, the Omega-X's used by Clarke's forces destroyed WhiteStars that not only had Minbari shielding but also had Vorlon adaptive armor! Also, turbolasers are NOT laser weapons. They are particle beams. This is the only way to rationalize TL behavior, which is completely inconsistent with that of real lasers. If it doesn't look, walk, or quack like a duck, it ain't a duck.

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.

Did you know that a single Star Destroyer can not only sterilize a planet like the Shadow Planet Killer, but melt its crust? Ever heard of Base Delta Zero? And the Death Star would be utterly invincible in B5. The first Death Star (never mind the second) was so tough that the Rebels' entire armada was useless and they had to use fighters to launch torpedoes into the exhaust ports, which were out of reach of Rebel capital-ship guns.

[Unknown Target]

...which was the dumbest plot device ever. Two little bomb thingies blow up that entire thing?

And did anyone else notice that the "exhaust vent" wasn't really exhausting anything?

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
...which was the dumbest plot device ever. Two little bomb thingies blow up that entire thing?

How else were they supposed to blow it up besides with an act of plot?

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool

Just because it works on the weak plasma weapons of B5 EA doesn't mean it will stop a weapon that is 100,000 times more powerful than the nuke that destroyed a Sharlin in the Earth-Minbari War (the 200-gigaton turbolasers). Also, the Omega-X's used by Clarke's forces destroyed WhiteStars that not only had Minbari shielding but also had Vorlon adaptive armor!.

Irrevelant. They are stated to reduce all damage to physical impact only. Shadow weaponry, on the other hand, is simply that uber.

As for the 200 gigatons, I've got news for you: orbital turbolaser bombardment is nowhere near destructive enough for that.

Originally posted by Woolie Wool

Also, turbolasers are NOT laser weapons. They are particle beams. This is the only way to rationalize TL behavior, which is completely inconsistent with that of real lasers. If it doesn't look, walk, or quack like a duck, it ain't a duck.

So are EA X-Ray lasers. The Sharlin's shielding stops them cold.

[StratComm]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool
...

Did you know that a single Star Destroyer can not only sterilize a planet like the Shadow Planet Killer, but melt its crust? Ever heard of Base Delta Zero? And the Death Star would be utterly invincible in B5. The first Death Star (never mind the second) was so tough that the Rebels' entire armada was useless and they had to use fighters to launch torpedoes into the exhaust ports, which were out of reach of Rebel capital-ship guns.

See, now this is why I have issues with the way power is rated for Star Wars ships.  There's no way one 1.8km ship running on fusion power could generate enough power to liquify over 5 quintillion cubic meters of rock (yes, that is 10^18).  At least the death stars had the size of a small moon to generate enough power to destroy a planet, but even they were horridly overpowered for the power source they were actually using.

[NGTM-1R]

More to the point, evidence available suggest they are simply not that powerful.

If it takes 45 minutes of bombardment by an SSD to severely damage an Alliance base, and even then they fail to get the critical facilites (hanger, weapons storage, powerplant) then there is no way in hell those shots are 200 gigatons.

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
Irrevelant. They are stated to reduce all damage to physical impact only. Shadow weaponry, on the other hand, is simply that uber.

First of all, that is a logical fallacy, the no limits fallacy. Second, prove that the Shadow weapon is a KE weapon and not an energy weapons. Third, the Omega-X destroyers had fusion beams as well as Shadow death rays. The general consensus among versus debaters is that the Minbari couldn't even defeat the Star Trek Federation, let alone the SW Empire.

As for the 200 gigatons, I've got news for you: orbital turbolaser bombardment is nowhere near destructive enough for that.

The SW2ICS is a higher canon than even the EU, subordinate only to the movies and novelizations, per Lucasfilm's canon policy. 200 gigatons is here to stay, period. To boot, Base Delta Zero (total destruction of all lifeforms and resources plus melting the crust and probably blasting away the atmosphere as well in a matter of hours) demands gigaton-range firepower. The only B5 ships that can tackle a Star Destroyer are the Shadow and Vorlon planet killers, and they don't have nearly as much durability as an ISD. B5 = pwnt.

For the record, the bare minimum energy required for a BDZ-style attack is around 50,000,000,000,000,000,000 megatons (that's 19 zeroes!).

So are EA X-Ray lasers. The Sharlin's shielding stops them cold

Uh, maybe the X-Ray lasers aren't powerful enough to overcome a Sharlin's shielding? You can destroy ANYTHING if you pump enough energy into it.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Woolie, Check this out:

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,13735.0.html

Read Cannikin's posts. I laughed my ****ing ass off just reading half of his replies. Can you say 'pwned'?

over 100 200-800 Gigaton weapons with a refire rate of 1-7 seconds per shot, all house on a 1.8 km ship + the Power requirements for all those weapons systems =

If I see Stardestroyer.net posted, I'll kill someone. They actually have the gall to say that an X-Wing blaster generates more energy than the entire U.S. in one shot.

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool

First of all, that is a logical fallacy, the no limits fallacy. Second, prove that the Shadow weapon is a KE weapon and not an energy weapons. Third, the Omega-X destroyers had fusion beams as well as Shadow death rays.

You don't understand how Shadow weaponry works. First, it can bypass shields, both electromagnetic (Star Wars) and gravimetric (Minbari). It generates fusion reactions in the target's hull. The beam in and of itself is actually harmless; it's the side effects. And that's fusion beams, which are Shadow weaponry. The Death Ray is even worse. It causes matter-antimatter reactions. In short, they turn your own hull into giant bomb. Hits from Shadow weaponry are pretty much nonsurvivable no matter your size, armor material, or armor thickness. The Shadows are capable of pwning just about anyone this side of God.

Originally posted by Woolie Wool

The SW2ICS is a higher canon than even the EU, subordinate only to the movies and novelizations, per Lucasfilm's canon policy. 200 gigatons is here to stay, period. To boot, Base Delta Zero (total destruction of all lifeforms and resources plus melting the crust and probably blasting away the atmosphere as well in a matter of hours) demands gigaton-range firepower. The only B5 ships that can tackle a Star Destroyer are the Shadow and Vorlon planet killers, and they don't have nearly as much durability as an ISD. B5 = pwnt.

200 gigatons is utterly ridiculous. You use the excuse that turbolasers must be particle beams because they don't make sense any other way, yet when it comes right down to it they can't be those either because of...POWER REQUIREMENTS. Star Wars ships run on fusion power. This is about as canon as it gets. They can't generate that kind of power. It isn't physically possible. Therefore, 200 gigatons is clearly erronous. This is what happens when you make **** up and then give them a known power source whose rules are understood by modern physics: you end up with something that don't work.

I can think of at least seven of the novels that directly contradict you. That's without consulting my library.

And if I really want to be nasty, I can also point out that a single heavy turbolaser (reference: original version of A New Hope, scenes of the Death Star's gun galleries) is actually about the same size, if not smaller then, one of the chin guns of an AT-AT walker.

And there is no way in hell an AT-AT's chin guns are putting out anything remotely like 200 gigatons.

[Jetmech Jr.]

MwahahahaHAHAHA!

We aren't really trying to make you look foolish, Woolie (at least, I'm not). It's just that those figures are all clearly ludicrous.

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
MwahahahaHAHAHA!

We aren't really trying to make you look foolish, Woolie (at least, I'm not). It's just that those figures are all clearly ludicrous.

ICS is canon because Lucasfilm bloody well said so. This is the company that owns the Star Wars trademark, made all the movies, and is headed by the Big L himself, so they cannot be overriden.

Don't make me bring up the 2MT nukes again.

You don't understand how Shadow weaponry works. First, it can bypass shields, both electromagnetic (Star Wars) and gravimetric (Minbari). It generates fusion reactions in the target's hull. The beam in and of itself is actually harmless; it's the side effects. And that's fusion beams, which are Shadow weaponry. The Death Ray is even worse. It causes matter-antimatter reactions. In short, they turn your own hull into giant bomb. Hits from Shadow weaponry are pretty much nonsurvivable no matter your size, armor material, or armor thickness. The Shadows are capable of pwning just about anyone this side of God.

Don't be stupid. There is NO evidence to suggest that SW shields have anything to do with electromagnetism (in fact there are TWO types of SW shields--particle shields and ray shields) and no evidence that Shadow beams could bypass them. How, pray tell, does it even do this shield bypass? And what exacrly IS a gravimetric shield?

Second, the fusion beam appears to be exclusive to Minbari ships and the Omega-X. No Shadow ship has them. Thus, it doesn't have your ******ific Shadow Shield-B-Gone technology.

Third, the Shadow death ray could not possibly do that because such things are IMPOSSIBLE. Matter does NOT turn into antimatter. Besides, you'd have to pierce the shields for the thing to do anything. The weapon is also called a "molecular slicer", which suggests that it breaks the covalent and ionic bonds between atoms. This is reinforced by the fact that Shadow ships have repeatedly used the beams to slice up enemy ships like turkeys. Even if it can break the exotic types of bonds that are required to give SW hulls their insane strength, the ISD will probably kill it first because a Shadow ship won't even survive the first shot from a heavy turbolaser.

Fourth, most ships, especially the very metallic-looking EA and Imperial ships are made of metal, probably largely iron. Iron and other dense metals do NOT fuse well. You have to heat them into extremely hot plasma, and the resulting reaction will put out LESS energy than there is in the beam. The result would basically be no different from a high-powered laser, because something has to be extremely hot (millions of degrees C) to undergo nuclear fusion.

Finally, hits from Shadow ships are NOT "unsurvivable", as many B5 ships (especially WhiteStars and Vorlon ships) survive direct hits from Shadow ships. The fact that Shadow battle crabs are so destructive against Younger Races ships is because their foes' ships are not durable enough to withstand Shadow weaponry, and only WhiteStars and First One ships are strong enough to resist the weapons.

You have know been officially owned. Have a nice day.

[NGTM-1R]

I have higher canon on my side. ("the novelizations" "the movies")

Consider yourself owned.

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
I have higher canon on my side. ("the novelizations" "the movies")

Consider yourself owned.

If they do not DIRECTLY CONTRADICT the movies and novelizations, then the figures stand. In fact, the heavy turbolasers are only seen in action once (Battle of Endor), and are even then fired at enemy ships and not planets or asteroids. Even without 200GT turbolasers, the Empire still has three things B5 can't match.

1. Death Star I (blows up planets, which is something nothing in B5 has ever done, and could apparently fight an entire Rebel fleet, 200GT turbolasers and all, and win)
2. Death Star II (new and improved, and defeated only by the mother of all lucky breaks)
3. Eclipse battleship (The mini-superlaser can carry out a BDZ instantly, suggesting yields of at least 5e+19 megatons). The only thing that comes close is the VPK, and even that left survivors. The Eclipse kills everything.)

Brian Young's Turbolaser Commentaries

[Jetmech Jr.]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool


ICS is canon because Lucasfilm bloody well said so. This is the company that owns the Star Wars trademark, made all the movies, and is headed by the Big L himself, so they cannot be overriden.

Don't make me bring up the 2MT nukes again.
 

ICS? What?

The Laws of Physics>Lucasfilm

It's the ULTIMATE canon source, overriding any others. If a Stardestroyer has 800 gigaton Turbolasers, then Star Wars doesn't have a scrap of claim to the title Science Fiction, or even Science Fantasy. It's PURE Fantasy (Elves and magic and demons and such).

And I ****ing TOLD You, if I saw SD.net here...

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool
1. Death Star I (blows up planets, which is something nothing in B5 has ever done, and could apparently fight an entire Rebel fleet, 200GT turbolasers and all, and win)[/url]

Um. You mentioned the Vorlon Planet Killer later on in your post so What the F**K are you on about!

Oh and as for a planet killer fighting an entire fleet and only losing due to someone getting very lucky. You have actually seen A Call to Arms haven't you?

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.


ICS? What?

ICS = Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections. As official official literature with LucasFilm's full blessing, it stands only if something in it is DIRECTLY contradicted by novelizations or movies, which means that it overrides EU literature and fan speculation.

The Laws of Physics>Lucasfilm

Boo ****ing hoo. Suspension of disbelief, which is the ONLY system of vs. debating, does not cling 100% to laws of physics, because things in a film or official document may contradict the laws of physics.

[qupte]It's the ULTIMATE canon source, overriding any others.[/quote]
Wrong. On-screen events are. Anything in the super-canon (movies, novelizations, and radio plays), Lucasfilm literature, and EU literature can override laws of physics. The idea is to rationalize the events with the laws of physics as well as you can, but not at the expense of changing canon.

If a Stardestroyer has 800 gigaton Turbolasers, then Star Wars doesn't have a scrap of claim to the title Science Fiction, or even Science Fantasy. It's PURE Fantasy (Elves and magic and demons and such).

Cry me a river. Babylon 5 is called SF even though it has organic living ships that are more durable than the strongest metals, telepaths, super-humanoid aliens (a laughable idea), and Delenn magically changing her species. Star Trek is called SF even though it has gods (Q, Douwd, Apollo, etc.), guns that make people disappear (Whatever happened to the laws of thermodynamics?), and more of those goddamned human-in-makeup aliens. Our beloved FreeSpace is considered SF even though it has ships that fly like airplanes in outer space and lasers that don't act anything like lasers. Warhammer 40,000 is considered SF even though it has souls, sorcery, daemons that eat people's souls and possess machines, and viruses that kill all living beings no matter what they are and set air on fire (these are used to perform Exterminatus, the 40k equivalent of Base Delta Zero). Even Doom is considered SF, even though you not only fight demons but actually VISIT HELL! What you are describing is hard SF, which is pretty damn rare. The only one of those universes I mentioned that might not be considered SF is Warhammer 40,000 due to its blatant use of magic and monsters.

If we're going to play by these rules, then I will make these assertions about B5:

1. Shadow battle crabs don't have that fancy bioarmor, because the laws of physics dictate that bioarmor will not be as strong as Shadow armor and it won't magically adapt to weapons.

2. There are no telepaths, period.

3. There is no FTL, period.

4. Anything "gravimetric", as well as artificial gravity, don't exist because the laws of physics do not allow for an operating mechanism for these.

5. Sheridan either never died or never came back to life after he died the first time.

6. The Omega's rotating section provides a very unequal gravity field that, at floor level, is 10 times stronger than Earth gravity because of the size and speed of the hab module.

7. Hyperspace and anything related to it do not exist (bye-bye, First One power plants)

8. Inertial dampers do not exist in any form.

Um. You mentioned the Vorlon Planet Killer later on in your post so What the F**K are you on about!

The VPK is inferior to the SPK, ISD, Eclipse, or Death Star in planet-wrecking abiliity. It is faster than an SPK or ISD, but it does not perform a complete sterilization.

Survivors indicate mass destruction on a planetary scale. We continue to need medical ships, transports, anything that can fly. We are in special need of atmosphere-capable shuttles to evacuate survivors from the ground.

That's from the episode of Babylon 5 in which the VPK blasted a planet. Not only has the planet not been completely destroyed (unlike Alderaan, which was totally annihalated), but there are even survivors. In a Shadow PK, ISD, Eclipse, or DS attack, no one survives. The VPK would destroy an ISD with a hit from its main weapon, but since the weapon is designed to take out planets, which are really big and move in predictable patterns, it would likely be impossible for an ISD to be hit by the main weapon.

And I ****ing TOLD You, if I saw SD.net here...

The Turbolaser Commentaries are by Brian Young. MW only added some comments, which are clearly marked as added comments and are written in a different color to further distinguish them!

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool
The VPK is inferior to the SPK, ISD, Eclipse, or Death Star in planet-wrecking abiliity. It is faster than an SPK or ISD, but it does not perform a complete sterilization.

I'm not arguing which is better because basically I reckon the argument is retarded. I'm questioning your basic knowledge of the Babylon 5 universe for claiming that nothing in it has ever destroyed a planet when you then go on to mention the Vorlon Planet Killer which quite famously destroyed an entire planet.  (Not glassed. Gone!).

Try watching the last few minutes of The Summoning before you stick your foot further in your mouth and try to tell me that the Vorlons never blew up a planet.

Especially as you're now backtracking and admitting the Shadows can do it.