[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by StratComm
We've got an actual link to StarDestroyer.net.  Get him Jetmech

What's wrong with it? He's only trying to explain Imperial power generators with the precious little information available.

[StratComm]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool


What's wrong with it? He's only trying to explain Imperial power generators with the [size=10]precious little information available[/size].

WHICH IS WHY THE 200 GIGATON VALUE IS COMPLETELY USELESS.

And StarDestroyer.net is self-reinforcing it's own bad numbers, and is biased by excessive fanboyism.

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by StratComm


WHICH IS WHY THE 200 GIGATON VALUE IS COMPLETELY USELESS.

And StarDestroyer.net is self-reinforcing it's own bad numbers, and is biased by excessive fanboyism.

Sorry, 200 gigatons is based on Base Delta Zero, which definitely is not undefined. The effects and nature of the attack are well-known and not disputed by anyone who is half literate, as well as various EU figures. I just told you why the 200-gigaton figure exists a page ago, and you ignored it.

BDZ has been done several times in EU, and there is nothing in the movies, novelizations, or radio plays to say it's not possible. Because planets don't become lifeless lumps of molten rock by themselves, the attacking ships actually have to deliver enough firepower to do it, and that's a lot of energy. We don't know much about SW power generation technology, but we know quite a bit about how much firepower SW ships put out, so hypermatter has to be very energy-dense because energy is not produced by wishful thinking. It's like a nuke: you don't have to know how it works to see that it levels cities and turns islands into glass.

How many times do I have to flog this dead horse before you realize that it's even dead in the first place?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by StratComm
Gridfire: haven't read that series, so I have no idea what the context is.  It's not near as mainstream as SW, but I can't really contest how preposterous that one is.  If your numbers are accurate, then I agree that it's a preposterous amount of energy.  No argument.  Of course, you didn't mention a power source so I can only assume it's something equally fantastic.

If I remember correctly the culture use zero point energy for gridfire. That basically means that although the numbers are stupendous they are actually realistic (If you can get over the improbability of getting at ZPE in the first place )

[Woolie Wool]

Wrong. The Grid is an infinite reservoir of energy that is somehow "between dimensions" that the Culture taps into whenever it wants obscene amounts of energy. Unlike ZPE, it produces virtually infinite energy, and you don't have to give it back within the planck time.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Originally posted by StratComm

We've got an actual link to StarDestroyer.net.  Get him Jetmech

RAAAR!



EU?

In any case, it still can't be 200 GT. Whatever books you got that from, erase them from your mind. It's stupid beyond belief, and the effects witnessed in the movies utterly debunk this.

[Woolie Wool]

The size of the explosions on ships is not a valid gauge, because you don't know what kind of shields and armor those ships have. What happens to planets and asteroids is valid because you know what they're made of and structured like. Unless you know exactly what durasteel is and exactly how shields work you cannot use ship-to-ship battles except for RELATIVE power and durability (i.e. the ISD is X percent more powerful than a Mon Calimari cruiser).

[Jetmech Jr.]

It doesn't matter WTF Durasteel is, if it gets hit by a 800 GT shot, it's ****ing GONE.

Next, as I was saying, no matter WHAT durasteel is, it WILL be vaporized. Not only would all materials in the universe be disociated into plasma, but even the EU would verify that as well. Take the book Dark Apprentice for proof (a book that incidentally refers to the Star Destroyer "planet slagging"). In the end, Admiral Daala's SD's got vaporized in a fraction of a second by the supernova. However, at the distance they are from the star, the temperature of the expanding shockwave has cooled to a mere few million, or even down to the hundreds of thousands of degrees. The surface area of the back of a fleeing SD is quite small so the total energy absorbed is most likely FAR less than the energy in ONE turbolaser shot (remember, a "primitive" 10MT nuke could form a fireball 3 miles in diameter, 3 times larger than a SD on its long side, inside which everything was vaporized). But of course turbolasers act on an exceeding small area (1-2 meters in diameter) yet the amazing shields and "durasteel" shrug them off like stinging flies.

So, in otherwords, if durasteel and shields were so amazingly powerful, the Imperials inside should've just sat on the bridge with sunglasses and a cool glass of lemonade during the supernova laughing at Kyp Durron's pitiful attempts to blow them up.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Wrong. The Grid is an infinite reservoir of energy that is somehow "between dimensions" that the Culture taps into whenever it wants obscene amounts of energy. Unlike ZPE, it produces virtually infinite energy, and you don't have to give it back within the planck time.

Pity ZPE actually had a real science basis at least.

And I'm still waiting for you to admit you're wrong. I've done it twice on this thread at least so far.

[StratComm]

Well three posts got in there and Woolie changed his again.


For the record, no, you don't.  Asteroids vary wildly in structure and composition.

And for the love of god, the "SW > all" argument just doesn't work.  SD.net has tried for years, and the arguments are still mind-numbingly retarded.  It's canon contradicts very badly, and you can't rationalize it away by always choosing the case that supports your theory over the 10 others that don't.  Let me put it this way.  If a blaster was as powerful as it's supposed to be (lets use the autocannon things that Stormtroopers like to set up, since they are more powerful) then why don't the guys getting shot have their chests blown apart?

Oh, and in terms of canonness, I believe the Thrawn trilogy ranks pretty close to the films in terms of reputibility.  In it there are a number of situations where the turbolasers on the Chimera delivering anything over a couple of kilotons would completely not work, since there's no resulting explosion as that kiloton is converted into thermal and kinetic energy.

[Falcon]

Hows about the Mykonians from Urban Assault vs. the Borg from Star Trek :devil:

[Getter Robo G]

and also denounced this same type of argument when I asked on spacebattles.com for help to make the balance chart for the original mod based on power souce and different technologies to be faithful not to any one franchise BUT how much each type of weapon would realistically put out, or stop with shielding. That was the goal, NOT some BS about balancing. Let the chips fall where they may and only the strong would survive, or the most tactically adaptable.

However one argument I would like to contribute is this: That Rebels on the run build a shield generator for Hoth and frustrated an entire FLEET of star destroyers so much cause their 200-800 GT turrets are impotent "a planetary bombardment is impossible now" - weak ass imperial wussies...

 Now these same imperials are forced to do a low tech physical landing to have a team destroy the mega powerful shield generator with a single shot from an At-At that gets in visual range???.

SW is about PLOT not science or technology (even more so than any other franchise). And I love all sci-fi equally, so much I have to be honest. Trek TRIES to be more credible but not by much, B5 is by far the most credible IMHO, not sure about Andromeda as I've only seen like 1/4 of it.

Lets go back a second to the Imperial invasion of Hoth... Ok multiple landing craft can get through the shield no problem (so it only blocks energy based weapons no matter that the fleet,or just ONE of their SD's, can slag the planet in minutes) but physical OBJECTS like ships can get through. Fine I'm an Imperial admiral , I order the evacuation of one large size ship and auto program it to crash INTO the shield generator. As shown the rebels ONLY have an ion cannon and that temporarily disabled the SD attacking the transports. But a falling SD doesn't matter, GRAVITY rules and no matter the impact of the cannon it will have MINIMAL effect on the falling SD's trajectory. Even a near miss will do enough damage to destory or disable the mighty shield generator.... Problem solved no loss of Imperial life at all.. Shield is down , slag the planet, Rebels dead in 10 mins, time for bloody tea.
THE END...  Any Questions???

Oh and if the Empire complains about the $$$ cost for dumping a SD like that for the operation, "They can BILL me!" I'd probably get a friggen medal from Palpatine himself!

As for the Helios or Tsunami at 3000MT's? Impressive, but I doubt it as my fighter would be serverly damaged or outright destroyed by my own backlash or worse friendly fire (damn Ursa wing in my way again...)  in the combat area.

I'm not sure what the final disposition of the chart is going to be but I had envisioned a TOTAL recalibration even for FS weaponry. This is NOT a blind , plug in other universes compared to standard FS2 numbers. OH HELL NO. This was supposed to be a comparision using what we KNOW about materials and how much damage it can take by various weapons. Everything from standard explosive warheads, to beam weaponry. (missiles, lasers, phasers, photonic torpedoes, X-Rays, and anyting else SF has come up with). The point is that MANY of these weapons will fall into the SAME category and probably will have the same ratings. The only true reason they will have actual differences is A.) powersouce, the size and type determines potential output, and B.) delivery device, how that power is channeled to make that efect is taken into consideration.

ie: So the local NUkE plant can make 200TW's (?) but my home outlet can only do 110vlts so I can only shock people in my room with a wire... my delivery device and the power channeled makes for a rather ineffectual weapon although the POTENTIAL is there, the application is insifficiant

Incidently, the most recounted power of a Trek Photon is 64MT. Now did you say 7 thousand times more powerful?  So the FS ordiance would have to be 448,000MT's, obviously it is NOT. Next example please? (or better yet quit while you are ahead)...

"Cannon is what people argue that exists, on ships that do NOT exist!" - My favorite Sci-fi quote ever!

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool

If they do not DIRECTLY CONTRADICT the movies and novelizations, then the figures stand.

And if I really want to be nasty, I can also point out that a single heavy turbolaser (reference: original version of A New Hope, scenes of the Death Star's gun galleries) is actually about the same size, if not smaller then, one of the chin guns of an AT-AT walker.

And there is no way in hell an AT-AT's chin guns are putting out anything remotely like 200 gigatons. Try under one kiloton. That's ICE around the generators. WATER ICE. If anything like a kiloton of energy was released it WOULD ALL MELT. But IT DOESN'T.

Movies. Directly contradictory. Owned. Move along.

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by ngtm1r


And if I really want to be nasty, I can also point out that a single heavy turbolaser (reference: original version of A New Hope, scenes of the Death Star's gun galleries) is actually about the same size, if not smaller then, one of the chin guns of an AT-AT walker.

And there is no way in hell an AT-AT's chin guns are putting out anything remotely like 200 gigatons. Try under one kiloton. That's ICE around the generators. WATER ICE. If anything like a kiloton of energy was released it WOULD ALL MELT. But IT DOESN'T.

Movies. Directly contradictory. Owned. Move along.

Where do you get your arguments? Fallacies-R-Us? The AT-AT's chin guns are blasters, not turbolasers, and the DS's turbolaser turrets are larger than X-Wing fighters (and they're light or medium TLs, IIRC), The AT-AT is not a starship, and does not have starship level weaponry. It doesn't matter how big the guns are. It matters what they do. The AT-AT has never been seen with gigaton-level firepower. Star Destroyers have displayed such firepower many times.

Scratch another Fiver fanwhore argument.

[NGTM-1R]

First, the chin guns of an AT-AT are laser cannon. The side-mount turrets on the head are the blasters. Try looking this up next time. Second, a Star Destroyer has never visibly fired on a target which would allow us to judge its firepower, IE a non-spacecraft target.

So, you're saying that the weapon size has no meaning?

Quite simply, similarly sized weapons have similar damage outputs, unless of course something about one of them is screwed up. So either you've thrown away all logic by saying that the size of the weapon does not matter at all (in which case I demand to know why it isn't possible for me to have a pocket Death Star) or you're saying that the weapons of an AT-AT are delibrately crap and the Empire is stupid, which makes my arguments for a lower level of damage output even more likely.

Hell, you're not even measuring damage output in the right units, for god's sake! Energy weapon output is measured in joules.

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
First, the chin guns of an AT-AT are laser cannon. The side-mount turrets on the head are the blasters. Try looking this up next time. Second, a Star Destroyer has never visibly fired on a target which would allow us to judge its firepower, IE a non-spacecraft target.

WRONG! In TESB, Star Destroyers vaporized large asteroids with a single shot of its light turbolasers.

Quite simply, similarly sized weapons have similar damage outputs, unless of course something about one of them is screwed up. So either you've thrown away all logic by saying that the size of the weapon does not matter at all (in which case I demand to know why it isn't possible for me to have a pocket Death Star) or you're saying that the weapons of an AT-AT are delibrately crap and the Empire is stupid, which makes my arguments for a lower level of damage output even more likely.

I'm tempted to strangle you. If I took two bombs of the same size, one high-explosive and one nuclear, they would NOT have similar damage outputs. The AT-AT's weapons are not as powerful as TLs because the vehicle is too small to have that powerful a generator. Besides, those are likely light and medium TLs, and in footage, the turrets were larger than Rebel starfighters, let alone the chin turret of an AT-AT. Furthermore, Base Delta Zero and the TESB asteroid scenes contradict your power levels. This is preschool level debating that you are displaying.

Hell, you're not even measuring damage output in the right units, for god's sake! Energy weapon output is measured in joules. [/B]

But a generator's output is measured in watts, which are joules per second.

[StratComm]

Ok Woolie, enough is enough.

Argument: A starship is bigger, therefore can have more powerful guns

Counterargument: A star destroyer has hundreds of turrets, all running from the same (proportionally larger) power source.  You can't have both more guns and more powerful guns, because you're expanding quadradically to the roughly linear growth of available power.

Also: the Rebels clearly have access to starship-level weaponry, which by your accounts should devistate an AT-AT.  Why on earth did they not use ONE F***ING GUN of similar power to an imperial turbolaser to just blast the ATAT's at Hoth into kingdom come?

Argument: anything involving "Base Delta Zero"

Counterargument: If I hear that stupid term again I'm really going to go off.  I don't know what novels are referencing it but that's way too powerful for a star destroyer from what they do in the films.  I've brought up the inconsistancy of star wars "canon" before, and I'd gladly do it again.  Refering to the thrawn trilogy again, which are as close to canon as books come, SD's simply don't display that level of firepower.  Ever.  Nor do they show that capacity at Hoth, where slagging the entire planet with an entire fleet isn't even considered.  This goes back to using one piece of evidence that you like while ignoring the 50 that you don't.

Argument: SD Turbolasers vaporized an asteroid in TESB

Counterargument: And?  Asteroids are not necessarily anything close to solid, and the ones we see the SD's destroying have no size context.  Nevermind that, even assuming iron composition, those asteroids breaking up the way they do only warrent maybe kiloton ratings on the guns (which as you've said yourself were the heavy ones).

And by the way, "Fanboy" refers to someone who defends something like this beyond all reason, aka you.  So whenever you spout this garbage, don't imply that we're the fanboys and you're the logical one.

[Fineus]

Jesus H Bubba would you give it a rest? It's all fictional and the fact that anyone could concievably care is doing my head in.

[Woolie Wool]

The EU novels are all the same in canoncity. The Thrawn trilogy, NJO, even KJA's novels are official. Base Delta Zero, a single transport fleet carrying away a planet's oceans, a criminal group building a stripped down Death Star (Darksaber)--it's all canon. Also, the TLs used in TESB are light turbolasers.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Woolie, the turbolaser commentaries you linked to earlier stated that in ten seconds, a single X-wing can put out more power with it's guns then the ENTIRE U.S.

Now, I'm assuming this is supported in this "ICS."

I'm also assuming that the AT-AT's have guns on par or greater than said X-wing Blasters (pls don't say the X-Wings have a superior power source or something, cuz that would just be nonsensical). From what I can find, the U.S. power output, (using only the Nuclear Gens, so it's less than the total) is about 780 Gigawatt Hours.

Do any of the AT-AT's shots do anywhere near the 488 Megaton range of damage?

If anyone sees anything wrong, with my conversions, plz feel free to correct them. I'm working with second hand knowledge...

Note: 1 Mt= 1.6 billion kilowatt hours, correct...?