Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: [DW]-Hunter on January 10, 2007, 07:56:16 am
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Vasudans can shove it, ****ing renegades. :drevil:
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Vasudans are pathetic.
The NTF is the only legitimate authority in this system.
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AFAIK the Belisarius gets owned after those words :p
Vasudans are cuddly, go Vasudans!
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Vasudans are boney and ugly. :P
If you ever played the multiplayer mission cold sword, admiral petrachs kid gets kidnapped by the NTF on his birthday hehe.
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NTF. I hate zods. ;)
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Vasudans. Even the NTF leader thinks that they're a bunch of retards.
And they are! :p
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Vasudans, of course. I mean, they eat NTF headz for lunch. How cool is that?
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To hell with the NTF. They can only possibly have 1/2 the force of the Vasudans anyway. They are a splinter from the Terrans.
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NTF! I mean, who doesn't love genocidal maniacs?
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Me. :P
Oh, and Jews.
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Pfft. NTF-lovers.
Psamtik : - Gunnery control, power up photon beam cannons. Commence plasma core insertion.
Psamtik : - Belisarius, this is the GVD Psamtik. You are ordered to power down and surrender.
Belisarius :- Negative Vasudan. The NTF is the -only- legitimate authority in -THIS- system.
Psamtik : - Surrender or be destroyed Belisarius. This is your final warning.
Belisarius :- Your postering insults us both vasudan. I will not give up my ship.
Psamtik : - As you wish....
Psamtik : - Gunnery control, open fire !
Vasudans : 1. NTF : 0.
Oh , and the only reason that Vasudan admiral broke off with a sobek and a whole bunch of fighters and bombers is he knew what the GTVA was really up to, and wanted to kick bosch's ass, rather then try get him alive.
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hmm you GTVA traitor, you stood around and watched while Aliens killed your fellow human beings for basically no reason - the Belisarius could have been disabled and was heavily damaged. I think the crime belongs with Vasuda.
Anyway, NTF != 1/2 of Vasudans, because the Vasudans had their own splinter groups - the HOL at least.
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Vasudans, because they are better equipped.
Just look at the Hatshepsut.
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you should all be ashamed of yourselves. traitors.
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maybe you guys will think differently about the NTF's power when you play my campaign :P
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Zods kick butt.when we actually see them fight
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Zods kick butt.when we actually see them fight
yeah but the NTF kicks more ass.
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NTF :-
well armed renegades and thugs
got bored of the GTVA
took matters into thier own hands
LOST the fight agains the vasudans
Vasudans :-
Well armed TRAINED force.
Has the Terrans as a valuable ally
they fight with honor of a vasudan that came before him/her
WON the fight against the NTF.
its pretty ovbious, go ZODS!
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lol you left out the part where vasudans are renegades themselfs as well :P
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Vigilantes.
And...Even the NTF leader thinks that they're a bunch of retards.
And they are! :p
QFT
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Rich vasudans or poor terrans... hmm...
I think I'll go with the inventors of the "vacuum cleaner" :p
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Bah, Vasudans are ugly. Army of stupid cattle all the way!
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Vasudans rule
Bah, Vasudans are ugly.
Vasudans females are hot :nod: i wish i had one to take home ;7
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"Gunnery control; fry those ****ers."
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"Now witness the firepower of this fully functional battlestation!" -The Titan Project (my campaign)
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I dont reckon Vasudans are ugly at all. I think they're cool looking. Especially with armor on. I bet their females would look sexy. ;7
I wonder if Vasudans would survive in earth atmosphere, or humans survive on Vasuda prime's atmosphere....
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Neah.....Vasudans would likely freeze to death outside theyr suits because of Earths realtive low temperature. While terrnas would roast in Vasuda primes atmosphere since its so hot there.
But with a few minor adjustments they could survive i think that is if vasudans even breathe oxigen.
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Vasudans! :headz:
I bet their females would look sexy. ;7
well, here is an example of a vasudan female... the picture has been discussed somewhere on HLP time ago, but i don't remember where.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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"Now witness the firepower of this fully functional battlestation!" -The Titan Project (my campaign)
Reminds me of a movie... :lol:
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Zods kick butt.when we actually see them fight
Funny how you profess your support for the Vasudans yet you refer to them by the FreeSpace equivalent of "nigger". "Zod" is not a nice word.;)
As for me, Shivans all the way. Death to the fleshy bipedal scum!
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I dont reckon Vasudans are ugly at all. I think they're cool looking. Especially with armor on. I bet their females would look sexy. ;7
I wonder if Vasudans would survive in earth atmosphere, or humans survive on Vasuda prime's atmosphere....
I think the vasudans can survive in earths atmosphere. if you played Descent : FreeSpace you will have noticed in the final cutscene, two wings of vasudans are trapped at earth, since the delta serpentis node collapsed
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The NTCv Belisaurius failed to surrender, and the loss of life to apprehend them was foolish and unnecessary.
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I dont reckon Vasudans are ugly at all. I think they're cool looking. Especially with armor on. I bet their females would look sexy. ;7
I wonder if Vasudans would survive in earth atmosphere, or humans survive on Vasuda prime's atmosphere....
I think the vasudans can survive in earths atmosphere. if you played Descent : FreeSpace you will have noticed in the final cutscene, two wings of vasudans are trapped at earth, since the delta serpentis node collapsed
It's say the other cutscene featuring two of them sitting in a room with humans while listening to a briefing was better proof personally :D
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I wonder if i can get the zod chick's number...the zod from the poster there :lol:
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I dont reckon Vasudans are ugly at all. I think they're cool looking. Especially with armor on. I bet their females would look sexy. ;7
I wonder if Vasudans would survive in earth atmosphere, or humans survive on Vasuda prime's atmosphere....
I think the vasudans can survive in earths atmosphere. if you played Descent : FreeSpace you will have noticed in the final cutscene, two wings of vasudans are trapped at earth, since the delta serpentis node collapsed
It's say the other cutscene featuring two of them sitting in a room with humans while listening to a briefing was better proof personally :D
Good point, forgot about that cutscene :P
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Seems to me the most pointed theme in Freespace was that of Humanity trying to find it's way in the universe... that's why I voted for Terrans
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its official, NTF wins.... lmao
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you should all be ashamed of yourselves. traitors.
Yes, you are all traitors to your species!
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NTF is the best. :)
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another happy supporter for teh NTF! WOOT!
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I'd say terrans.
Their "bricks of death" can work like kamikaze ships easily if all else fails. And nothing can match the pawnage that is an Orion.
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WEll you are right about the Orion but then again we must not forget the Hatshepsuit! which as we all know can break the back of a Hecate easyli.
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I have no idea what your talking about, the hatshepsut sucks ass Hecate would pwn it, Sobek, the Diemos would pwn that, Typhon, Orion would pwn that. Vasudans suck, end of story. :P
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Actually in many missions I made the Hatsheptsut pawned the Hecate, the Sobek pawned the Deimos, but the Orion kills the Typhon hands down (it didn't even shoot any of its beams).
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funny, every time i see a sobek duel a diemos, diemos wins hands down :P
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Actually, a war with only the NTF against the Vasudans would be interesting. The NTF a better defensive position but that would be countered because the Vasudans have better battlegroups (more experience, better supplied, armed and greater numbers).
Actually in many missions I made the Hatsheptsut pawned the Hecate,
Thats to be expected, more so because they're meant to work together not kill each other.
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That is correct both the Hecate and the Hatsheepsut (sp?) are made to work togheter . The Hecate well when it comes to sheer firepower gets owened by the vasudan counterpart. This is because the Hecate was designed to be more of a caomand and controll ship then for actual combat by the means of its beam cannons. The Hatsheepsut on the other hand has more hp the the Hecate more heavy beam cannons and for what we know an equall amount of squadrons on board. If you look carefully the new vasudan class of ships are made more towards offensive actions rather then comand and controll and defence.
With this said i would say that the GTVA could not of survived for as long as it did without the vasudans and viceversa. Although the NTF they could been better off.
From the last reading in the poll it seems like the terrans lead folowed close behind by the vasudans and then the NTF!
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Your all traitors, You need to defect to the good side, the NTF side :P
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As far as I know, the Hecate has more fighter capacity and AAA defenses than the Hatshepsut and the Hatshepsut has far more firepower than the Hecate.
Your all traitors, You need to defect to the good side, the NTF side :P
*shoots rebel*
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funny, every time i see a sobek duel a diemos, diemos wins hands down :P
Vice versa. :P
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alright best of 3 match, and these are the pictures to prove who got the better.
(http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/7360/1rds5.th.png) (http://img451.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1rds5.png)
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6308/2rjc4.th.png) (http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2rjc4.png)
(http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/5880/3rvu3.th.png) (http://img451.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3rvu3.png)
the traitor Deimos ship won that round.
(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8698/e1xl9.th.png) (http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=e1xl9.png)
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7624/e2bi2.th.png) (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=e2bi2.png)
(http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/1686/e3lu2.th.png) (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=e3lu2.png)
the Allied Vasudan Typhon won that round.
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7130/t1re2.th.png) (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t1re2.png)
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7862/t2ze3.th.png) (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t2ze3.png)
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7675/t3ct3.th.png) (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t3ct3.png)
the Allied Vasudan Hatshepsut won that round.
this is to debunk any strong held belief over ownage of a ship :P
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I would post screenshots of the Sobek killing the Deimos, but right now, since my thing is being stupid, I really can't be bothered.
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are you sure you got it right? I mean how the hell does a tiphoon manage to take out an Orion The orion as far as i know can bring to bear more beam cannons than the typhoon!
As for the Sobek with its forward facing firepower i imagined it just stood there facing the deimos and pouded it to pieces. As for the Hatshepsut you are right it can own a Hecate!
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You can FRED pretty much any capship to kill any other, given the rather simplistic AI.
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face off fight. the deimos can take out 7 hp on a sobek before 1 goes up and the other goes down.
the typhon has a beam turret on the top front firing and one on the bottom rear firing at the orion taking 46 hp out of the orion before it fires.
the hatshepsut has one turret firing at the front and takes out the same amount of hp as the hecate about 30 hp roughly to the hatshepsut aswell. before one goes off in a different direction. then you got the ter-slashes
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funny, every time i see a sobek duel a diemos, diemos wins hands down :P
ha what did i say :P the funny thing is, THE DIEMOS OWNED IT FROM THE SIDE LOL
:wakka:
you guys love that ****ty looking sobek too much... it looks like a giant foot.
how does the orion not win? i see the tyhon blowing up in your screenshots. :P
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funny, every time i see a sobek duel a diemos, diemos wins hands down :P
ha what did i say :P
So I made a miscalculation. So what? I don't care.
/me runs off into a corner and starts crying.
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I once put a Deimos against two cruisers. The Deimos took both down, without the help of fighters, with 75% hull integrity at least. Putting it up against two corvettes, the Deimos won every time....
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you guys love that ****ty looking sobek too much... it looks like a giant foot.
For some reason, this just struck me as really funny. :lol:
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hehe
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33rd "Vengence" Heavy Fighter Squadron (GVF Tauret) and 112th "Steadfast" Fighter Squadron (GVF Shu) ftw. That is all. :p
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Hey, I just ran another BoE mission and the Sobek killed the Deimos.... :wtf:
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Well we love the Sobek beacuse it looks like a giant foot ! Whenever i see one of those i think :" Someone is booing to get a foot up his arse. And i'm generaly right. :D
As for the Deimos I like it too I mean i rather have one on mi side then go against it. The same goes for the Sobek. But then again i neve really liked the typhoon i mean it looks like a truk ran over it.
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Typhoon? What's a Typhoon?
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While there is a seperate Typhoon model out on the independent market, given his borderline illiteracy i'm willing to bet he meant Typhon.
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I know he ment Typhon. I just get so pissed when people say Typhoon. :sigh:
Guess I can't blame them though.
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I know he ment Typhon. I just get so pissed when people say Typhoon. :sigh:
Guess I can't blame them though.
Then use a bloody smiley, then! :p
Anyway, I can understand a nub mistaking Typhon and Typhoon, but after 700+ posts you really should know better. :doubt:
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Mmh.
I hate Hatsheptustusuputsutsuptumutsups too, but many people can't spell that anyway. :P
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Damn i know i tend to misspell words but then again so do other people. And for the love of god i couldnt spell Hats... that vasudan destroyer but i should of known better when it comes to Typhon! (better?) I just wasnt payng atention. Sorry!
But back to the pojnt in question i still have trouble to grasp how exactly does a Typhon :D manage to take out an Orion? It just seems rather....imposible to me at least! That is unless the Orion goes hean on with a Typhon!
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The Orion can bring to bear 1 BGreen and 2 TerSlashes at once, which is probably going to give the Orion quite a starting advantage once it fires its first salvo. The Typhon only has two BVas beams, and it can only target the Orion with one of them. It seems quite impossible that the Typhon would win against an Orion.
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which is why in my first post about who vs who, i was right. Never argue with a veteran :P
although i did under estimate the hatshepsut
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It's a comon mistake. The only reason the Hecate is clasified more powerfull then the Orion is beause of its numerous aaaf defences like missille launchers flack turrets etc. All of these add up to the firepower of the Hecate making its overall firepower greather then that of the Orion but in reality the Hecate is desperately underpowered when it comes to sheer beam cannon firepower. On the other hand its vasudan counterpart has more powerfull beam cannons and more hp to withstand more punishement !
Although nothing in the GTVA arsenal can go head to head with a shivan counterpart. In terms of capital ships! Well maybe to collie can go head to head with anything the shivans can throw at it.
Well i mean ...you know i'm refering to current ship classes. Cuz if its one thing that we learned from the shivans other then the fact that they are very persistent in terms of tactics is that they have a bag full of surprises!
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which is why in my first post about who vs who, i was right. Never argue with a veteran :P
Okay, now you're starting to piss me off.
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LOL, thats what happens when you argue with the wrong dude :P
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Vesudans fly extremely manouverable fighters, NTF flys crap.
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Well i mean ...you know i'm refering to current ship classes. Cuz if its one thing that we learned from the shivans other then the fact that they are very persistent in terms of tactics is that they have a bag full of surprises!
Nah, they just have bigger ships. :P
Honestly, the shivan have the upper hand on the majority of capital ships (the exception being the Moloch and everyone knows why) but that is mostly due to their anti-capital ship firepower, their defenses are quite lacking in comparison with GTVA ships. But if both terran and vasudan technologies were to combine to make a destroyer (I know about the Colossus but this is different :rolleyes:) it would be terrifying indeed, better beam cannons with a great AAA too, imagine a ship combining the capabilites of both Hecate/Hatshepsut in one piece.
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LOL, thats what happens when you argue with the wrong dude :P
Check my sig in a while.
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And just a note about why I am getting pissed off at you.
People do not like to be wrong. And when they are, some people decide to either become a nuisance and be an idiot, or second, they can decide to just move on and try to forget about it. However, if someone comes along and emphasizes every one of your mistakes, it kind of makes forgetting about something hard. I find it hard to believe that someone here can actually decide to be that immature and go along emphasizing every single win they have. Think about how you may effect other people before you go and start being an annoying brat.
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you know, you are having a go at me as well snail. will be a good idea to calm down :) if you are then im sorry for my mistakes.
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Nah hes going at me. lol. he just has anger problems when someone points out his mistakes. People do it to me all the time on this forum.
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Your behaviour is something I would expect of a three year old. Following through with a single mistake. News flash. Joke's over.
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ANYWAYS.... The NTF would have had a good chance of getting the systems they claimed if it wasnt for that damned colossus.
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Nah hes going at me. lol. he just has anger problems when someone points out his mistakes. People do it to me all the time on this forum.
Snail is right, DWH. Try being more respectful. That was poor sportsmanship.
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mmmk. :)
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Let's get off the subject. :)
The Colossus was the death of the rebellion. The NTF could've destroyed a lot more of the GTVA fleet if not for the allied jug. But their destruction was inevidable.
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I doubt the GTVA would be able to take out the NTF without the colossus, have you seen how many ships the colossus has taken out in the command briefings? like atleast 10 destroyers!
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that ship should be more on the front lines attacking ships smaller than the sj to give the GTVA a great chance of holding the shivans back.
as for the NTF, well spliter groups rise and die. The HOL (Hammer Of Light), the GTI (Galactic Terran Intellegence) and now the NTF (Neo-Terran Front), a shame that is i wanted to see the Repluse kami into the Colossus.
but w/o the colossus? well, the NTF and the shivans would of killed the GTVA quickly no doubt and your talking more and more resources diverted from the Nebula ops to discover and destroy the Shivans, so in the end both Terran and Zod forces will have been whittled down from 60 odd ships to 4 either by destruction or defecting to the NTF.
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yep LOL, NTF IS THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
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Actually, yeah, the Colossus did make a difference. A large one. The Shivans and NTF combined is probably enough to take out the Colossus.
The Colossus didn't take out 10 destroyers? From what I remember, it destroyed the Repulse and Andronicus.
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Actualy the days of the NTF were numbered even as you enter the scene. I mean You have like 4 fleets against what 18 or 20? No matter how you look at it the NTF days were numbered. Even if the GTVA sustained a large amount of damage at the hands of the NTF it was nothing compared to the losses of the NTF.
Why beacuse the GTVA had reserves but the NTF on the other hand felt the loss of every single squadron corvette and destroyer.
The Collie just speeded up the death of the NTF. Oh and le us not forget that it was the GTVA Command that alowed Bosch to survive for so long in the first place. They wahted to get theyr greedy little hands on the Iceni and the ETAK. They just could not do that until they were absolutely certain Bosch actualy finished constructing it.
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dont forget who opened that knossos and let the shivans in, if thier was no colossus then... the sands would of shifted toward the ntf and the shivans
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if there was no colossus it's likely the Shivans would have wiped out both the GTVA and the NTF
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wouldnt of mattered anyway, the ntf on one side pushing through systems and the shivans taking vasudan system past bernards star and the shivans come back and reconquer systems and annialate the ntf
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Actualy the days of the NTF were numbered even as you enter the scene. I mean You have like 4 fleets against what 18 or 20? No matter how you look at it the NTF days were numbered. Even if the GTVA sustained a large amount of damage at the hands of the NTF it was nothing compared to the losses of the NTF.
Why beacuse the GTVA had reserves but the NTF on the other hand felt the loss of every single squadron corvette and destroyer.
The Collie just speeded up the death of the NTF. Oh and le us not forget that it was the GTVA Command that alowed Bosch to survive for so long in the first place. They wahted to get theyr greedy little hands on the Iceni and the ETAK. They just could not do that until they were absolutely certain Bosch actualy finished constructing it.
LOL? Did you not see how many destroyers, corvettes, and cruisers the NTF lost to the colossus? Too many to count thats for sure, The Colossus didnt speed up the death of the NTF, it caused it.
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yep LOL, NTF IS THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
You're one of those guys who root for the underdogs, or cheer on the bad guy in the movies arent ya ? :wtf:
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Yep, he is. He's gotta be. No sane Terran would vote for the NTF, I mean, c'mon, who doesn't love vasudans and their fishies
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vasudans suck and so do their ships.
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amen ;)
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Quiet, you!
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Erm, right. The vasudan ships are either superior to, or matched with their terran counterparts. Not to mention the Terran ships have Vasudan engine and power systems, so...
mrah. Why am I even participating in this mindless "debate" thats basically a thinly veiled spam thread for people to go on with their "bigotted" views on a fake species in a video game?
Im just waiting for this thread to degenerate into more spam so I can lock it.
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Better they spam in here rather than in a topic that actually might hold a shred of importance.
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No... better they not spam at all, and save the stupid for IM conversations...
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Im just waiting for this thread to degenerate into more spam so I can lock it.
how is voicing our opinions spam?
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Actualy the days of the NTF were numbered even as you enter the scene. I mean You have like 4 fleets against what 18 or 20? No matter how you look at it the NTF days were numbered. Even if the GTVA sustained a large amount of damage at the hands of the NTF it was nothing compared to the losses of the NTF.
Why beacuse the GTVA had reserves but the NTF on the other hand felt the loss of every single squadron corvette and destroyer.
The Collie just speeded up the death of the NTF. Oh and le us not forget that it was the GTVA Command that alowed Bosch to survive for so long in the first place. They wahted to get theyr greedy little hands on the Iceni and the ETAK. They just could not do that until they were absolutely certain Bosch actualy finished constructing it.
LOL? Did you not see how many destroyers, corvettes, and cruisers the NTF lost to the colossus? Too many to count thats for sure, The Colossus didnt speed up the death of the NTF, it caused it.
Let's see now. GTVA Colossus kills:
NTC Cato
NTCv Hawkwood
NTC Conquest
NTD Repulse
NTD Andronicus
NTC Camisard
NTCv Vanguard
That's all I can really remember. That's two destroyers and a few corvettes.
Im just waiting for this thread to degenerate into more spam so I can lock it.
how is voicing our opinions spam?
Yeah? (rather not argue with Taristin though). :nervous:
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Let's see now. GTVA Colossus kills:
NTC Cato
Shouldn't the Cato supposed to be destroyed by the player?
And you forgot the NTC Congreve, so this evens the error.
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True. But I put it there because I knew it was Vanguard and something else.
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They also destroy,
NTC Vengence
NTCv Amakuni
**** i forgot the others, they are in the OFFICIAL volition multiplayer games.
Edit : Ok the ships are
NTC Napoleon
NTCv Amakuni
NTC Vengence
NTD Alsace
NTD Corsica
NTC Rightous
NTC Retribution
NTC Vindication
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Oh, in multi. Forgot about those. Go raid the Wiki.
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so, this is what gets destroyed...
NTC Napoleon
NTCv Amakuni
NTC Vengence
NTD Alsace
NTD Corsica
NTC Rightous
NTC Retribution
NTC Vindication
NTD Repulse
NTD Andronicus
NTD Uhuru
NTD Vindicator
NTC Cato
NTCv Hawkwood
NTC Conquest
NTC Camisard
NTCv Vanguard
NTF Iceni
NTT Venture
NTC Epigoni
NTC Alba
NTCv Yo****omo
NTT Inspiration
NTC Liberty
NTC Undaunted
NTCv Perseverance
NTCv Pax
NTC Loyola
NTCv Danton
NTCv Belasarius
NTC Glorious
NTC Impervious
Thats a long list of ships, still... I bet there are a few missing ones :P
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Let's see now. GTVA Colossus kills:
NTC Cato
Shouldn't the Cato supposed to be destroyed by the player?
The Suicide Kings Intercept Squadron claimed that kill, along with fire support from Enif Station turrets.
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kk my list has been updated :) if I missed any, let me know.
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wasn't the Vindication in one of the Raptor missions ?
also, the BTF was hust a front for Bosch to raid ancients site/tech so it was more-than-likely always on borrowed time
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no it wasnt, it was from M-03
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Most of these are not destroyed by the Colossus. There real cause is:
NTC Rightous - GTCv Murakami
NTC Retribution - GTCv Murakami
NTC Vindication - GTCv Murakami
NTD Uhuru - GVD Hedetet
NTD Vindicator - GVCv Hyksos
NTC Cato - Enif Station
NTF Iceni - Self Destruction
NTT Venture - GVCv Hyksos
NTC Epigoni - GVCv Hyksos
NTC Alba - GVCv Hyksos
NTCv Yo****omo - Blockade
NTT Inspiration - GVD Hedetet
NTC Liberty - GVD Hedetet
NTC Undaunted - GVD Hedetet
NTCv Perseverance - GVD Hedetet
NTCv Pax - GVD Hedetet
NTC Loyola - GTCv Monitor
And there are 2 Vindicators. One is the NTC Vindication, multi mission, and the other is the NTD Vindicator, Raptor mission.
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Most of these are not destroyed by the Colossus. There real cause is:
NTC Rightous - GTCv Murakami
NTC Retribution - GTCv Murakami
NTC Vindication - GTCv Murakami
NTD Uhuru - GVD Hedetet
NTD Vindicator - GVCv Hyksos
NTC Cato - Enif Station
NTF Iceni - Self Destruction
NTT Venture - GVCv Hyksos
NTC Epigoni - GVCv Hyksos
NTC Alba - GVCv Hyksos
NTCv Yo****omo - Blockade
NTT Inspiration - GVD Hedetet
NTC Liberty - GVD Hedetet
NTC Undaunted - GVD Hedetet
NTCv Perseverance - GVD Hedetet
NTCv Pax - GVD Hedetet
NTC Loyola - GTCv Monitor
And there are 2 Vindicators. One is the NTC Vindication, multi mission, and the other is the NTD Vindicator, Raptor mission.
You forgot that 4 Mjonirs helped the Heditet, the heditet alone would not be able to kill most of them.
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Yeah, but do you think I would write
NTD Uhuru - GVD Hedetet, GVC Unut, Alpha, Beta, Iota wings and 5 Mjolnir RBCs? :P
It was just a little pointer, not a real list or anything. Also, the Murakami didn't actually kill the Righteous, Retri and Vindication, they self destructed from a weapons failure.
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Withouth the Colossus, it just means that the NTF has a fighting chance but not a good one, their situation is already grim on the start of the game with both 13th Vasudan battlegroup and 3rd fleet breaking the NTF forces at Deneb. Also, everyone keeps mentioning the shivans but would the NTF still make the same rush for the portal to capture it withouth the Colossus?
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The final charge to get to the Knossos was set in motion by the destruction of both the NTD Andronicus and the NTD Cyrene, and then the GTVA's attack on both Polaris and Sirius.
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Yeah, but do you think I would write
NTD Uhuru - GVD Hedetet, GVC Unut, Alpha, Beta, Iota wings and 5 Mjolnir RBCs? :P
It was just a little pointer, not a real list or anything. Also, the Murakami didn't actually kill the Righteous, Retri and Vindication, they self destructed from a weapons failure.
Only the rightous explodes from weapons failure, the other two escape. But are probably destroyed later on judging on how things were looking in the campaign
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Withouth the Colossus, it just means that the NTF has a fighting chance but not a good one, their situation is already grim on the start of the game with both 13th Vasudan battlegroup and 3rd fleet breaking the NTF forces at Deneb.
Actually, many of the failure debriefings from the first act of the campaign describe the NTF winning.
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It's funny how saving 3 Satis freighters can cause the destruction of the NTD Jacobus, isn't it? :lol:
Well the player failing some of his missions has nothing to do with the Colly.
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Im just waiting for this thread to degenerate into more spam so I can lock it.
how is voicing our opinions spam?
There is a difference between voicing your opinion and repeating that opinion 5 or 6 times per person. Don't play dumb with me.
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Most of these are not destroyed by the Colossus. There real cause is:
NTC Rightous - GTCv Murakami
NTC Retribution - GTCv Murakami
NTC Vindication - GTCv Murakami
NTD Uhuru - GVD Hedetet
NTD Vindicator - GVCv Hyksos
NTC Cato - Enif Station
NTF Iceni - Self Destruction
NTT Venture - GVCv Hyksos
NTC Epigoni - GVCv Hyksos
NTC Alba - GVCv Hyksos
NTCv Yo****omo - Blockade
NTT Inspiration - GVD Hedetet
NTC Liberty - GVD Hedetet
NTC Undaunted - GVD Hedetet
NTCv Perseverance - GVD Hedetet
NTCv Pax - GVD Hedetet
NTC Loyola - GTCv Monitor
And there are 2 Vindicators. One is the NTC Vindication, multi mission, and the other is the NTD Vindicator, Raptor mission.
You forgot the NTCv Belasarius. The very first demonstration of how much vasudans rock.
You also forgot the NTC Glorious and the NTC Impervious. All 3 were destroyed by the Psamtik.
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I think it is safe to say that with or without the Collie the NTF were pretty much done for. I mean the Vasudans just keep getting more and more of those superb Hatshepsut destroyers to kick ass....while the NTF main fleet was composed more and more of the aging Orion's . And even those were taken out by the GTVA superior fighter's and bommbers. The Collie basicly put it out of its missery. Oh and that is one seriously huge list ok kills to the Collie's agenda.
When the hell did it get around to do all that damage?
Also i believe that the only reason why the GTVA was not able to crush the NTF sooner was because they basicly using hit- and hide tactics (the NTF i mean) . It is verey hard for you to get a decise victory that way chasing down the enemy tring to figure out where he is etc.
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I think it is safe to say that with or without the Collie the NTF were pretty much done for. I mean the Vasudans just keep getting more and more of those superb Hatshepsut destroyers to kick ass....while the NTF main fleet was composed more and more of the aging Orion's . And even those were taken out by the GTVA superior fighter's and bommbers. The Collie basicly put it out of its missery. Oh and that is one seriously huge list ok kills to the Collie's agenda.
When the hell did it get around to do all that damage?
Also i believe that the only reason why the GTVA was not able to crush the NTF sooner was because they basicly using hit- and hide tactics (the NTF i mean) . It is verey hard for you to get a decise victory that way chasing down the enemy tring to figure out where he is etc.
Surrender, Belisarius;
DEBRIEFING 3
As officers of the GTVA, we have sworn to protect all citizens of the Alliance. The destruction of both Iota transports is a travesty, pilot. You have disgraced the 53rd Hammerheads, and I will recommend your immediate discharge from the fighter corps.
The Alliance's offensive is now in shambles. Only 25 percent of the Vasudan refugees have been recovered, while the NTF continues to massacre thousands without mercy.
Command reports we have lost the GTD Aeneas, the GTC Coriolanus, and the GVC Mirage. Our efforts to blockade the Alpha Centauri and Sirius jump nodes have failed. The Security Council will order the fleet to withdraw from Deneb and negotiate terms with the NTF.
The Sixth Wonder
COMMAND BRIEFING 1
Enif Massacre
36 hours ago, the NTF launched a full-scale offensive in Epsilon Pegasi, taking the GTVA 6th Fleet by surprise. Commanding his forces from the NTD Repulse, Rear Admiral Koth leads the rebel advance. With 75 percent of our forces in this system decimated, the regional death toll since the incursion now exceeds 80,000.
Unless we act quickly, a decisive rebel victory is imminent.
Into the Maelstrom
DEBRIEFING 4
Though our mission was overall a success, we lost the Avila. The destruction of a single gas miner will not delay the deployment of the Colossus, but our squadron must accept responsibility for vessels lost on our watch. You're in a leadership position, pilot. Ask yourself what you could have done to avoid this outcome, and what you will do in the future to ensure it never happens again.
Our offensive against the NTF has achieved limited success. Only the Colossus has enough firepower to break this stalemate. If we fail, the Alliance will have no choice but to agree to Bosch's demands.
DEBRIEFING 5
The NTF decimated our supply convoys, forcing Command to withdraw the Colossus and postpone our offensive against Admiral Koth and the Repulse. Your convoy lost all three vessels, a dismal failure by any measure.
The news from the capital in Beta Aquilae is not good. Support for a negotiated settlement is growing in the Security Council, even with the Colossus now operational. Opponents of the Colossus program denounce the project as a monstrosity prone to logistical failure. For Admiral Petrarch and the Aquitaine, this outcome could not be more disastrous.
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What the......! Mi mind still strugles to comprehend how the NTF outnumbered outgunned and with serious shortages in terms of advanced tech. (i'm refering here to new fighters bommbers etc.) could of brought the GTVA to a stalemate! This is ridiculous. but still if that is what is says then it must be so. I just have serois doubts about how this could of happened. I mean what did the NTF managed to get to its side all the strategical genoiuses of the GTVA or what. that would of letf only complete idiots in charge of GTVA fleets.
Anyway thank god for the Collie. And again that is some serois kill list for the Collie. :D
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well the reason why could be because people got intellegent off bosch beer and are a army of super intellegent nerds as soon as they drink the beer :P
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hmmm the GTVA should raid some of their Bosch beer depots and start distributing it through out the GTVA if that is the case. Where can i get a crate of that stuff...i will feed it to....umm...nevermind..one should not have such diaboliacal thought about his own kin. :D
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I wonder how a ragtag fleet of renegades can almost win against the GTVA. Seriously, is the GTVA really that weak?
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They aren't a ragtag group of renegades though. They have at least three systems' worth of resources at their disposal. Plus they have a brilliant strategic leader.
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Actualy come to think of it you are right. They have a milatary genious as thgeyr leader....the GTVA has.....well...the GTVA has the GTVA High Command whicha makes all the decisions. So it's no wonder they managed to get themselfs to stalemate with an inferior enemy both in terms of sheer firepower technology and numbers.
I wonder if it was actualy GTVA Command mistakes that made the NTF seem so strong!
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What the......! Mi mind still strugles to comprehend how the NTF outnumbered outgunned and with serious shortages in terms of advanced tech. (i'm refering here to new fighters bommbers etc.) could of brought the GTVA to a stalemate! This is ridiculous. but still if that is what is says then it must be so. I just have serois doubts about how this could of happened. I mean what did the NTF managed to get to its side all the strategical genoiuses of the GTVA or what. that would of letf only complete idiots in charge of GTVA fleets.
Anyway thank god for the Collie. And again that is some serois kill list for the Collie. :D
One word - NODES!!!
It's like a trench war, you can hold your ground with lesser forces, since the node itself is a tight spot.
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Yes i get it ! But even so the GTVA should of been able to swarm the NTF ! Also that does not explain how the GTVA managed to loose control of several nodes in favor of the NTF.
GTVA Command is composed oh lobotomised retards who make theyr strategical ecisions based on good hand at poker.
Or they got drunk most of the time on Bosch Beer and made all they decisions half past out. :D
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Yes i get it ! But even so the GTVA should of been able to swarm the NTF ! Also that does not explain how the GTVA managed to loose control of several nodes in favor of the NTF.
GTVA Command is composed oh lobotomised retards who make theyr strategical ecisions based on good hand at poker.
Or they got drunk most of the time on Bosch Beer and made all they decisions half past out. :D
Not really. Remember the NTF had the advantage of surprise - and an admiral who probably had control of the defenses of several systems' nodes. Once the first group of 'core' systems was taken - and likely with minimal losses - the NTF had the advantage of being able to stalemate GTVA assaults on their nodes whilst building up resources. Not to mention any defections within the GTVA itself, of course, or insurgency style tactics disrupting GTVA operations in their own systems. And, also, the NTF didn't need galactic but regional superiority - the GTVA still has to assign ships to defend the entire alliance, and (given the defections) would need to bring in an effective replacement fleet whilst still maintaining a reasonable defence. Moreso, the GTVA would need to devote resources to manage the flow of thousands of Vasudan refugees - and to manage them well, given the political schisms created by the rebellion. Finally, there's a possibility that the GTVA would be forced through political necessity to take a more risky and costly offensive strategy than an 'ideal' one.
Of course, anyone who suggests 'swarm' as a military tactic against an entrenched opponent controlling chokepoints, is an idiot. Especially in a war where public opinion is key; the more GTVA dead, the more inclined parliament is to negotiate a ceasefire - ala Vietnam.
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Yes i get it ! But even so the GTVA should of been able to swarm the NTF ! Also that does not explain how the GTVA managed to loose control of several nodes in favor of the NTF.
GTVA Command is composed oh lobotomised retards who make theyr strategical ecisions based on good hand at poker.
Or they got drunk most of the time on Bosch Beer and made all they decisions half past out. :D
uh, did you not see the list of ships the NTF had? I think thats a brutally powerful force to take out, it would still take them a lot longer if it wasnt for the colossus, but their death was inevitable because of their suicidal tactics. Had they have had more conservitive tactics I would think they would be a much more powerful, and probably more defects to the NTF.
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Yes i get it ! But even so the GTVA should of been able to swarm the NTF ! Also that does not explain how the GTVA managed to loose control of several nodes in favor of the NTF.
GTVA Command is composed oh lobotomised retards who make theyr strategical ecisions based on good hand at poker.
Or they got drunk most of the time on Bosch Beer and made all they decisions half past out. :D
yes the GTVA is formed of retards but dont forget even a retard has a brain. the GTVA like today in the usa and a few other countries, you got the governement bickkering about what to do about veitnam, lets put it like this for the moment, veitnam is the NTF and the GTVA is well usa, canada, australia, uk.
now you got a great stratiest who is bosch who is the gruilla leader in the veitcong, hes the most powerful on the enemy side then got the GTVA leaders who put it this way are bickkering amoung themselves to decide what to do, this just puts the GTVA at a serious disadvantage already because there is no stability from higher up, meanwhile on the enemy is concerntrated and waiting with several plans and several more continency plans, just incase things start sliding backward, now without the main weapon from the GTVA the collosus meaning the b42 bombers, the gtva cant really do much in term of anything except fight. several months down the line and bosch has several key positions in the war wrapped and several cities keyyed in then, he then gets pushed back, then they push the the GTVA back with plan b, and key the cities back this time plan b is working, the GTVA is getting cut to pieces quickly and without the Collosus (b42 bombers) this war is heading to the NTF (veitcong).
and in the same war with the b42 bombers, all the GTVA needed to do is to chop off there hands. send some covert ops in and bomb the key recruiting grounds, weapons factories, and sniper the key leaders before the veitcong could of responded, then send the main guns of the GTVA in and destroy the rest, NTF easily dealt with.
that atleast how i see the battle against the NTF
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GTVA High Command is not a retard. He is an evil genius who is going to get control of ETAK.
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that etak device, i wonder what evil the GTVA will do with that device :mad2:
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Of course, anyone who suggests 'swarm' as a military tactic against an entrenched opponent controlling chokepoints, is an idiot.
Digs up Field Marshal Haig for Aldo to have a go at him too :D
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chances are the vasudans are not gunna let the etak device be used. :P
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GTVA high command needs to try some of this stuff.
(http://www.beercanman.com/jan2006pics/bosch1-pic1.jpg)
But seriously, I side with the strongest here. Its pointless to argue "NTF this, GTVA that, Vasudans blahblah" when the Shivans could just come in and pwn all. Just look at their Flagship Destroyer, the Ravana. With all destroyers in optimum positions (Ravana facing forward, Orion facing Starboard, Hoover facing forward at an angle) the Ravana wins. Sure its vulnerable from the back, but Shivans have crazy numbers. They could just warp in another Ravana to pwn whatever ship is ass raping the first Ravana. The Rakshasha is the best anti capship cruiser hands down, the Lilith is tough as nails, the Sathanas can easily pwn a Coli (again, both in optimal positions), and their bombers (especially Nephilim and Seraphim) have the firepower of a small cruiser. Not to mention the Mara, and the Dragon, with manuverablility only comparable to the GVF Seraphis.
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yes the shivans can destroy the NTF and GTVA easy, back ot. this is about the NTF v GTVA :P not GTVA v Shivans.
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Well it was in the poll. :(
:nod:
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then someone made a mistake :P
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Well swarming heavyli defended nodes seems to work very well for the shivans. But then againg theyr ships are designed for this kind of situations.
The only other destroyer that I see in the game besides the shivan ones that has a decent forward firepower i believe is the Hatshepsut. That thing has both forward and side mounted heavy beam cannons. It has more hp then any other destroyer in the game as far as I know. Combine that with a few wings of foghters and bommbers and even though a node defence could be smashed through. however there is the political factor involved.
I think we all know that when politicians get involved in war the s**t hit's the fan an it is very posible that an all mighty army can lose a war it should have won easily.
Oh here is a quaestion: Wouldnt it of been better if the Vasudans did most of the fighting ?
I mean this way they would get a sort of payback for the NTF crimes. Also the terrans would be heavyli involved in the war as well but with more presence for the vasudan warships. Couple this with a strong propaganda campaign against the NTF and who knows they could of done better in the war.
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Well swarming heavyli defended nodes seems to work very well for the shivans. But then againg theyr ships are designed for this kind of situations.
The only other destroyer that I see in the game besides the shivan ones that has a decent forward firepower i believe is the Hatshepsut. That thing has both forward and side mounted heavy beam cannons. It has more hp then any other destroyer in the game as far as I know. Combine that with a few wings of foghters and bommbers and even though a node defence could be smashed through. however there is the political factor involved.
I think we all know that when politicians get involved in war the s**t hit's the fan an it is very posible that an all mighty army can lose a war it should have won easily.
Oh here is a quaestion: Wouldnt it of been better if the Vasudans did most of the fighting ?
I mean this way they would get a sort of payback for the NTF crimes. Also the terrans would be heavyli involved in the war as well but with more presence for the vasudan warships. Couple this with a strong propaganda campaign against the NTF and who knows they could of done better in the war.
The Shivans have, from our perspective, superior technology (even if it's not reflected in gameplay, it is in the various briefings and descriptions) and - crucially - near infinite resources. Moreso, the Shivans don't seem to have a political leadership that'd sue for peace.
Politicians are always involved in war; they're the ones who usually start it and dictate what constitutes a victory. Bosch may have been the leader of the NTF, but even he would have a cadre of civillian politicians, if only to keep the populace of occupied/defected Terran colonies happy (Vasudan colonies, of course, being wiped out or purged). And it doesn't require politicians to see a theoretically stronger army lose; just look at the Persian invasion of Greece and the famous battle of Thermopylae (where 300 Spartans and a few thousand -at most - allied troops entrenched in a narrow pass held off a Persian army of over 200,000, inflicting at least 100,000 casualties - and only lost because of a betrayal).
You're assuming the Vasudans didn't engage in most of the fighting - which to me is a rather dodgy assumption, given that Bosch used the NTF as a cover for recovering artifacts in Vasudan space. As a pilot in the Terran side of the GTVA, don't you think it'd be inevitable that you'd see the Terran side of the war, and indeed of command decisions and output?
(albeit also bear in mind a war predominantly led by Vasudan forces could enhance the polarisation between Terran and Vasudan that the NTFs' xenophobic rebellion created)
]
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Politicians are always involved in war; they're the ones who usually start it and dictate what constitutes a victory. Bosch may have been the leader of the NTF, but even he would have a cadre of civillian politicians, if only to keep the populace of occupied/defected Terran colonies happy (Vasudan colonies, of course, being wiped out or purged). And it doesn't require politicians to see a theoretically stronger army lose; just look at the Persian invasion of Greece and the famous battle of Thermopylae (where 300 Spartans and a few thousand -at most - allied troops entrenched in a narrow pass held off a Persian army of over 200,000, inflicting at least 100,000 casualties - and only lost because of a betrayal).
That is one of the things im trying to point out, the NTF had plenty of ships and fighters to wipe out the GTVA if real tactics were used. Numbers dont mean anything when it comes to good tactics. Create a plan then execute is all thats needed. The NTF didn't have a leader really, he was so focused on talking to the shivans rather then concentrating on the rebelion. But the whole campaign leaves as at a hinge really. The destruction of the NTF does NOT mean that there are still some out there in the boarder worlds building up their forces again, which is basicly what my campaign is about.
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WEll about the battler between the persioans and the greek army and allied forces as far as i can remember the site was chosen becasuse it could channel the huge persian army into well planned killing field. Also the greek army had something that the persians did not have and that is the abilaty to keep the persians at a distance with theyr long spears. In Fs you do not have such abilaty. I mean to keep the enemy at bay so that it can not inflict any significant damage upon you.
The bottom line is that the war could of been won even without the Collie if the GTVA could afford the losses.
Also the node blocade tactic was used by the GTVA as well but to no such excelent outcome.
Also i believe that one of teh reasons the NTF managed to hold out during node blocades was in fact because they wre using a superior ships to blocade the node. Which one? The Orion of course. I mean the GTVA has the new Hecate which kind of suck when it comes to sheer beam firepower.
I was thinking if the NTF could of been starved to death. I mean how much supllies can you have n just 3 sistems? They must of suffered amunitions paere parts food etc shortages do to the GTVA's constant attaks on theyr core sistems.
But i do understand how the GTVA was slowly gooing towards a stalemate with the NTF. I just have a very hard time grasping the whole thing.
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WEll about the battler between the persioans and the greek army and allied forces as far as i can remember the site was chosen becasuse it could channel the huge persian army into well planned killing field. Also the greek army had something that the persians did not have and that is the abilaty to keep the persians at a distance with theyr long spears. In Fs you do not have such abilaty. I mean to keep the enemy at bay so that it can not inflict any significant damage upon you.
Actually, that's wrong on a number of levels. The first thing is that the Persians did have long range weaponry - specifically archers (indeed, it was archers who killed the Spartans, although only after the Persians had been told of the back 'door' to the Greek position) Whilst the Greeks had long spears, they also had tactical superiority and better organisation (as well as heavier armour). In short, the Thermopylae example is not one of having long range weapons, but of tactical superiority - being able to pick and choose a battle in a choke point, where the enemies numerical advantage is negated by forcing them into a position where they can only attack in managable numbers. That's how you 'keep the enemy at bay' in FS2 (at least, as far as the NTF is concerned) - you force them to attack fortified blockade points on either side of a jump node. (Because let's not forget that open space is very open, thanks to intrasystem jumps)
The bottom line is that the war could of been won even without the Collie if the GTVA could afford the losses.
Which it couldn't afford. Which makes that a rather vapid statement, don't you think? Any war can be won by a side that can 'afford the losses'.
Also the node blocade tactic was used by the GTVA as well but to no such excelent outcome.
Debatable; the NTF is more or less decimated when it goes on the offensive and faces those blockades - bear in mind that the GTVA was the one trying to recapture territory, all the NTF needed to do (aside from Boschs' real agenda) was hold their territory long enough, and inflict enough casualties, to force the GTVA to sue for peace.
Also i believe that one of teh reasons the NTF managed to hold out during node blocades was in fact because they wre using a superior ships to blocade the node. Which one? The Orion of course. I mean the GTVA has the new Hecate which kind of suck when it comes to sheer beam firepower.
Well, anything with reasonable parity of force is sufficient to blockade a node; the NTF already had a clear tactical advantage, regardless of weaponry.
I was thinking if the NTF could of been starved to death. I mean how much supllies can you have n just 3 sistems? They must of suffered amunitions paere parts food etc shortages do to the GTVA's constant attaks on theyr core sistems.
*looks at earth*
Hmm, quite a lot. And the GTVA, at least during the time of FS2, was not attacking the core NTF systems. Check the very first (non-training) briefing;
Integral to NTF ideology is Bosch's vision of Neo-Terra, a utopian society where the lost grandeur of Earth will be restored. Bosch and his followers oppose any alliance with the Vasudans as a threat to the future of the human race.
The rebels are entrenched in Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius. But before we hit these strongholds, we must secure Epsilon Pegasi, Alpha Centauri, and Deneb. These contested systems are now the focal point of allied operations.
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But i do understand how the GTVA was slowly gooing towards a stalemate with the NTF. I just have a very hard time grasping the whole thing.
They were going twords a stalemate for sure, if it wasnt for the colossus, I'm pretty sure the GTVA would end up giving up and handing those systems to the NTF because they didn't want to lose what was left of their forces. Sure the GTVA could wipe them out without the colossus, but then again, the NTF had those suicidal tactics which gave them that disadvantage that made it posible for the GTVA to wipe them out so quickly. I just think a NTF campaign after capella would be quite different, which is one of the reasons why I am making one. I dont feel like revealing the story so you will just have to wait and see what its like :D
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Now yove done it Hunter. Now il keep thinking what that campaign of yours actualy involves. Is there any way i can.....bribe you into giving more details??
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Of course, anyone who suggests 'swarm' as a military tactic against an entrenched opponent controlling chokepoints, is an idiot. Especially in a war where public opinion is key; the more GTVA dead, the more inclined parliament is to negotiate a ceasefire - ala Vietnam.
In FreeSpace 2, the only way to entrench yourself is back yourself up with lots of other capships. If several warships (I'm thinking about two Orions with cruiser escort, though that would be incredibly expensive) came through a node, with a fighter/bomber complement, they would more than likely be able to take out everything around it at once, thanks to the element of surprise. Mjolnirs were, let's not forget, not available to the NTF. Whether you could then survive against a massive counterstrike is another debate entirely. If used correctly, and FS nodes never are, you could easily organize the warships in the jump corridor just before jumping out of the node, resulting in a larger force faster, instead of just sending in a ship whenever it's ready.
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Now yove done it Hunter. Now il keep thinking what that campaign of yours actualy involves. Is there any way i can.....bribe you into giving more details??
I only reveal the story to those who participate into making the mod. We should have it done by summer time, maybe even earlier. But don't worry, you WONT be disappointed!!!
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Actualy the days of the NTF were numbered even as you enter the scene. I mean You have like 4 fleets against what 18 or 20? No matter how you look at it the NTF days were numbered. Even if the GTVA sustained a large amount of damage at the hands of the NTF it was nothing compared to the losses of the NTF.
Why beacuse the GTVA had reserves but the NTF on the other hand felt the loss of every single squadron corvette and destroyer.
The Collie just speeded up the death of the NTF. Oh and le us not forget that it was the GTVA Command that alowed Bosch to survive for so long in the first place. They wahted to get theyr greedy little hands on the Iceni and the ETAK. They just could not do that until they were absolutely certain Bosch actualy finished constructing it.
This reminds me of a great movie quote:
"Send out the archers..."
"But Sir, we'll hit our won troops!"
"So? We have reserves, they don't... Fire."
or something like that...
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This reminds me of a great movie quote:
"Send out the archers..."
"But Sir, we'll hit our won troops!"
"So? We have reserves, they don't... Fire."
or something like that...
Wich movie is that?
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Of course, anyone who suggests 'swarm' as a military tactic against an entrenched opponent controlling chokepoints, is an idiot. Especially in a war where public opinion is key; the more GTVA dead, the more inclined parliament is to negotiate a ceasefire - ala Vietnam.
In FreeSpace 2, the only way to entrench yourself is back yourself up with lots of other capships. If several warships (I'm thinking about two Orions with cruiser escort, though that would be incredibly expensive) came through a node, with a fighter/bomber complement, they would more than likely be able to take out everything around it at once, thanks to the element of surprise. Mjolnirs were, let's not forget, not available to the NTF. Whether you could then survive against a massive counterstrike is another debate entirely. If used correctly, and FS nodes never are, you could easily organize the warships in the jump corridor just before jumping out of the node, resulting in a larger force faster, instead of just sending in a ship whenever it's ready.
There's a number of assumptions there, though; firstly whether it's possible to synch up jumps in such a way (the haste shown at the end of FS1 indicates it's no trivial matter to 'share' a jump corridor with another ship), secondly it's assuming there aren't things like mines or heavy defense emplacements we've not seen (admittedly, it is a fair assumption - you'd expect to see them, after all), thirdly it's assuming blockades only take place on one side (I believe there are a number of cbs in the main campaign that have the GTVA defending the node from the 'entry' side, presumably for the reason of preventing such an organized attack), fourthly it's possible (if not probable) that the NTF could bring to bear sufficient firepower by way of cruisers and corvettes (to support their bombers and destroyers), and fifthly the NTF would expect and defend against any such attack.
Also, a blockade would not necessarily need to destroy an attacker, but merely damage it in such a way as to force retreat - for example, removing those 2 destroyers would force the cruisers to withdraw due to lack of fighter cover. After all, I'd wager a blockade 'run' wouldn't just need to penetrate, but to destroy all opposition and secure the node - and do so whilst other enemy ships were reinforcing the blockade (I doubt any blockade would just be a single line).
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'you take away the enemies hand and they cant push that button', quoted from somewhere.
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'you take away the enemies hand and they cant push that button', quoted from somewhere.
Starship Troopers
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There's a number of assumptions there, though; firstly whether it's possible to synch up jumps in such a way (the haste shown at the end of FS1 indicates it's no trivial matter to 'share' a jump corridor with another ship), secondly it's assuming there aren't things like mines or heavy defense emplacements we've not seen (admittedly, it is a fair assumption - you'd expect to see them, after all), thirdly it's assuming blockades only take place on one side (I believe there are a number of cbs in the main campaign that have the GTVA defending the node from the 'entry' side, presumably for the reason of preventing such an organized attack), fourthly it's possible (if not probable) that the NTF could bring to bear sufficient firepower by way of cruisers and corvettes (to support their bombers and destroyers), and fifthly the NTF would expect and defend against any such attack.
Also, a blockade would not necessarily need to destroy an attacker, but merely damage it in such a way as to force retreat - for example, removing those 2 destroyers would force the cruisers to withdraw due to lack of fighter cover. After all, I'd wager a blockade 'run' wouldn't just need to penetrate, but to destroy all opposition and secure the node - and do so whilst other enemy ships were reinforcing the blockade (I doubt any blockade would just be a single line).
You make good points, and I only just realized the difficulty of lining up ships in a corridor. Still, you can receive messages from Command in a subspace corridor, so ship-to-ship communications, including co-ordinates, should be able to cross whatever dimensions prevent the two from seeing or touching each other in subspace, if only by being routed through Command. In this way, you could enter formation without having to use tracking technology, which, by the way, may very well be easy and fast to use by now. The haste in FS1 came from the late discovery of the technology and the race to implement it.
The GTVA would quite obviously take this side of the node first, assuming it's not heavily defended. Thusly 2 (undamaged, which is a bit stretching it,) Orions, despite the huge expense, could very well take out whatever the NTF had on their side with ease, which could be Orions, it could be corvettes, it could be cruisers, anything. It isn't often we see 2 friendly Orions together at once (read: massive amounts of money). For example; Allied force jumps in, NTF is surprised and opens fire with, say, Orion, Aeolus cruiser, and Fenris cruiser. While Allied Orions vaporise NTD Reliance/Resistance/Revulsion, the NTD Triumphant/Tedious/Truant warps in to reinforce the blockade. The bombers, guided by the impenetrable armour that is Alpha 1, pound it and the cruisers. The Orions are moderately damaged, and are reinforced by the Aquitaine, Alpha 1 gets promoted, and the day is saved. Of course, there are many other ways this battle could go.
The NTF is a much smaller entity than the GTVA, and has nowhere near their resources. I doubt they would send an armada to fend off GTVA attack, not unless they were pushed back to their core systems, and even then, in FreeSpace, we never see a battle where capship after capship on both sides get pulverized and new ones taking their place. One side always retreats, even though one location in space provides no strategic advantage to another.
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The NTF might be smaller, but it has less ground to cover. And in FS we never really see a blockade run, only the consequences.
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The NTF might be smaller, but it has less ground to cover. And in FS we never really see a blockade run, only the consequences.
Yeah, you never get to see the NTF kickin' ass in the campaign like they tell you in the command briefings what the GTVA has lost.
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The NTF might be smaller, but it has less ground to cover. And in FS we never really see a blockade run, only the consequences.
Yeah, you never get to see the NTF kickin' ass in the campaign like they tell you in the command briefings what the GTVA has lost.
Doubly so for the Shivans, too. It's pretty clear, IMO, that what Volition wanted to show was constrained by making the game playable and fitting in with hardware - no doubt it'd be more 'realistic' to show Battle of Endor type scenarios, but utterly unplayable too.
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Well i do not actualy have a star map at mi dispoisal right now but i was wondering what if the GTVA would mass most of its fleet on the 3 or so nodes heading for the NTF and viceversa and start a massive campaign of atrition with the NTF !
I mean i have serious dounths that the NTF can split it forces 3 ways or something like that and mount any serious defence force. They would just be crushed by the sheer numbers of bommber fighters and warships the GTVA has assembled.
At least that is what i figure would happen. Feel free to corect me!
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Well i do not actualy have a star map at mi dispoisal right now but i was wondering what if the GTVA would mass most of its fleet on the 3 or so nodes heading for the NTF and viceversa and start a massive campaign of atrition with the NTF !
I mean i have serious dounths that the NTF can split it forces 3 ways or something like that and mount any serious defence force. They would just be crushed by the sheer numbers of bommber fighters and warships the GTVA has assembled.
At least that is what i figure would happen. Feel free to corect me!
The GTVA would rapidly lose as a consequence of growing political pressure to end the wasteful and costly tactic of attrition, combined with a likely outcry from the inhabitants of those systems which were 'abandoned' by the fleet leaving to throw itself into the barrels of the NTF. The NTF is already shown to be capable of splitting its forces up and taking the offensive (by contesting multiple systems) in the command briefings, it's scarcely a long step to imagine them retreating to a holding position.
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This reminds me of a great movie quote:
"Send out the archers..."
"But Sir, we'll hit our won troops!"
"So? We have reserves, they don't... Fire."
or something like that...
Wich movie is that?
Braveheart. Followed the story of William Wallace and the fight against the english.
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Well the way i see it the NTF manages most of its so called victories through speed and surprise. They do not have any real victory over the GTVA ! I mean sure the GTVA lost a few battles but so did the NTF every time they wanted to comence a...muscle contest with the GTVA . The GTVA is almost alway asiningn warships and fighter bommber squadrons to guard convois and stuff like that form the hit and run tactics of the NTF. I stand off the NTF would be eaten alive by the GTVA. The GTVA has the superior number and the superior warships at its disposal. What the GTVA does not have is a powerfull enough driving force behind them.
I mean most of the time we get debriefings on the outcome of lost battles by the GTVA there are mostly about GTD or GTCv or GTC there are not so many GVD etc.
I mean the vasudans seem to want to fight this war and win it a lot more then the terrans and are generaly more determined .
Also they ahve some better warships. :P
Also by what we have seen by the NTF with regards to them splitting up their forces can be better called reasining of available forces. I mean there are a few instances where the NTF takes warships from other theaters of operations of from other missions just to bail out some of theyr own ships which are cornered of face serious GTVA forces. The same can be said for the GTVa but at leats there you actualy know where most of those warships are and why the odds when it comes to cap ship battles are most of the time even between the 2 forces.
Mi belief is that if the GTVA woul of pulled out at least half of theyr forces from escort guarding duties and put them towards front line action then the war would of been a lot harder for the NTF.
Of course that would of meant some more casualties in terms of civilians but then again some risks are necesary in order to ensure the safewty of the masses.
Also did any of you notice that vasudan warships generaly have more kills then theyr terran counterparts. Well most of the time i think the Deimos has more kills in general then the Sobek.
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The NTF is stupid cattle.
HA!!! Thats canon, too!! :drevil:
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Well the way i see it the NTF manages most of its so called victories through speed and surprise. They do not have any real victory over the GTVA ! I mean sure the GTVA lost a few battles but so did the NTF every time they wanted to comence a...muscle contest with the GTVA . The GTVA is almost alway asiningn warships and fighter bommber squadrons to guard convois and stuff like that form the hit and run tactics of the NTF. I stand off the NTF would be eaten alive by the GTVA. The GTVA has the superior number and the superior warships at its disposal. What the GTVA does not have is a powerfull enough driving force behind them.
I mean most of the time we get debriefings on the outcome of lost battles by the GTVA there are mostly about GTD or GTCv or GTC there are not so many GVD etc.
I mean the vasudans seem to want to fight this war and win it a lot more then the terrans and are generaly more determined .
Or, the rebellion of a xenophobic Terran fleet is seen -politically- as best handled by Terrans, and falls within the Terran sphere of influence.
Also they ahve some better warships. :P
Also by what we have seen by the NTF with regards to them splitting up their forces can be better called reasining of available forces. I mean there are a few instances where the NTF takes warships from other theaters of operations of from other missions just to bail out some of theyr own ships which are cornered of face serious GTVA forces. The same can be said for the GTVa but at leats there you actualy know where most of those warships are and why the odds when it comes to cap ship battles are most of the time even between the 2 forces.
I'm afraid I couldn't understand a word of that. What's your point?
Mi belief is that if the GTVA woul of pulled out at least half of theyr forces from escort guarding duties and put them towards front line action then the war would of been a lot harder for the NTF.
Of course that would of meant some more casualties in terms of civilians but then again some risks are necesary in order to ensure the safewty of the masses.
The masses tend to get pissed off at that; and it's the masses who control the politicians and the military. In case you've forgotten, the NTF were massacring Vasudans; what sort of impact do you think it'd have on the Terra-Vasudan Alliance if Command decided "let the Vasudan civillians fend for themselves, they're not worth our effort to defend"? How would that help in stopping mutual distrust and suspicion between species?
Also did any of you notice that vasudan warships generaly have more kills then theyr terran counterparts. Well most of the time i think the Deimos has more kills in general then the Sobek.
Ummmm, isn't that a direct contradiction? What about fighter/bomber kills? Plus, who has most ships deployed in combat?
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Well i would have to say that terrans have more ships pe total but if we are talking specific ships i must say vasudans seems to send out Sobek corvettes the same way terrans send fighter wings. :D
Also mi previous point was that while the GTVA has some reserves limited because of theyr extensive escort duties the GTVA actualy has some reserves. But the same can not be said about the NTF. A corect phrase in regards to the the NTF reinforcement would be to say thet theyr have no real reinforcements they just have a very rapid redlepoiment of forces tactic.
Another point is that in a stand off between the GTVA and the NTF the NTF would be eaten alive because no matter hom small the reinforcements of the GTA mai be they are huge compared to the none available for the NTF.
In regards to the civilians .....well.......sometimes a good dictatorship can get the things through :D :P
Also if the vasudans want theyr precious cargo so badly then they shouyld just asigne more god damn capships. I mean the terrans have like what 3\4 of theyr fleets engaged in the war with the NTF? From all we know the vasudans have just 2 fleets.
Also i believe terrans should just scrap theyr destroyer manufacturing program and buy them from the fish guis since vasudan destroyers like the Hatsheepsut are more suited for prelonged comb at.
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Well i would have to say that terrans have more ships pe total but if we are talking specific ships i must say vasudans seems to send out Sobek corvettes the same way terrans send fighter wings.
What makes you think that?
Also mi previous point was that while the GTVA has some reserves limited because of theyr extensive escort duties the GTVA actualy has some reserves. But the same can not be said about the NTF. A corect phrase in regards to the the NTF reinforcement would be to say thet theyr have no real reinforcements they just have a very rapid redlepoiment of forces tactic.
What makes you think...er, to repeat myself.... that? Reinforcements are the number of 'unused' ships that can be pushed onto the battlefield; I'm not sure what evidence is there that indicates the NTF do not have a reserve, especially considering the smaller territory they need to hold. (bearing in mind that, if you disregard Boschs' secret motives, the NTF only needed to hold a core of 3 or 4 systems and force a stalemate to achieve their aims)
Another point is that in a stand off between the GTVA and the NTF the NTF would be eaten alive because no matter hom small the reinforcements of the GTA mai be they are huge compared to the none available for the NTF.
Eaten alive?
Again, I'd like your basis for the assumption that the NTF a) has no reserve forces and b) no production capacity. Particularly given that a standoff would involve a siege against a well-prepared defense with the 'high ground', where there would be distinct possibility that NTF losses would be proportionally less than the GTVAs (and thus perhaps could be considered more replaceable).
In regards to the civilians .....well.......sometimes a good dictatorship can get the things through
It's not a dictatorship, so I presume you concede my point?
Also if the vasudans want theyr precious cargo so badly then they shouyld just asigne more god damn capships. I mean the terrans have like what 3\4 of theyr fleets engaged in the war with the NTF? From all we know the vasudans have just 2 fleets.
Unfortunately, you can't just magic up capital ships in a war from nowhere. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Vasudans needed to be evacuated. There was system(s) wide conflict. It's a tremendous waste of resources to assign even a cruiser to every little convoy of 2 or 3 ships.
Also i believe terrans should just scrap theyr destroyer manufacturing program and buy them from the fish guis since vasudan destroyers like the Hatsheepsut are more suited for prelonged comb at.
Comb at? I always thought Petrarch was bald.......
(sorry :D)
That's arguably true, except that the Hatshepsut and Hecate aren't necessarily intended for the same purpose; the Hecate has always appeared more of a C&C carrier than the Hatshepsut, and it's pretty strongly arguable IMO that the two complement each others' roles in the fleet. If we presume that the armament of the Hatshepsut required a reduction of fighter capacity to compensate, then it'd be simply folly to remove the Hecate.
Of course, it's also worth noting the likelihood that Vasudan ships aren't the most comfortable for Terrans - and also the political difficulties of relying upon an alien species (even an ally) for your key defensive vessels.
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How did this thread become so large?
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How did this thread become so large?
Work related boredom.
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Well the ntf did capture a couple of shipyards if not only one, that was how bosch built the iceni. Whether or not they built other ships could be debatable, but almost assured, you have a captured ship yard, you can produce ships, why not produce ships for your small diversion, it would only help to keep boschs project diverted from main attention by having more ships to do more stuff with.
Now this is starting to remind me why gtva didn't build another hades destroyer. Instead of building another hades, build a colossus and people think it may be rumor of building another hades. Why not build another iceni? I'm sure the specs for that ship were captured by the gtva. All information on that ship was obvious and known, except for what it's actual intention was. Didn't mean to go off topic, but talk about a good ship to reproduce that isn't costly colossus or must-acquire-and-integrate shivan technology hades. Iceni frigate class of ship proven, reliable, effective, even elusive...and blockade runner.
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well the iceni class of warships is great aginst other warships but when you add fighters and bommber into the equations then they are not so good. If iceni class warships would have some better aaaf defences then they would prove to be a super warship. they can clearely pose a grave threat to even destroyers.
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The Iceni isn't really a combat warship; it's a very special purpose warship (at least, appearances suggest IMO), designed to run and hide from enemy ships whilst serving a secondary function of providing C & C - and I doubt the former strength is much use to the GTVA when it's likely to be fighting a defensive war if the Shivans return.
It's unlikely, IMO, you could just bang on some AAAf or flak defenses without compromising the strengths of the ships, anyways.
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It'd give the gtva something else to venture into. I mean they already successfully replaced cruisers with corvetters, and as far as effective ship designs go, the iceni did what it was intended for perfectly. If the gtva ever need a ship like that, they know where to turn to.
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The shivans to get bosch back and help them improve the iceni???
Or the NTF?
Regardeless the iceni in mi opinion was a superb warship. And i do not believe adding on 2 more flack and 1 aaaf beam and maibe 2 aditional laser turrets on top of the ones it has will weaken the iceni that much.
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I dont know what you guys are talking about, but ive seen the iceni just rape other cruisers and stuff.
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Seen it rape fighters?
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Good point! The Iceni is the perfect example of a warship built for speed and firepower against other warships. A job well done by the Iceni. However in an era where fighter and bommbers can take out a warship faster then you can eat a hot dog aaaf defences is a must.
The Iceni can take on and defeat even destroyer class warships. We have already seen that corvettes do not pose such a serious threat to it or cruisers(the latter are as useless agains the iceni as an interceptor when tryng to take out a sathanas) !
With some modifications i believe that the Iceni would become a superb warship one wich could even the scale somewhat between the huge numbers of corvettes an cruisers that the shivans have and the GTVA !
Perhaps enlarging the Iceni by lets say 20% overall adding some aaaf defences and replace its reactors and powergrid with vasudan built ones which we all know are more advanced then terran ones would ensure that the Iceni keeps a high top speed and its huge fiorepower and the aaaf defences with ease.
IMO Iceni class frigates should be put into mass production as soon as posible. Its cheaper then a destroyer to buld they are faster and easier to maintain and resuply . They would make sure that the GTVa has a powerfull presence everywhere just in case its needed till the full fleet is rebuilt.
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I think the Iceni was an extremely expensive ship to construct. I mean, it uses a Terran reactor, is slightly bigger than a corvette, yet it can use BGreens. I think that this is one of the main reasons the GTVA were unable to rebuild it. Basing ideas on it would probably wield some crap thing which uses TerSlash beams or something, probably in trade off for AAA beams.
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As long as you get closer to your target when you use slashers then you'll get in a good hit with slashers, besides that, yes scrap them. It's probably one reason the gtva didn't develop slashing AAA beams :lol: No if they made an iceni it would be good, after that just saying that the deimos has slashers makes it suck would get you slapped around here. If the gtva made frigates they'd be useful, they'd have good antifighter defenses, and so on. I mean the iceni wasn't really meant to take on wings of fighters and bombers. It runs from them, in fact the iceni is somewhat of a cowardly ship, it was designed for secret projects, to withstand punishment (while dealing some), and more overlery to run. The iceni is always on the run in fs2.
Yes the iceni itself is an expensive ship, it's very fast, has very hardened subsystems, it's got sophisticated laboratory onboard, and great weaponry for taking on ships bigger than itself. I'm pretty sure if the gtva were to make a frigate that it'd be cheaper and not have a sophisticated laboratory on board, less hardened subsystems. They'd probably give it some moderate antifighter weaponry, maintain the highspeed, and maintain the anti-capship weaponry. The iceni equals a great strike ship, runner, and scout. The gtva wouldn't need to build many. But, just picture some strike missions where you wear the enemy down.
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About earlier posts in beginning of topic I think you don't know what Terran&Vasudan capital ships are for.
Fenris/Aten - total piece of junk, used only as anti-fighter cover and discraction.
Leviathan/Mentu - medium AF protection (four AAA cannons on Leviathan and three AAA+three flaks can hurt fighters, also Mentu has got pretty strong armor because of its large size and young age).
Aeolus - ultimate AF protection, but very expensive because of its two SGreens and replaced by Mentu cruisers.
Deimos - escort&patrol corvette, very good against fighters, support in destroyer extermination.
Sobek - assault version of Deimos, has got the same firepower as Terran counterpart, however it's concentrated entirely on top making it better in attack missions (and Sobek would own Deimos, you've had driffent results because you've probably FREDded those missions wrong, really Sobek should stay 4000m from Deimos and DON'T MOVE while Deimos should try to close to it, when Deimos closes to Sobek, it's got around 20% hull left while Sobek 60%, in manevuer fight Sobek should survive with 20%).
Iceni - assault warship of future, 300m longer than Deimos, but having AC firepower of Hatshepsut (note its AF weaponary isn't too strong). Its power is because of young age and lack of fighterbay. Iceni might've conviced GTVA command to specialised warships (just imagine two Icenis attacking Ravana, that'd be firepower of Colossus)
Hecate&Typhon - stays back from fighting sending fighters and moves into combat only when nessesery (also as I said before in another topic Command made one fatal error in desinging Hecate - it could have 300 fighters if it had no Anti-Cap weaponary making it real carrier, Hecate's beams decreased fighter capability seriously).
Orion - old destroyer modified into powerful Capship-Killer. Almost always with cruiser escort/fighter protection.
Hatshepsut - next generation of AC destroyers. Better armor and AF protection.
And Slash-type beams are very good. Altough they deal less damage than standard beams, they've got one large pros - they're very good in disarming warships. Basic rule is that Slash-type beams are for carriers (like Hecate) while standard beams for Capship Killers.
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They had the Sobek broadsiding. I had it fighting forward.
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The vasudans with their corvettes and cruisers like to have weaponry on the top side of their ships generally, it's like that with the aten, sobek sort of, and the mentu especially, they just have weak defenses on the bottom of their ships.
Pretty much if you had the top side facing a capship then you can see the mentu using it's weapons good, but fs ships besides fighters don't like to roll. If i flew a mentu i'd roll my cruiser so the top side would be facing my target. Idk too much about mentu weapon placement, except that everyone gripes about how most of the weapons are on the top of the ship.
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Perhaps enlarging the Iceni by lets say 20% overall adding some aaaf defences and replace its reactors and powergrid with vasudan built ones which we all know are more advanced then terran ones would ensure that the Iceni keeps a high top speed and its huge fiorepower and the aaaf defences with ease.
IMO Iceni class frigates should be put into mass production as soon as posible. Its cheaper then a destroyer to buld they are faster and easier to maintain and resuply . They would make sure that the GTVa has a powerfull presence everywhere just in case its needed till the full fleet is rebuilt.
I dont know about that "vasudan powergrid" deal because the Iceni already outruns any capital ship. Also the GTVA has no construction plans of the Iceni, so how could they reconstruct it themselfs? How do you know its cheaper then a destroyer? As far as I know, the Iceni was a very strongly well built Corvette with plenty of firepower.
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Frigate not corvette. The gtva has **** on the iceni provided from alpha ones scanning of it, and probably no doubt when the gtva retook the shipyard that bosch had for a while. After that the fs2 description of the iceni is pretty descriptive. Command knows a ton about that ship. In fact they know a little too much about this new class and mysterious ship...they got lots of intel on the damn thing.
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Well it can not be more expensive then a fully armed crewed destroyer with fighters weapons etc.
Even if its averall cost is about 70% that of a destroyer it is still worth the money. That thing can actualy take on destroyers and depending on the tipe of battle and fighter support it can actualy take out a destroyer then run like hell.
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Hmmm, yes. The overall size of the iceni compared to any destroyer in the game just screams less materials required, and in my book that's a money saver.
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But it uses a Terran powergrid but yet it can use BGreens. That's gotta be something. Plus, Command would have to probably rip out the whole inside because the interior was made for ETAK.
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No one said that bgreens were limited to zod power reactors. A terran reactor can do it. And yes a new iceni would be different, it definitely wouldn't be for the laboratory. Minus the sophisticated laboratory, and you got another price dropper.
I mean when you build something that uses energy, you of course need to figure out what type of power supply your going to have for how much energy needed for the things you're going to use, after that you can fine tune things. The iceni was a ship that was highly customized by bosch and it had a lot of pro's over the ships that already existed. It was like bosch building his own computer, it's a ****load better than what he could order from dell, compaq, or gateway, hp, and so on while the gtva keeps getting their hecates prebuilt from dell. Bosch needed a specialized ship, otherwise he'd probably be based on an hp orion that comes precustomized.
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I say the GTVA just make a new frig. For gameplay options. Not for realism options.
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Oh yeah and in a post capella era that would so much easier then bulding a frigate which you have the designs etc. and that has shown to be very very deadly and efective. Also you can make further savings when taking out the labs etc. There you hame more power towards the engines sensors or weapons. You could use the extra space to fit another reactor or amunition for more aaaf defences.
I say the Iceni is one of the best if not the best ship we have in the entire game. It's fast very fast it has a big Hp for its size, and has loads of firepower. In fact i can bet that an Iceni gooing head to head with a Hecate exclude the fighters can take out the Hecate before it even knows what hit them.
I mean the Iceni has like what 3 BG mounted in a forward firing ark??
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Oh yeah and in a post capella era that would so much easier then bulding a frigate which you have the designs etc. and that has shown to be very very deadly and efective. Also you can make further savings when taking out the labs etc. There you hame more power towards the engines sensors or weapons. You could use the extra space to fit another reactor or amunition for more aaaf defences.
I say the Iceni is one of the best if not the best ship we have in the entire game. It's fast very fast it has a big Hp for its size, and has loads of firepower. In fact i can bet that an Iceni gooing head to head with a Hecate exclude the fighters can take out the Hecate before it even knows what hit them.
I mean the Iceni has like what 3 BG mounted in a forward firing ark??
It only has 3 BGreens.
Besides, I think it's complete **** to use the Iceni in a campaign unless you got no more designs. Seriously. :doubt:
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Care to sustain that arguement?
Please why would the Iceni be a complete **** ? I for one can not see the reason for this statement of yours!
I mean you have shivan corvettes that can own pretty much any GTVA corvette and pose a serious threat to even destroyers. Keep in mind that we are talking about a corvette here. We have a shivan cruiser which can take out any cruiser and corvette it comes upon and even damage destroyers. Why would the Iceni be a waste or useless? I say the Iceni would be a must have fot thje GTVA!
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Uhhh the only shivan corvette is the Moloch and it really, really sucks. The only thing its got that the other corvettes don't is a fighterbay.
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Keep in mind the iceni has a substantial size difference to actually differentiate it from being a corvette.
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Look what makes the shivan warships so dangerous is theyr beam cannons ! I mean that god damn shivan cruiser can take out a destrpyer if its in the right position. What does in need 3 4 or maibe 5 shots from its LRed? And in an era where you have very few money to start rebuilding your destroyer fleet a frigatte would make that much sense. I mean the Iceni by ripping out all those things used for ETAK and the advanced sensory array and stuff like that could be a very powerfull ship by installing more point defences. And with its beam cannons it would make sure that even pirate or shivan corvettes or cruisers think twice before attaking such a mosnter.
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bah, no GTVA, no NTF... SOC!!!!!!!!!!!
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bah, no GTVA, no NTF... SOC!!!!!!!!!!!
PVN. Now and forever.
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Keep in mind the iceni has a substantial size difference to actually differentiate it from being a corvette.
$Name: NTF Iceni
$Short name: RCorvette
$Species: Terran
$POF file: corvette2r-01.pof
That explains what it is right there. Straight from the tables.
also whats labled a frigate is much smaller ship then the diemos, the hippocrates.
$Name: GTM Hippocrates
$Short name: TMedical
$Species: Terran
$POF file: frigate2t-01.pof
So with your whole "frigate" idea, you can label it as a frigate, as long as you relize that you can just as well classify it as a corvette.
<EDIT>
From mission 3:
Command, we're five clicks from that corvette! Those coordinates you gave us were bogus! We don't stand a chance of catching that ship!
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Well it's still much bigger than a corvette is. Plus it's from the tables, it could be something V forgot to change when making the game. After that the rest of the game calls it a corvette, so for every reference minus the tables, i think it's safe to say that it's a frigate.
As far as the medical frigate goes. Perhaps the hippocrates is a frigate based on it's size compared to other medical vessels. You can't really go off comparing combat frigates to medical frigates. fs has screwed up ship designations, based on information you can gather from transport ships, if you wanted to you could probably make a transport frigate and it'd be tons smaller than the iceni. In fs ships sizes are most likely screwed because of what class of ship they are, and role. Following this notion, you can have a medical frigate smaller than the iceni, after that there's probably medical corvettes or cruisers that V didn't need to mention in the game for massive evacuation convoy reasons...after that there's just plain old no more medical ships in the game, unless you start looking to the fsport.
In essence the hipocrates fills the frigate roll for medical vessels.
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Well the Iceni is not that huge when compared to the Deimos yet is has the abilaty to take out like what 2 Deimos at once?? The diference in size is there but just now i saw how much of a diference. And to me it does not soun all that huge. The Iceni could also be called a battle corvette from mi POV .
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There's no real reason for assuming that cruiser, corvette, etc classifications are given solely on the basis of size.......
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Well it's still much bigger than a corvette is. Plus it's from the tables, it could be something V forgot to change when making the game. After that the rest of the game calls it a corvette, so for every reference minus the tables, i think it's safe to say that it's a frigate.
Want more evidence?
From mission 3:
Command, we're five clicks from that corvette! Those coordinates you gave us were bogus! We don't stand a chance of catching that ship!
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Well it does seem that everione designates the Iceni as a corvette rather then a friggate but then again that is no ordinary corvette that is why i believe is hould be called a battle corvette or something like that!
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The iceni maybe well equiped but it was never intended to be in a major battle, it was a command ship. But your right, its no ordinary corvette.
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Maybe the Iceni should be classed in the same way as certain star wars ship i.e. NTF Blockade runner Iceni.
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Want more evidence?
From mission 3:
Command, we're five clicks from that corvette! Those coordinates you gave us were bogus! We don't stand a chance of catching that ship!
Want even more?
"The NTF command frigate..." Oh wait...
An excellent argument can be made that the GTVA pilots, not knowing what to call the Iceni (this was first contact with the ship) simply chose to call it a corvette as it was nowhere near destroyer-scale. Later the designation of frigate was applied to it by the people whose job it is to decide these things.
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well that is also and execelent arguement ! Also the iceni was not meant to go into a majo battle simply because of its advanced sensors and laboratories on board which made it custom for command and research. But then again when you strip out all those things that you do not need on it and put even more weaponry on it that would make it battle worthi by any standards. Also I believe that fast ships such as the Iceni Deimos and Sobek should be put into fast response strike forces !
Group the awesome aaaf firepower of the deimos with the massive power of the Iceni in terms of beam cannons and the ofensive abilaties of the Sobek and you have an exelent strike force which can move very fast from one point to the other and engage an enemy fleet or at least delay them long enough for the main fleet to arive and take them out. I believe that the Iceni combined with any GTVA destroyer and Deimos or sobek corvette or both of them would prove to be an awesome force .
The Iceni has the speed an manouverabilaty of a corvette yet ha the firepower of a destroyer (almost) which would be invaluable for the GTVA especialy when engaging shivan forces.
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Want more evidence?
From mission 3:
Command, we're five clicks from that corvette! Those coordinates you gave us were bogus! We don't stand a chance of catching that ship!
An excellent argument can be made that the GTVA pilots, not knowing what to call the Iceni (this was first contact with the ship) simply chose to call it a corvette as it was nowhere near destroyer-scale. Later the designation of frigate was applied to it by the people whose job it is to decide these things.
After seeing it more then 5 times by even the collossus before they call it a frigate i think that idea you have is wrong. They dont call it a frigate til the second act as far as I know.
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No, it's called a frigate in the mission briefing for the third mission (The Romans Blunder), if I recall correctly.
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well, even Snipes calls "cruiser" to a Ravana....
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And we all found somewhere new that V ****ed up :)
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Okay:
Using the Iceni is a stupid idea because, although it would be plausible, I don't like the idea because making a new command frigate/corvette would be a better choice for gameplay. The Iceni had a specific purpose in mind, ETAK, and using it again for a GTVA ship is IMO a bad idea as you would rather just start from scratch rather than go through all the trouble to get the blueprints and rip out the lab, give it a more manageable reactor, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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Who sais they do not already have the blueprints? And who sais they need to geive it a new reactor sistem the Iceni already has one a superb one at that. Also sisnce when is simply not building in it a research lab such a dificult thing? Surely not building something in it is cheaper anad easier then actualy building a lab inside of it.
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Who sais they do not already have the blueprints? And who sais they need to geive it a new reactor sistem the Iceni already has one a superb one at that. Also sisnce when is simply not building in it a research lab such a dificult thing? Surely not building something in it is cheaper anad easier then actualy building a lab inside of it.
The fundamental problem is, the Iceni is not a warship - it's a blockade runner, a C & C centre. It is not designed to defend a position, and outfitting it to do so requires making the assumption that you can somehow magic up extra power and capibilities without compromising other elements of the design. It's not as if you can just bung 20 gun turrets onto an aircraft carrier and still expect it to deploy planes, after all.
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Well you see, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can't be bothered to talk anymore. ::)
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I just dont get you guis! Why is it so dificult for you to admit that making an Iceni is posble and may be cheaper then the Original with all of its sophisticated sensors labs etc.
The Iceni already has turrets and beam cannons what would actualy change is they number and the fact that it would not have such advanced labs on it. I mean come on you are telling me that adding 1 or 2 aaf beams and a ouple of flacks maibe 2 or 3 of them as well as an aditional 2 or 3 laser turrets would be such an expensive endeavour and such a hard thing to do that it would make the whole ship useless.
You can say that all you want but we have proof that it can be done with relative ease and with not such overwhealming costs!
Leviathan anyone?? Or better yet Typhon or Orion? they were rotrofited werent they?
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The Typhon, Orion and Leviathan were probably prone to reactor failures.
And you see, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. [[still not bothered to talk]]
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Well someone is on thier high horse and does'nt want to know, blah blah blah snail what ever your going to say to me because i won't here it :P.
making the Iceni frigate into a GTVA warship and expiding its mass deployment would be a good idea, atleast that way this ship is used more often instead of being abandoned like the Hades destroyer. and as someone said itsa blockade runner making it a versitle weapon for critical strikes.
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Well it could be just that a strike warship or a fully fledged warship ! Whichever you want. But i believe that due to its 3 BG it would prove to be a very heavy hitter for its size and a superb adition to fleets bot as a strike warship and as a node defensive ship or blocade ship.
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I don't think the Iceni would ever be mass-produced. It's specialized as a blockade runner and command ship - there's no way it would be risked in main battle or even in risky strike operations. The vessel's just too expensive.
Note that a large part of its success in FS2 is due to good coordination and Bosch's tactical genius - he never gives the GTVA a solid target to hit.
I can see the GTVA applying its design principles to a new ship, however.
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You seem to forget that other then its etak and its laboratories as well as advanced sensors arrays that ship used pretty much tech that is also available to the GTVA! If you want to go and say the ship would be too expensive because of its tech then go take a look at the Deimos which is top of the line warship. I believe to be imposble to mount 4 beam cannons on a ship that size yet have that much hp aaaf defences and have such high top speed. The Iceni wouldnt be too expensive it would just be more expensive then a corvette but cheaper thena destroyer.
Also i believe with some minor tweaks to it it could be a very useful stryke warship or even a prelonged battle warship. Altough with those beams on it I can not imagine any battle would be that long.
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Well someone is on thier high horse and does'nt want to know, blah blah blah snail what ever your going to say to me because i won't here it :P.
I give up I can't be bothered to pursue the fact that Iceni was built specifically for ETAK, not a warship. :P
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The argument isn't about this one ended etak thing. It's shifted to the deployment of rather any type of frigate, besides etak, the iceni proved wells in other areas. The gtva wouldn't have to reduplicate the iceni's exact design, but rather make an actual different frigate would be useful. Everyone is talking about other areas that the iceni was awesome in besides etak. Yes the iceni was soley made for etak, but in the process it also excels in other areas that would make it an awesome ship to have for war purposes also.
The gtva would most likely consider a different design for a frigate, but then that certain frigate would be for a different purpose. Fast ship, blockade runner, and a few powerful beams to hold it's own against capships. The iceni has many areas that would be intelligent to incorporate into designs and upgrades. A frigate as a strike vessel seems to be the most useful thing if you're just going to reproduce the iceni design. If you make a new frigate, definitely retaining the elusiveness, speed, and firepower would be recommended to keeping such a ship effective in strikes. After that, i was thinking about the icenis lack of antifighter weaponry. In all of fs2, you're really close to the ship twice. When it breaks away from the asteroid, and when it runs the knossos blockade. Has it needed antifighter weaponry in any of those situations to keep alpha one off it's ass. No, it always keeps the jump drive hot and ready to jump anywhere at it's own convenience, as soon as it's far away from attack (such as close to a node in an insystem jump), it's fast speed can generally take the ship to a node faster than other capships can and it gets out of the system. After that the iceni got really lucky the colossus didn't blast it. With the colossus parallel to the node and the iceni passing by, i doubt the iceni's top speed would be able to traverse past the colossuses length to get to the node in time before it got destroyed.
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Well someone is on thier high horse and does'nt want to know, blah blah blah snail what ever your going to say to me because i won't here it :P.
I give up I can't be bothered to pursue the fact that Iceni was built specifically for ETAK, not a warship. :P
What makes you think ETAK was in any way a part of the Iceni? I beleive it was referred to a few times as a device, but there's nothing saying it couldn't just be plugged into any existing communications system.
The most important thing to remember about the Iceni is that it was not built by the NTF. It was built by the GTVA (admittedly under the direction ofAdmiral Bosch) at the Freedom Shipyards in Polaris. It was stolen by Bosch right at the beginning of the NTF rebellion, but it was paid for and approved by the alliance. Which means, in turn, that the GTVA have all the plans and technology to rebuild it if they so chose. Moreover, the GTVA obviously had a purpose in mind for the Iceni, and I think it's safe to assume that that purpose wasn't leading a rebellion (and while yes, that may have been Bosch's idea all along, he would have had to have presented a tactical situation in which the Iceni would be a useful warship for the GTVA in order to get the GTVA to fund it).
I think it's very likely that the GTVA would rebuild the Iceni. It's a proven, very dangerous, very high tech warship which was created to fill a specific niche in the GTVA arsenal that, since it was stolen and destroyed, we must assume remains unfilled.
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Good mention on the etak thing. Etak as huge box that does it all is unlikely. It could have been as simple as modifying the communications array to emit quantum pulses. Quite literally it probably was like that, etak itself is probably just information on how to create quantum pulses with known communications technology and software. Etak is better referred to as a method for creating quantum pulses. After that a laboratory for etak onboard still makes sense too (that's the top secret location where they study and work on etak to perfect, and possibly could have also been the room from where bosch sent messages to the shivans (only bosches immediate subbordinates knew anything if little knowledge about etak, after etak laboratory is usually referred to as being off limits with only bosch having and a couple of other people having admittance to it's information, so a restricted area on ship used to type up messages for the shivans is like a no brainer, after that the rest of the iceni crew can't decipher the quantum pulses coming from it's own ship (only bosches immediate subordinates had knowledge of etak)). Keep in mind the rephaim was able to send transmissions to gtva vessels, which suggests that etak worked through the iceni's existing communications array to send transmissions to shivan vessels, and even suggests that etak was not as crude as sending quantum pulses over dead space, but rather using a standard transmission, just making sure that shivans hear quantum pulses coming out of the transmission when they receive it on their end.
The way etak is described by freespace isn't really good. The iceni itself sending out quantum pulses into dead space sounds extremely crude. I mean it's proven that shivans can send gtva ships transmissions, that means ships can send shivan vessels transmissions too. It's just that the shivans possibly don't understand the words coming out of your mouth, as much as we don't understand quantum pulses. You don't have to send quantum pulses over space itself, you just need to send a standard transmission to a shivan vessel, and make sure that what they hear coming out of the message is quantum pulses. Judging by a species that lives in a vacuum they don't hear sound, they probably don't have ears, also why speaking in quantum pulses is necessary when in space for the shivans. So capturing a shivan communications array was probably vital for etak. Humans have some type of a transceiver with a speaker and a microphone (at it's most basic thinking) so you can receive messages hear them, and talk back. So what the hell is the shivans version of a boombox speaker to them? Let alone how a shivan computer interprets data transmissions and quantum pulse transmissions. In order for etak to work, is understanding of how shivans receive quantum pulses on the other end of a message being sent to their ship is like a no brainer for necessity, so that means scientists at gti were studying a shivan communications array.
In essence, etak is probably software which is an in the works english to shivan translation matrix, and then the other half of etak (if not the whole) is sending the correct kind of transmission that a shivan will "hear" coming loud and clear from the inship quantum pulse speaker (of course a shivan speaker probably doesn't output sound, but rather only quantum pulses).
Shivans can receive transmissions from gtva ships and send them back, it's whether or not you're sending a standard transmission that comes out as quantum pulses on the other end that matters.
Keep in mind quantum pulses are to shivans as sound waves are to humans (shivans live in space with no atmosphere, that means no sound, don't try to think that shivans have ears that recieve sound waves, or else they'd most likely decipher english during the great war, and have just plain old blown up the iceni even when the iceni is talking to them..shivans do find communication interesting i just doubt they can interpret sound as language as we do since they live in a vacuum), like i said, scientists probably had in no doubt to study a shivan communications array and computer systems.
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Forgot about the fact that Bosch stole a GTVA vessel and made it his comand and control center. Also that raises an interesting question or rather a couple of them:
Since the Iceni has such formidable AC weaponry yet very few poin defence turrets what was the role it was suposed to fill within the GTVA arsenal?
Also since the Iceni was the first of its kind could we asume it was more of a prototipe built for trials work out the bugs and see where the ship needs improvement and then start mass production of the Iceni class ??
Mi take on this is that the Iceni was built with 90% of the general desingn specs of the future coming frigate class of warships wich would of left only about 10 % of its design to be modified and altered for better usage ! One are where i believe the Iceni mass produced version would of suffered modifications would of been in its poin defence sistems which are so few and weak in number. I believe the GTVA wanted indeed to keep its high speed strong hull and masive ac firepower but with an average aaaf defence on it at best since we can clearely see the Iceni would start to run out of space for any seriously powerfull aaaf weaponry on it.
Perhaps a few more point defence turrets 5 or 6 of them added on for aditional fighter supresion . some flack and 2 aaaf beams.
Edit: Well to me it seems rather clear that the Iceni was designed to work toghether with the Deimos class corvette another formidable warship most natably for its overwhealming aaaf firepower. That thing can chew up and spit out bommbers and fighters faster then you can get a lock on them.
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Well someone is on thier high horse and does'nt want to know, blah blah blah snail what ever your going to say to me because i won't here it :P.
I give up I can't be bothered to pursue the fact that Iceni was built specifically for ETAK, not a warship. :P
What makes you think ETAK was in any way a part of the Iceni? I beleive it was referred to a few times as a device, but there's nothing saying it couldn't just be plugged into any existing communications system.
The most important thing to remember about the Iceni is that it was not built by the NTF. It was built by the GTVA (admittedly under the direction ofAdmiral Bosch) at the Freedom Shipyards in Polaris. It was stolen by Bosch right at the beginning of the NTF rebellion, but it was paid for and approved by the alliance. Which means, in turn, that the GTVA have all the plans and technology to rebuild it if they so chose. Moreover, the GTVA obviously had a purpose in mind for the Iceni, and I think it's safe to assume that that purpose wasn't leading a rebellion (and while yes, that may have been Bosch's idea all along, he would have had to have presented a tactical situation in which the Iceni would be a useful warship for the GTVA in order to get the GTVA to fund it).
I think it's very likely that the GTVA would rebuild the Iceni. It's a proven, very dangerous, very high tech warship which was created to fill a specific niche in the GTVA arsenal that, since it was stolen and destroyed, we must assume remains unfilled.
Nitpick;
"The Iceni is the NTF command frigate, built under Admiral Bosch's direction at the Freedom shipyards in Polaris, captured by the Neo-Terran Front at the start of their rebellion."
To me that implies the Iceni was build at the the Freedom shipyards, and that the shipyards were captured by the NTF; not that the Iceni was built and then captured. There's no intimation that the ship was funded for, or planned by the GTVA - I'd say the absence of any information indicating it's anything other than Boschs' personal design implies it's a purely NTF design (as does the ability to hide it in a fake asteroid).
I would note that the absence of significant AAAf beams and Flak turrets on the Iceni indicates you'd need significant changes to support proper AAAf weaponry to engage in active combat (rather than the hide-and-run tactics intended to burst through blockades which the ship is clearly designed for - armour to absorb the attacks before it can jump out, and beams to distress enemy capships in the same time period); I'm pretty sure that if you upgraded it to the level where it'd be an effective warship for engaging targets like the Shivans, you'd be turning it into little more than a slightly bigger Deimos.
In any case, re-reading the command briefs - I don't think I can find a single instance where the Iceni is described as engaging GTVA forces - only evading or slipping past them. It may be effective as a command ship (albeit, better than a Hecate?), but it shows very little indication of being a significant front-line warship. So why rebuild a Ferrari to run as a 4x4 ATV when you can just make a new Landrover?
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To me this seems like a completely pointless discussion. Carry on. Ignore me.
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The NTF Iceni was built specifically under the direction of Adimral Bosch at Polaris, the shipyard was captured at the start of the NTF Rebellion.
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/NTF_Iceni (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/NTF_Iceni) - i don't need to say anymore on the Iceni.
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Hey snail stopped flaming :) That's because we proved him wrong :nod:
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on ETAK: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/ETAK (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/ETAK).
but i still vote Zod :P
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Well someone is on thier high horse and does'nt want to know, blah blah blah snail what ever your going to say to me because i won't here it :P.
I give up I can't be bothered to pursue the fact that Iceni was built specifically for ETAK, not a warship. :P
What makes you think ETAK was in any way a part of the Iceni? I beleive it was referred to a few times as a device, but there's nothing saying it couldn't just be plugged into any existing communications system.
The most important thing to remember about the Iceni is that it was not built by the NTF. It was built by the GTVA (admittedly under the direction ofAdmiral Bosch) at the Freedom Shipyards in Polaris. It was stolen by Bosch right at the beginning of the NTF rebellion, but it was paid for and approved by the alliance. Which means, in turn, that the GTVA have all the plans and technology to rebuild it if they so chose. Moreover, the GTVA obviously had a purpose in mind for the Iceni, and I think it's safe to assume that that purpose wasn't leading a rebellion (and while yes, that may have been Bosch's idea all along, he would have had to have presented a tactical situation in which the Iceni would be a useful warship for the GTVA in order to get the GTVA to fund it).
I think it's very likely that the GTVA would rebuild the Iceni. It's a proven, very dangerous, very high tech warship which was created to fill a specific niche in the GTVA arsenal that, since it was stolen and destroyed, we must assume remains unfilled.
Nitpick;
"The Iceni is the NTF command frigate, built under Admiral Bosch's direction at the Freedom shipyards in Polaris, captured by the Neo-Terran Front at the start of their rebellion."
To me that implies the Iceni was build at the the Freedom shipyards, and that the shipyards were captured by the NTF; not that the Iceni was built and then captured. There's no intimation that the ship was funded for, or planned by the GTVA - I'd say the absence of any information indicating it's anything other than Boschs' personal design implies it's a purely NTF design (as does the ability to hide it in a fake asteroid).
I would note that the absence of significant AAAf beams and Flak turrets on the Iceni indicates you'd need significant changes to support proper AAAf weaponry to engage in active combat (rather than the hide-and-run tactics intended to burst through blockades which the ship is clearly designed for - armour to absorb the attacks before it can jump out, and beams to distress enemy capships in the same time period); I'm pretty sure that if you upgraded it to the level where it'd be an effective warship for engaging targets like the Shivans, you'd be turning it into little more than a slightly bigger Deimos.
In any case, re-reading the command briefs - I don't think I can find a single instance where the Iceni is described as engaging GTVA forces - only evading or slipping past them. It may be effective as a command ship (albeit, better than a Hecate?), but it shows very little indication of being a significant front-line warship. So why rebuild a Ferrari to run as a 4x4 ATV when you can just make a new Landrover?
I can't accept that the GTVA would allow a civillian shipyard to build a 1 kilometre long warship with enough firepower to blow corvettes and destroyers out of the sky for anyone other than themselves, and I'm even more sceptical that anyone, even the local fleet admiral, would be able to keep it hidden so that they wouldn't know about it. They may, may have been able to build the spaceframe without requiring GTVA approval, but they'd probably not be able to obtain the (presumably) military spec reactors, and they'd certainly not be able to get the (definitely) military spec beam weapons. Bosch might have been able to approve the requests or whatever, but he'd not be able to personally afford them - As a modern example, wikipedia tells me that an Arleigh Burke class destroyer (the closest thing I could find to what the Iceni is supposed to be) costs 800 million dollars, not including R+D (the new destroyers the yanks are building is costing 3 billion to cover R+D). There's simply nobody around except a government who can afford to buy (and crew) a warship, and I see no reason as to why that'd change in FS times. He'd need to requisition the alliance for money, plus there are oversight committees, inspections, random visits, repairs for other local ships, and the problem of keeping the workers (and the contractors, and the suppliers) all quiet. Inevitably, there'd be a leak.
In a modern context, it'd be like a fleet admiral building a nuclear submarine without the defence minister knowing about it (or, if you wangt to put a different spin on it, the equivalent of a defence contractor beinghired to produce a nuclear submarine for a private buyer and the government not knowing about it). Just couldn't be done. And you can be dead certain that when the GTVA did find out Bosch had been building a secret ship, then they'd A) want the plans for it and B) want to know what it was for (before they demoted Bosch back to ensign and stuck him in a cell for twenty years, of course). It's far, far simpler to just assume that the Freedom Shipyards were a military operation, servicing the GTVA (much like Northrop Grumman or General Dynamics today) and that the GTVA were financing the ship for a specific purpose. Now, I'm not saying that Bosch didn't have running blockades in mind when he proposed it, but the GTVA would not need a ship to do that, so he must have packaged it as something else for the sake of the funding and defence commitees, who must have seen a need for it.
Personally, I think the Iceni might have been pitched as a semi replacement for the Orions. The Terrans already had the Hecates replacing the Orions in terms of the role of fighter carrier, but it had nothing that really maintined the Orion's raw hitting power. While the Iceni lacks the three slash beams of the Orion, it does still have the three BGreens. I can see a solid tactical relationship forming between an Iceni and a Hecate - both jump into a system, the Hecate holds the node while the Iceni chases down any large ships in the System. The hecate launches fighters, which jump through subspace to protect the Iceni (thereby freeing up the Iceni from needing a fighterbay of its own, and releiving the Iceni of the primary need for Slash beams, which is taking out enemy turrets), while the Iceni serves as the raw hitting power to take down enemy ships. Moreover, the hecate is armed enough that it can cover its own arse if attacked, but only long enough for its companion Iceni to jump in and take out the attacker from behind.
It's a solid tactical relationship that would still make sense after the NTF rebellion. Admittedly, it's plan better suited to Demons than Ravanas (I don't have access to FS2 to test it, but I'd say a ravana could probably defeat a lone Iceni pretty handily), but it's still not a bad setup.
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Agreed. building such a powerfull warship would of been imposible without the GTVA knowing about it especialy since such a monster would of taken a lot of time to buil as it is trhe first of its kind. So you design issues to sort out research to be done etc. before you even get to the main framework.
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You did not prove me wrong. I just can't be bothered to continue, it's a waste of my time so there, I'll just go and say the Iceni could be modified to fit GTVA needs. Like they did in Derelict. But whatever. You know. Yeah. :blah:
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Keep in mind that the Iceni has NTF connotations. Anything built that resembles it likely will have a disadvantage when being chosen for a new ship class.
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Like the German military launching the Bismark II
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I can't accept that the GTVA would allow a civillian shipyard to build a 1 kilometre long warship with enough firepower to blow corvettes and destroyers out of the sky for anyone other than themselves, and I'm even more sceptical that anyone, even the local fleet admiral, would be able to keep it hidden so that they wouldn't know about it. They may, may have been able to build the spaceframe without requiring GTVA approval, but they'd probably not be able to obtain the (presumably) military spec reactors, and they'd certainly not be able to get the (definitely) military spec beam weapons. Bosch might have been able to approve the requests or whatever, but he'd not be able to personally afford them - As a modern example, wikipedia tells me that an Arleigh Burke class destroyer (the closest thing I could find to what the Iceni is supposed to be) costs 800 million dollars, not including R+D (the new destroyers the yanks are building is costing 3 billion to cover R+D). There's simply nobody around except a government who can afford to buy (and crew) a warship, and I see no reason as to why that'd change in FS times. He'd need to requisition the alliance for money, plus there are oversight committees, inspections, random visits, repairs for other local ships, and the problem of keeping the workers (and the contractors, and the suppliers) all quiet. Inevitably, there'd be a leak.
In a modern context, it'd be like a fleet admiral building a nuclear submarine without the defence minister knowing about it (or, if you wangt to put a different spin on it, the equivalent of a defence contractor beinghired to produce a nuclear submarine for a private buyer and the government not knowing about it). Just couldn't be done. And you can be dead certain that when the GTVA did find out Bosch had been building a secret ship, then they'd A) want the plans for it and B) want to know what it was for (before they demoted Bosch back to ensign and stuck him in a cell for twenty years, of course). It's far, far simpler to just assume that the Freedom Shipyards were a military operation, servicing the GTVA (much like Northrop Grumman or General Dynamics today) and that the GTVA were financing the ship for a specific purpose. Now, I'm not saying that Bosch didn't have running blockades in mind when he proposed it, but the GTVA would not need a ship to do that, so he must have packaged it as something else for the sake of the funding and defence commitees, who must have seen a need for it.
Personally, I think the Iceni might have been pitched as a semi replacement for the Orions. The Terrans already had the Hecates replacing the Orions in terms of the role of fighter carrier, but it had nothing that really maintined the Orion's raw hitting power. While the Iceni lacks the three slash beams of the Orion, it does still have the three BGreens. I can see a solid tactical relationship forming between an Iceni and a Hecate - both jump into a system, the Hecate holds the node while the Iceni chases down any large ships in the System. The hecate launches fighters, which jump through subspace to protect the Iceni (thereby freeing up the Iceni from needing a fighterbay of its own, and releiving the Iceni of the primary need for Slash beams, which is taking out enemy turrets), while the Iceni serves as the raw hitting power to take down enemy ships. Moreover, the hecate is armed enough that it can cover its own arse if attacked, but only long enough for its companion Iceni to jump in and take out the attacker from behind.
It's a solid tactical relationship that would still make sense after the NTF rebellion. Admittedly, it's plan better suited to Demons than Ravanas (I don't have access to FS2 to test it, but I'd say a ravana could probably defeat a lone Iceni pretty handily), but it's still not a bad setup.
I don't understand; you seem to have missed my point.
What makes you think that Freedom Shipyards was a civillian shipyard, anyways? And what makes you think it was building the Iceni before the rebellion started and the shipyard was captured (bearing in mind it's in Polaris, the first system to defect to the NTF)?
To be honest, I see a 'pack' of Deimos being the replacement for the Orion in the way that you're talking about the Iceni; possibly with reconfigured variants sacrificing some other weapons for larger beams, but not necessarily.
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Well the bottom line about the Iceni as I see it anywai is that it is a very deadly and powerfull ship which in one form or another should be incorporated into the GTVA arsenal.
However because it was mainly used as a blocade runner it would not do so well on its own in a prelonged battle.
Also this leads me to the conclusion that if a variuont of the Iceni would be manufactured and brought into service with the GTVA it would have to have much more aaaf defences then the current variant to stand a chance in active combat or it would be heavely dependant on fighter protection and thus would be limited in its mission parameters which would reduce its usefulness.
So basicly what we need is a ship with the firepower of the Iceni the aaaf defences of a corvette not a deimos since that would be overkill maibe the aaaf defences of a sobek would be good unless that is overkill also, yet still maintain the speed and hp of the original.
Now this would be one seriously powerfull ship. However if the GTVA ever decided to manufacture such a variant it would most definetly use the useless slasher tiype beams and compromise the entire design.
I sugets the GTVA aproach what is left of the NTF or their NTF prisoners asuming they have poeple who were involved in the making of the Iceni, to design such a ship or rather its variant. Because it is clear that GTVA design teams are idiots.
(Listen to the brag about the Hecate with all of its weapons beeing more powerfull the an Orion. Man oh man i would of loved to see the look on thei faces when Hecate class destroyer were cripled and even destroyed by shivan corvetes or cruisers or frigates :P )
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Uh, the Hecate's a carrier, really.
Command pulls the Aquitaine out every time there's an attack, even by something as small as a Moloch.
The only other Hecate we see, the Phoenicia, is used solely as a delaying force to slow down the Sathanas. At that it fails.
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how'd this thread turn into a fight about the Iceni ?
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Well the bottom line about the Iceni as I see it anywai is that it is a very deadly and powerfull ship which in one form or another should be incorporated into the GTVA arsenal.
However because it was mainly used as a blocade runner it would not do so well on its own in a prelonged battle.
Also this leads me to the conclusion that if a variuont of the Iceni would be manufactured and brought into service with the GTVA it would have to have much more aaaf defences then the current variant to stand a chance in active combat or it would be heavely dependant on fighter protection and thus would be limited in its mission parameters which would reduce its usefulness.
So basicly what we need is a ship with the firepower of the Iceni the aaaf defences of a corvette not a deimos since that would be overkill maibe the aaaf defences of a sobek would be good unless that is overkill also, yet still maintain the speed and hp of the original.
Now this would be one seriously powerfull ship. However if the GTVA ever decided to manufacture such a variant it would most definetly use the useless slasher tiype beams and compromise the entire design.
So what you need, then, is a new ship design. Otherwise it's just as daft as saying 'well, a Deimos with 50 fighters in a launch bay, BFGreens and twice the armour would be cool, so why not make one of those?'
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That's what I've been saying.
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That's what I've been saying.
Indeed, but when hitting a nail into a particularly dense surface you sometimes need to give it a few extra hard whacks.
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Halfway throgh page 2. Waste of time to read the rest.
Im surprized there are so many NTF supporters. I expected that HLP was a more vasudan friendly community, with a few NTF traitors.
The GTVA treaty saved our ASSES and worked like a charm. Well, after the SOC killed off all opposition, under the radar.
Terrans OWE Vasudans our lives as a species; likewise with Vasudans. We should be trusting eachother by now. God, FFS, we held off the Great Destroyers, by watching eachothers back.
Vasudans are Honorable. Terrans, not so honorable. Why do you hate them so much? So what if they killed your grandpa, we killed theirs.
And lofl, there is no proof of a vasudan female looking any diff then a male. So you might be thinking a male vasudan is hot, and mistake it for a female, rofl.
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Halfway throgh page 2. Waste of time to read the rest.
Im surprized there are so many NTF supporters. I expected that HLP was a more vasudan friendly community, with a few NTF traitors.
The GTVA treaty saved our ASSES and worked like a charm. Well, after the SOC killed off all opposition, under the radar.
Terrans OWE Vasudans our lives as a species; likewise with Vasudans. We should be trusting eachother by now. God, FFS, we held off the Great Destroyers, by watching eachothers back.
Vasudans are Honorable. Terrans, not so honorable. Why do you hate them so much? So what if they killed your grandpa, we killed theirs.
And lofl, there is no proof of a vasudan female looking any diff then a male. So you might be thinking a male vasudan is hot, and mistake it for a female, rofl.
Uh Charismatic, Vasudans don't worship the Lord God, so in real life I guarantee that you would not be a Vasudan supporter but instead a NTF defectee since you have espoused your religous views previously on the board. Vasudans are unbelievers and heretics as far as your world view is concerned.
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Well if the only way to make use the Iceni design is to make a ship based heavyli on its design specs then so be it. What ever works best! It is a ship too powerfull and too usefull for the GTVA to be ignored. Bosch really exployted a gap in the GTVA arsenal since the GTVA does not have anything fast enough or powerfull enough short of a destroyer with which to take it out. Such a ship I believe would prove very usefull even against the shivans ! It would be sort of a fast response heaby hitter of the fleet quikly deployed where its needed hit the enemy hard or even destroy some of its ships then head back out .
This way it could cause not only significat damage but it could even prove usefull to the fleet in large battles due to its enourmous firepower with fighter cover beeing provided by fighters from a destroyer.
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Well if the only way to make use the Iceni design is to make a ship based heavyli on its design specs then so be it. What ever works best! It is a ship too powerfull and too usefull for the GTVA to be ignored. Bosch really exployted a gap in the GTVA arsenal since the GTVA does not have anything fast enough or powerfull enough short of a destroyer with which to take it out. Such a ship I believe would prove very usefull even against the shivans ! It would be sort of a fast response heaby hitter of the fleet quikly deployed where its needed hit the enemy hard or even destroy some of its ships then head back out .
This way it could cause not only significat damage but it could even prove usefull to the fleet in large battles due to its enourmous firepower with fighter cover beeing provided by fighters from a destroyer.
The Iceni design specs are for a C & C ship designed to covertly evade GTVA fleets and run blockades into contested systems - not to capture them but to reach Shivan territory and dispatch a message using a communications system which the ship may or may not have also been expressly designed to use. If you believe the response to a Shivan invasion ala FS2 is to, ummm, run Shivan node blockades and then sit around for a bit in the middle of enemy territory, then the Iceni is the right design for you.
AS far as enormous firepower; it doesn't have it. It's beam weaponry is offset by a critical lack of AAAf armament; any effectiveness against something like a destroyer (because, after all, any other kind of ship is already as capably handled by the corvette classes and bombers) is negated entirely by it getting shredded to pieces by Shivan bombers. And yes, you can provide fighter cover; but then it because a bit, fat, liability requiring nursemaiding by a destroyer. And the speed of the Iceni - speed being a pointless concept for 'normal' warship designs because they can jump (useful in a blockade runner, of course, because you're avoiding attack at all costs) - is then completely negated by the handicap of waiting on that destroyer.
So it's not a particularly heavy hitter, it's not really that well suited to engage any sort of enemy ship not as well (if not better) handled by the Deimos/Sobek, it's speed is negated by the reliance on fighter cover, and the only situation it can be deployed in is one which is massively unlikely (GTVA counterattack into Shivan held space). Oh, and it's a tactical liability because it's relatively useless for the sort of fighting the GTVA has to do against the Shivans - defensive, and covering evacuation.
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Aldo I said based on the Iceni design specs not identical. Sure that ship could be made more usefull that is why I beliee some redesign issues should be brought about it. Hell it doesnt have to identical to the iceni just use the general guidelines of heavy forvard firepower high speed but add decent aaaf weaponry. you can make it look like a notebook for al i care just make it work. and i believe that a future ship class based on the iceni general guidelines staed above would not only be posible but even usefull. as for fighter cover we see even corvettes operate agains other warships with fighter cover.
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Aldo I said based on the Iceni design specs not identical. Sure that ship could be made more usefull that is why I beliee some redesign issues should be brought about it. Hell it doesnt have to identical to the iceni just use the general guidelines of heavy forvard firepower high speed but add decent aaaf weaponry. you can make it look like a notebook for al i care just make it work. and i believe that a future ship class based on the iceni general guidelines staed above would not only be posible but even usefull. as for fighter cover we see even corvettes operate agains other warships with fighter cover.
So in other words, you don't actually want to use the Iceni or the Iceni design, but create an entirely new ship design based on a broad set of parameters which include a few of the Icenis perceived advantages. Which was exactly my bloody point.
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Well that is because i just realised that such a ship usefull as it may be it would have serious problems against bommbers especialy shivan bommbers.
but i do believe that a compact sleek small body like the one the iceni has or deimos or sobek for that matter would be desired since well it would make it harder to hit in any serious way by slasher beams ! Also there would be a smaller ship are for the aaaf defences to protect and thus make them much more efective and harder to everrun!
Mi general opinion was that maybe the Iceni could be made more usefull by simply adding a few more aaaf weanpry on it. But that view has started to change since well we have the example of the Orion a very capable ship but one wich is desperatly in need of more aaaf weaponry on it. No matter how much you improve the existing design there will always be a major drawback on it .
So if you can not improve the Original reimagine the original with specific design specs in mind ! So basicly what you said ! But I believe that they will eventualy come up with a body design somewhat similar to either the Iceni or a more powerfull Deimos.
So a longer larger more powerfull version of the deimos actualy. Since the Deimos has a very good speed to it and loads of aaaf weaponry !
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Halfway throgh page 2. Waste of time to read the rest.
Im surprized there are so many NTF supporters. I expected that HLP was a more vasudan friendly community, with a few NTF traitors.
The GTVA treaty saved our ASSES and worked like a charm. Well, after the SOC killed off all opposition, under the radar.
Terrans OWE Vasudans our lives as a species; likewise with Vasudans. We should be trusting eachother by now. God, FFS, we held off the Great Destroyers, by watching eachothers back.
Vasudans are Honorable. Terrans, not so honorable. Why do you hate them so much? So what if they killed your grandpa, we killed theirs.
And lofl, there is no proof of a vasudan female looking any diff then a male. So you might be thinking a male vasudan is hot, and mistake it for a female, rofl.
Uh Charismatic, Vasudans don't worship the Lord God, so in real life I guarantee that you would not be a Vasudan supporter but instead a NTF defectee since you have espoused your religous views previously on the board. Vasudans are unbelievers and heretics as far as your world view is concerned.
Lol. Anyways, i know what i did. I hold true to my beleifs. IF in real life, they would be unbeleivers; not heretics tho. And, no offence, but you do not know my world view. I would not be a NTF member. I am GTVA all the way. I recently restarted FS1 and in my 2nd mission i was likw 'wtf' when i saw 'vasudans' in red, as the enemy. Lol. Was weird... now i gota hate the vasudans again.
I believe ppl are entitled to their beleives and opinions and religons; tho they may be wrong or conflict with my beleifs and opinions. Alot of ppl dont beleive in my God, so whats another vasudan?
>)
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Hmmmm, yeah. The iceni really is just a more capship weaponry potent and faster corvette in reality. Perhaps getting rid of stuff like slashers and some bgreens replacement along with 5ms faster speed for the deimos would make the deimos on par with the iceni. In that case the deimos would then be more powerful than the iceni. The deimos would be nicer if it didn't have those slashers, unless your piloting the deimos in which making good shots with slashers isn't hard because you're piloting (there's a pilotable deimos mission laying around the hlp somewhere i played a while a go). Just giving the deimos non-slashers of any kind would be a very nice upgrade.
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Hmmmm, yeah. The iceni really is just a more capship weaponry potent and faster corvette in reality. Perhaps getting rid of stuff like slashers and some bgreens replacement along with 5ms faster speed for the deimos would make the deimos on par with the iceni. In that case the deimos would then be more powerful than the iceni. The deimos would be nicer if it didn't have those slashers, unless your piloting the deimos in which making good shots with slashers isn't hard because you're piloting (there's a pilotable deimos mission laying around the hlp somewhere i played a while a go). Just giving the deimos non-slashers of any kind would be a very nice upgrade.
Let's just go give the Fenris BFGreens on every single turret and make it 500m/s faster.
I'm being an ass, and I'm sorry. :)
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Hmmmm, yeah. The iceni really is just a more capship weaponry potent and faster corvette in reality. Perhaps getting rid of stuff like slashers and some bgreens replacement along with 5ms faster speed for the deimos would make the deimos on par with the iceni. In that case the deimos would then be more powerful than the iceni. The deimos would be nicer if it didn't have those slashers, unless your piloting the deimos in which making good shots with slashers isn't hard because you're piloting (there's a pilotable deimos mission laying around the hlp somewhere i played a while a go). Just giving the deimos non-slashers of any kind would be a very nice upgrade.
Let's just go give the Fenris BFGreens on every single turret and make it 500m/s faster.
I'm being an ass, and I'm sorry. :)
Is that.. the infamous Fenris ship of D00M?!
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GTC Ubermorter!
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I don't understand; you seem to have missed my point.
What makes you think that Freedom Shipyards was a civillian shipyard, anyways? And what makes you think it was building the Iceni before the rebellion started and the shipyard was captured (bearing in mind it's in Polaris, the first system to defect to the NTF)?
I think Freedom was a military ship yard, and I doubt the Iceni could have been built after the beginnings of the rebellion because it would have taken too long and cost too much for a rebellion that lasted on 18 months and probably didn't have the money to both build and design (from scratch) an entirely new class of warship. Modern day military equipment (warships, subs, planes etc.) take decades to design - admittedly, a lot of that could be stripped down, by eliminating testing, duplication of effort by conflicting companies etc. etc. but 18 months to build and design a 1 kilometer long warship using technology at least as advanced as that of the most modern ships in the terran fleet? And then fuinding it? R&D alone waould cost the equivalent of hundreds of millions of dollars - it's not something a rebellion can afford. Do you see the Tamul Tigers designing and constructing new classes of modern day warships in Sri Lanka? Or the Maoists in Nepal fielding next gen assault rifles? **** no. They're using stolen boats and AK47s. And yes, these are rebellions in less prosperous nations, but even so, the parallels are there I think.
To me, the only situation that makes sense in terms of the available timeframe and probably the available funds is for Bosch to convince the GTVA to fund and design the Iceni, and then pinch it the first chance he got.
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I don't understand; you seem to have missed my point.
What makes you think that Freedom Shipyards was a civillian shipyard, anyways? And what makes you think it was building the Iceni before the rebellion started and the shipyard was captured (bearing in mind it's in Polaris, the first system to defect to the NTF)?
I think Freedom was a military ship yard, and I doubt the Iceni could have been built after the beginnings of the rebellion because it would have taken too long and cost too much for a rebellion that lasted on 18 months and probably didn't have the money to both build and design (from scratch) an entirely new class of warship. Modern day military equipment (warships, subs, planes etc.) take decades to design - admittedly, a lot of that could be stripped down, by eliminating testing, duplication of effort by conflicting companies etc. etc. but 18 months to build and design a 1 kilometer long warship using technology at least as advanced as that of the most modern ships in the terran fleet? And then fuinding it? R&D alone waould cost the equivalent of hundreds of millions of dollars - it's not something a rebellion can afford. Do you see the Tamul Tigers designing and constructing new classes of modern day warships in Sri Lanka? Or the Maoists in Nepal fielding next gen assault rifles? **** no. They're using stolen boats and AK47s. And yes, these are rebellions in less prosperous nations, but even so, the parallels are there I think.
To me, the only situation that makes sense in terms of the available timeframe and probably the available funds is for Bosch to convince the GTVA to fund and design the Iceni, and then pinch it the first chance he got.
Why would they have to design it after the shipyard was captured. That could - and surely would have - be done before the rebellion took place, especially as it was solely a cover for the eventual deployment of the Iceni. So the 18 month figure (which IMO is likely as Polaris was first to fall) is solely for building the ship and, if it's using existing techniques, there shouldn't be a huge amount of research needed. Plus, I don't see the Iceni as being more advanced than, ooh, a Deimos. It's just differently specialised.
Plus, the likes of the Tamil Tigers, etc, aren't valid examples - these groups don't have anywhere near equivalent resources to the NTF; they don't have construction facilities, for example. Nor are they formed from defectors (IIRC) of regular armed forces, not to mention that the NTF would have likely gained ship design intel (if such a thing was not already available for the fleet's commanding admiral) from capturing said shipyards so they do not need to reverse-engineer to build new warships.
Remember, the NTF took Polaris - and then rapidly several other systems. Their resource base is completely incomparable to a domestic insurgency or guerilla war and something more akin to Texas declaring independence and being allied with by Florida & New Mexico.
Also, it's hard for me to see why the GTVA would want a ship like the Iceni.
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They would of gained shi design intel about existing ship classes and designs specs but not about the Iceni.
And asuming they already had the design specs on hand when they captured the shipyards that would mean that those designs had to have come from somewhere and i do not believe that you can actualy design work out all the details of a new ship class especialy one of such power without anyone from the outside knowing about it. It is simply imposible.
Also if we are to look at the diferent designs in use by the GTVA for example the Deimos class which is a ship closest to the Iceni in lenght and firepower for its size (please note that i'm not saing they are equal but rather the closes thing I have to compare with) it must of taken at leash a few years to develop and work out all the bugs and design problems. And this was done in the alocated timeslcae because the GTVA did not have anby war gooing on which would put a strain on its available resources and economy. You will say that this was largely not the case of the NTF since maibe they do not even get paid but they sure as hell have to eath repair theyr ships from damage rearm them etc. and that would reduce the available resources avaiolable to bosch in a considerable way. Not to mention that bosch would of had to suply his scientists working on the ETAK device with materials etc.
Such a ship could of only been posible if the GTVA already ordered a firts of its class Iceni but the diference was that intead of what they intented tohave Bosch made his own alterations to the design of the ship probably when it was about half way done in order to keep GTVA inpections from noticing anything and perhaps right before he started the rebelion. The rest would of been an easy task to complete .
You will say that building such a ship in such a large period of time is unreal but then again this is the first and only ship of its class. Also note that the ship might of been avaialbe a lot sooner if Bosch would of completed his ETAK device sooner. So basicly the ship builders would of waited for Bosch.
Agian the Etak could of been the size of a chair or then again the size of a coal truck. Either way it is posible at least IMO that the ship was in fact a GTVA design .
Also anyone notice that GTVA was not all that surprised about the Iceni apearing from that asteroid base? At least that is wat it looked to me that they were not all that surprised about the Iceni.
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Either way it is posible at least IMO that the ship was in fact a GTVA design .
UNDER BOSCH'S DIRECTION
:doubt:
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So you take for good everithing the GTVA tells you?? At least when it comes to Bosch we know GTVA command to be less then onest to say the least. and even if it was under Bosch's direction what makes you think this was not a GTVA project? Perhaps something of use by the SOC or something. Even today we see high ranking milatary oficials involved in the design and deployment of new weapons designs etc.
This could of been entrusted to besch's supervision when he was still a 'loyal" officer of the GTVA!
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So you take for good everithing the GTVA tells you?? At least when it comes to Bosch we know GTVA command to be less then onest to say the least. and even if it was under Bosch's direction what makes you think this was not a GTVA project? Perhaps something of use by the SOC or something. Even today we see high ranking milatary oficials involved in the design and deployment of new weapons designs etc.
'
Well its canon. Bosch could've been a monkey with a hologram.
This could of been entrusted to besch's supervision when he was still a 'loyal" officer of the GTVA!
''captured by the Neo-Terran Front at the start of their rebellion''
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They would of gained shi design intel about existing ship classes and designs specs but not about the Iceni.
It's not like they needed to reinvent the wheel for the Iceni....
And asuming they already had the design specs on hand when they captured the shipyards that would mean that those designs had to have come from somewhere and i do not believe that you can actualy design work out all the details of a new ship class especialy one of such power without anyone from the outside knowing about it. It is simply imposible.
No it's not. How do you think modern militaries build, ooh, ships and aircraft without other nations immediately producing replicas? Magic?
Also if we are to look at the diferent designs in use by the GTVA for example the Deimos class which is a ship closest to the Iceni in lenght and firepower for its size (please note that i'm not saing they are equal but rather the closes thing I have to compare with) it must of taken at leash a few years to develop and work out all the bugs and design problems. And this was done in the alocated timeslcae because the GTVA did not have anby war gooing on which would put a strain on its available resources and economy. You will say that this was largely not the case of the NTF since maibe they do not even get paid but they sure as hell have to eath repair theyr ships from damage rearm them etc. and that would reduce the available resources avaiolable to bosch in a considerable way. Not to mention that bosch would of had to suply his scientists working on the ETAK device with materials etc.
And the NTF could use information learnt from the Deimos to speed up the building process of the Iceni. I mean, it's not like you have naval warships launching nowadays that don't work; there may be quirks in the electrics, etc, but they still work (float, move, fire). And I sincerely doubt the GTVA/NTF lacked the technology to simulate and test designs.
Such a ship could of only been posible if the GTVA already ordered a firts of its class Iceni but the diference was that intead of what they intented tohave Bosch made his own alterations to the design of the ship probably when it was about half way done in order to keep GTVA inpections from noticing anything and perhaps right before he started the rebelion. The rest would of been an easy task to complete .
The highly specialised design of the Iceni requires more than 'just a few alternations'....
You will say that building such a ship in such a large period of time is unreal but then again this is the first and only ship of its class. Also note that the ship might of been avaialbe a lot sooner if Bosch would of completed his ETAK device sooner. So basicly the ship builders would of waited for Bosch.
Agian the Etak could of been the size of a chair or then again the size of a coal truck. Either way it is posible at least IMO that the ship was in fact a GTVA design .
I'm not sure what your point is; the size of ETAK has no bearing on the specialised nature of the Iceni.
Also anyone notice that GTVA was not all that surprised about the Iceni apearing from that asteroid base? At least that is wat it looked to me that they were not all that surprised about the Iceni.
The pilots sounded bloody surprised......
Or, they were familiar with the concept of hiding a ship in an asteroid.
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I'm not talking about the pilots beeing surprised i'm talking about the fact that GTVA command did not sound all that surprised about the apearence of the Iceni.
Also Snail if say you comision a new design for a tank . And to supervise the construction and make sure most of what you want done is done you entrust somebody to supervise the build the design. And let us say that person makes alterations to the original design in order to produce something more efective in the various directions you pointed out. Now that tank would be built under the direction of the person asigned by you.
Or hell it could even be his design specs which he worked out with you engeniers from you...wahtever...country corpatate business etc. doesnt that mean the the specific tank is built under his direct supervision and under his direction?
After the ship is almost complete or half way done or 1/3'rd it doesnt really matter, say that person decides to take the tank you paid for and designed so to speak even though not all of it, and start a war of his own and using that tank as his mobile army headquarters. Doesnt that mean the tankwas....captured or seeized from you since you are its original contractor you paid for the R&D you provided the manufacturing capabilaties etc. So that person finishes the tank and makes use of it.
Does that mean that you actualy never comisioned or requested that such a tank be built and that the design and construction of the tank was the renegades own personal design and credit?
Also say that person does manage to succede in all of this on his own not take the tank from you but seize some of your manufacturing capabilaties and some of your lands what makes you think he will have the resources or the manpower to fund such and endeavour on his own. I mean he has to feed them clothe them repair other tanks and provide spare parts . Build other tanks to replace the ones he has lost etc. !
I mean come on you can be a tactical genious but you would have to have the funds of hallf the GTVA just to keep the war machine gooing resuplied and repaired and in fighting order. While at the same time battle with the casualties of the war. The you have to ensure enough of a milatary presence around the front lines to keep the huge numeriacal advantage of the enemy at bay. Even if they come through a narrow field they can still swarm you if you weaken your defences.
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Also Snail if say you comision a new design for a tank . And to supervise the construction and make sure most of what you want done is done you entrust somebody to supervise the build the design. And let us say that person makes alterations to the original design in order to produce something more efective in the various directions you pointed out. Now that tank would be built under the direction of the person asigned by you.
It's not really like that. It's more like telling your designer to make a fighter out of an AWACS.
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I'm not talking about the pilots beeing surprised i'm talking about the fact that GTVA command did not sound all that surprised about the apearence of the Iceni.
What did you expect? A melodramatic 'oh my god, what is this? Crikey? Oh no!'. They reacted in the way any competent military commander would - new enemy target, go get it.
(assuming they didn't have prior intelligence about the ship from NTF operatives like Snipes, of course...)
Also Snail if say you comision a new design for a tank . And to supervise the construction and make sure most of what you want done is done you entrust somebody to supervise the build the design. And let us say that person makes alterations to the original design in order to produce something more efective in the various directions you pointed out. Now that tank would be built under the direction of the person asigned by you.
Or hell it could even be his design specs which he worked out with you engeniers from you...wahtever...country corpatate business etc. doesnt that mean the the specific tank is built under his direct supervision and under his direction?
After the ship is almost complete or half way done or 1/3'rd it doesnt really matter, say that person decides to take the tank you paid for and designed so to speak even though not all of it, and start a war of his own and using that tank as his mobile army headquarters. Doesnt that mean the tankwas....captured or seeized from you since you are its original contractor you paid for the R&D you provided the manufacturing capabilaties etc. So that person finishes the tank and makes use of it.
Does that mean that you actualy never comisioned or requested that such a tank be built and that the design and construction of the tank was the renegades own personal design and credit?
Also say that person does manage to succede in all of this on his own not take the tank from you but seize some of your manufacturing capabilaties and some of your lands what makes you think he will have the resources or the manpower to fund such and endeavour on his own. I mean he has to feed them clothe them repair other tanks and provide spare parts . Build other tanks to replace the ones he has lost etc. !
What point are you trying to make? Because I'm completely lost here.
I mean come on you can be a tactical genious but you would have to have the funds of hallf the GTVA just to keep the war machine gooing resuplied and repaired and in fighting order. While at the same time battle with the casualties of the war. The you have to ensure enough of a milatary presence around the front lines to keep the huge numeriacal advantage of the enemy at bay. Even if they come through a narrow field they can still swarm you if you weaken your defences.
Again, what is your point? The whole rebellion was a cover; and the Iceni was essential for Boschs' true motives. Are you suggesting the NTF never build a new ship to replace their losses? Why on earth would you need the funds of the whole GTVA for the NTF?
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About half the funds i said. Why simply because its expensive to wage a war very very expensive. You have to have some sort of economical powerhouse to sutain such a bloody war.
Also I'm just saing that it is highly unlikely that bosch would of had the economical power to sustain such war for much longer and get around to building new warships classes. Sure you could afford some replacements but not that much.
The only reason Bosch sustained the rebelion for so long was the GTVA's indecisions and lack of an iron will to win. It took the collie to do what they could of done long before the situation got this far.
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About half the funds i said. Why simply because its expensive to wage a war very very expensive. You have to have some sort of economical powerhouse to sutain such a bloody war.
Also I'm just saing that it is highly unlikely that bosch would of had the economical power to sustain such war for much longer and get around to building new warships classes. Sure you could afford some replacements but not that much.
The only reason Bosch sustained the rebelion for so long was the GTVA's indecisions and lack of an iron will to win. It took the collie to do what they could of done long before the situation got this far.
I don't understand where you're making this up from. Every related fail debrief indicates the NTF war was standing on the brink of a GTVA defeat (being forced into conceding to the NTF demands), not one where the rebellion was faltering through lack of money. Which is presumably why you're inventing this tosh about the GTVA being indecisive or lacking will (will to what? Sacrifice thousands of lives in futile assaults ala Stalins' Russia in WW2?)
Moreso, the NTF did not build new warship classes - it build a single, new warship which was a focal point of the rebellion. The entire war was being ran by Bosch to (in effect) build this ship and then use it. You can say his(Bosches) single-minded focus led to the eventual defeat of the NTF as it did overstretch itself into too many systems, but then again that wasn't the point of the war... put it this way, it is probably about as unlikely that Ross 128 and any-two adjoining systems had the capacity to build ships as the NTF did. Which is not very unlikely.
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BW: Bosch did have 18 months to build the Iceni and dictatorial powers to expend as much manpower, material, and funding on it as he liked. This obviates the need for the GTVA to have been at all involved in its construction. He could well have begun and completed the vessel during the NTF Rebellion.
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Look a war can be won like the one between the GTVA and the NTF if you are willing to take the risks and are willing to make the sacrifices in order to obtain your victory. Mi belief is that no matter what the cost the GTVA should of shown an iron fist and masacre the NTF this way making them an example to future extremist groups.
Look it is obvious the NTF did not have acces to advanced tech like the GTVA or the resources the GTVA had. Why i believe this is simply because of the overwhealming number of lokis and hers mk I and basicly outdated ships that they had at least in terms of fighters.
Also the GTVA was fighting wich just half of its entire war machine .
Why? simply because of one of the reasons you pointed out aldo and that is that this was a terran rebelion and the terran fleet had to be the bulk of the war fleet engaged in the war. Otherwise I see no plausable reason for the NTF managing to bring the GTVA to a stalemate.
Also I still believe that Bosch's frigate was already beeing built or was already built at the time Bosch captured the polaris shipyards. I do believe that if the case was the other way around they would of said that bosch captured the shipyards and used them to construct the frigate. Not that the ship was captured from the polaris shipyards. (At least if I remember corectly )
As for Stalin and his ww2 tactics.....they may have been crude bloody and on the brink of insanity but they worked did they not?? Just goes to show that if the GTVA would of been willing to accept the cost then they could of won without the help of the Collie. It is much better that they had the collie to avoid the bloodsheed but this war could of been won in both ways.
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<offensive/patronizing/mean message removed>
What an ass hole I'm being. Sorry.
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Snail was there a point for the post? What's with all the hostile attitude. At least that what it looks to me.
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Look a war can be won like the one between the GTVA and the NTF if you are willing to take the risks and are willing to make the sacrifices in order to obtain your victory. Mi belief is that no matter what the cost the GTVA should of shown an iron fist and masacre the NTF this way making them an example to future extremist groups.
Regardless of the cost in human lives on their own side?
Well, I guess populations have always been tolerant of the government pissing away thousands upon thousands of lives with suicidal military tactics.... oh. Put it this way, I'm glad I'd never serve in an army under you; I'm not sure the resultant mutiny would be all that much fun.
Look it is obvious the NTF did not have acces to advanced tech like the GTVA or the resources the GTVA had. Why i believe this is simply because of the overwhealming number of lokis and hers mk I and basicly outdated ships that they had at least in terms of fighters.
They don't need the same access, only sufficient access to a) focus on building the Iceni and b) create forces to defend a smaller area against the GTVA for long enough to force a stalemate.
Although I'd note they did have the Deimos, which isn't exactly outdated.
Also the GTVA was fighting wich just half of its entire war machine .
Why? simply because of one of the reasons you pointed out aldo and that is that this was a terran rebelion and the terran fleet had to be the bulk of the war fleet engaged in the war. Otherwise I see no plausable reason for the NTF managing to bring the GTVA to a stalemate.
This thread has already listed a number of common sense reasons for a stalemate, namely that the NTF was in an easily defensible position with perfect chokepoints (nodes) - at least, in terms of the captured systems.
You're also making some remarkable - and unjustifiable - assumptions; that the Terran fleet (GTA shorthand) was half the GTVA fleet even after the defection of at least one fleet to the NTF (if not more; such as IIRC the Trinity), that the GTA didn't keep any ships in defensive positions in the other Terran or GTVA systems, and that the GVA did not step in when the NTF was invading Vasudan systems and committing war crimes upon Vasudan civillians.
Also I still believe that Bosch's frigate was already beeing built or was already built at the time Bosch captured the polaris shipyards. I do believe that if the case was the other way around they would of said that bosch captured the shipyards and used them to construct the frigate. Not that the ship was captured from the polaris shipyards. (At least if I remember corectly )
It doesn't say that the Iceni was captured with the shipyards. It mentions that the shipyards were captured, and that the Iceni was built there.
As for Stalin and his ww2 tactics.....they may have been crude bloody and on the brink of insanity but they worked did they not?? Just goes to show that if the GTVA would of been willing to accept the cost then they could of won without the help of the Collie. It is much better that they had the collie to avoid the bloodsheed but this war could of been won in both ways.
Russia lost about 10 million, compared to 3.5m for the Germans. Arguably they were only saved thanks to a combination of the Germans picking a 2 front war, the harsh winter, and with the aid of US lend-lease. And the only reason they were able to fight in such a downright suicidal manner is because they were ruled by a despotic tyrant who ordered his Commissars to kill anyone who dared retreat. Now, if you assume the GTVA is a tyrannical dictatorship who care nothing for the deaths of their (necessarily conscripted, as who would volunteer?) pilots, then yes - they could fight like that. Except, of course, that many ships would probably defect to the NTF.
(yes, you can piss about with hypotheticals, too; the NTF could perhaps have beaten the GTVA and forced them to give the Polaris, et al, bloc independence if Bosch hadn't been using it as a cover to raid Vasudan systems)
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Wow, you guys have been arguing about this crap for nearly a month. And I thought I was a Freespace fanboy. :p
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Look i'm was just pointing out that such radical groups have showed theyr face not once but 2 times already and i believe this is not the last rebelion we have at hand in the GTVA especialy now with the destruction of capella and most of the GTVA warfleet masacred by the shivans and NTF.
Mi point was that the GTVA would of made sure to avoid such further actions by endorsing an iron fist polici . Also when you are bataling a war with someone like the NTF who take no shame or remourse from killing civilians terran or vasudan i believe that you can push the limits of morality and sanaty of your decisions as well without sufering much protest from the civilian population. couple that with a good propaganda mahine and i can bet you would get away with masacring half your fleets as the result of you braking the front lines of the war.
Also you said that this would be insane that it would result in devastating casualties for the GTVA. Then I ask you this how many civilians lost theyr lives especialy vasudan civilians in the 18 months of the war?? I can bet that a lot more lives were lost as the result of the genocide enforced by the NTF.
No matter how many lives you would loose as a result of you bloody tactics they can never be equal to the lives lost as the result of genocide at the hands of the NTF.
So this was the main basis of mi arguement ! When you consider the number of lives lost I believe it is better to lose more milatary and save a lot of civilians then the other way around. If let us say the GTVA would of engaged the NTF at full force then i believe that they could of won the wor in a metter of a 1 month or 2 . Altough that would of resulted in high casualties rates they would of spared a lot of lives as well.
Russia lost all those men because they weer poorly equiped and trained and poorly led. In fact if they would of been more capable officers i believe that the situation would of been a lot better.
Also let us not forget that by 1942 and 43 the russians did not really care about casualties simply because they wanted to destroy the german armyes and because they were loosing a lot more civilians every day as a result of the genocidal doctrines of the german wermacht ! Especialy in the areas were you had SS troops stationed .
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Snail was there a point for the post? What's with all the hostile attitude. At least that what it looks to me.
That's why I came to my senses and deleted the message.
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Look i'm was just pointing out that such radical groups have showed theyr face not once but 2 times already and i believe this is not the last rebelion we have at hand in the GTVA especialy now with the destruction of capella and most of the GTVA warfleet masacred by the shivans and NTF.
Right, because people have never rebelled against an oppressive (it'd have to be to get awat with it) government that sends them off to die in futile, badly managed wars.
Mi point was that the GTVA would of made sure to avoid such further actions by endorsing an iron fist polici . Also when you are bataling a war with someone like the NTF who take no shame or remourse from killing civilians terran or vasudan i believe that you can push the limits of morality and sanaty of your decisions as well without sufering much protest from the civilian population. couple that with a good propaganda mahine and i can bet you would get away with masacring half your fleets as the result of you braking the front lines of the war.
Are you talking about using the same tactics as the NTF, or just pissing away your entire economy on increasingly stupid human wave-style attacks?
Also you said that this would be insane that it would result in devastating casualties for the GTVA. Then I ask you this how many civilians lost theyr lives especialy vasudan civilians in the 18 months of the war?? I can bet that a lot more lives were lost as the result of the genocide enforced by the NTF.
No matter how many lives you would loose as a result of you bloody tactics they can never be equal to the lives lost as the result of genocide at the hands of the NTF.
What don't you understand here? The GTVA cannot let tens of thousands of people get slaughtered by the NTF because all it will do is a) make the people cry out for a settlement and b) strengthen the NTFs image. How many Terran ships would defect to the NTF rather than be massacred in idiotic assaults on entrenched positions, human wave attacks straight into enemy guns?
So this was the main basis of mi arguement ! When you consider the number of lives lost I believe it is better to lose more milatary and save a lot of civilians then the other way around. If let us say the GTVA would of engaged the NTF at full force then i believe that they could of won the wor in a metter of a 1 month or 2 . Altough that would of resulted in high casualties rates they would of spared a lot of lives as well.
Don't be silly. you're actually advocating throwing every ship in the GTVA into an ambush? If anything, the first few months of the war was when the NTF was strongest - when they could bottle themselve up and secure the defensible systems before Bosch launched attacks into Vasudan space for his own secre aims.
Russia lost all those men because they weer poorly equiped and trained and poorly led. In fact if they would of been more capable officers i believe that the situation would of been a lot better.
Also let us not forget that by 1942 and 43 the russians did not really care about casualties simply because they wanted to destroy the german armyes and because they were loosing a lot more civilians every day as a result of the genocidal doctrines of the german wermacht ! Especialy in the areas were you had SS troops stationed .
So, what you're saying is the GTVA should have a leader like Stalin. Because, y'know, the reason the Russians lost their officers (and why they could throw thousands - millions - of conscripts into suicide attacks) was a climate of fear and oppression caused by Stalins' purges. So what you want is an oppressive dictator who subverts the democratic process in order to piss away tens of thousands of lives to more quickly win a war.
The NTF could not 'defeat' the GTVA - but as the failure debriefings show, it could force them into a concessionary peace treaty through attrition. The only way to stop the effect of attrition would be turn the GTVA into something worse than the NTF, something insidious that has no fear of forcing millions of men and women to their deaths and oppressing the inevitable complaints.
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Hmmm. I was just thinking about something. Thinking in areas of the fenris and leviathen cruisers. The fenris is faster, weaker, and a striker cruiser. The leviathen is slow, stronger, and a good cruiser for defending or opposing (its weapons are so much better than the fenrises).
Then comes the gtva's maneuver to replace cruisers with corvettes. Along with the deimos standard terran corvette, why not make a maneuver similar to the fenris cruiser design only to corvettes. A strong corvette that's slow, and a weak corvette that's fast and not so weaponed up.
Ironically the iceni balance versus the deimos balance is something laughable. The iceni is bigger, more powerful weapons, and it's faster than the deimos, but it has no AAA at all. The deimos is like 300m shorter, not as durable, it's got less powerful weapons, but at least it's got some nice AAA.
Anyway this is possibly my most informative or retarded post of the day.
I don't know if the gtva would want to make a stronger slower corvette and make the existing deimos the lite version.
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Hmmm. I was just thinking about something. Thinking in areas of the fenris and leviathen cruisers. The fenris is faster, weaker, and a striker cruiser. The leviathen is slow, stronger, and a good cruiser for defending or opposing (its weapons are so much better than the fenrises).
Then comes the gtva's maneuver to replace cruisers with corvettes. Along with the deimos standard terran corvette, why not make a maneuver similar to the fenris cruiser design only to corvettes. A strong corvette that's slow, and a weak corvette that's fast and not so weaponed up.
Ironically the iceni balance versus the deimos balance is something laughable. The iceni is bigger, more powerful weapons, and it's faster than the deimos, but it has no AAA at all. The deimos is like 300m shorter, not as durable, it's got less powerful weapons, but at least it's got some nice AAA.
Anyway this is possibly my most informative or retarded post of the day.
I don't know if the gtva would want to make a stronger slower corvette and make the existing deimos the lite version.
When the Leviathan and Fenris were made, fighters and bombers were far less effective than in the latter stages of FS1 and in FS2; there were no shields and, seemingly, no heavy bombs. This means that roles which the Leviathan was designed to operate in can be filled by the fighters, etc, IMO - so you don't need either a corvette or cruiser filling that sort of role as much. Albeit I suspect FS2 was seeing a 'rebalancing' of GTVA forces, with the corvettes taking up hunter-killer duties and destroyer classes slipping behind the frontlines to act as C&C and provide fleet-wide fighter protection.
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Well one thing we do clearely see in FS2 is the direction to which each race sticks. I mean the GTA puts an emphasis on defending against attacks and C&C while the vasudans seem to go just the oposite way in the ofensive role . Sure they have C&C abilaties well developed b ut the Hecate seems to be more better suited for the task.
But there is one question which to me has yet to be answered : Would the GTA be content with the vasudans beeing the ones with the ofensive role? Since well as we can clearely see the GTA is fast running out of realy powerfull ships in terms of AC firepower while the vasudans to me it seems are just starting to develop theyr ofensive capabilaties.
Who knows perhaps they would rely more on the Deimos but that is a very dangerous gamble the play. When the Orion is totaly phased out they will have just the Hecate which formidable as it may be it is weak when compared to the its vasudan counterpart. This is largely due to different design and use aspects but still the Hecate is weak !
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True, AlphaOne.
Also, the Terrans have control of many more systems, but most of them are backwater systems with little activity. The Vasudans control only 5 systems, all of which are highly populated.
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But there is one thing that just keeps on bothering me.
Look the Orion for example is an old design but even so it is a monster when compared with any other GTVA warship of its class in terms of AC firepower. I mean that thing is just the king of the battlefield when it comes to cap ship close range engagements in the GTVA.
And like it or not the GTA does not have a replacement. And like it or not the Orion IMO still represents terran pride and power and a ship which can surface a lot of strong emotions from terran civilians and milatary. It is a simbol and something with which terrans all over GTVA space identify.
Getting rid of something like this is just plain stupid. The vasudans on the other hand keep to theyr own philosophy(sp?) if you can not make something work better get rid of it and build another one better and more powerfull then the last. This must be what keeps theyr spirits high IMO constantly improving themselfs and prooving they can do thing more powerfull more better.
Also IMO the existing plan that we have in FS2 of replacing the old Orions put in motion by the GTVA is not without a hidden meaning to it. I seriously DO NOT BELIEVE terrans would alow themselfs to fall behind the vasudans since that is basicly what it looks to me and would be a serious blow to morale in the long term.
And I believe a replacement for the Orion was either in the design stages or already designed and beeing secretly built or tested somewhere in a secret location or a replacement in the similar line of ovewhealming AC firepower (like the Orion) is/was in future plans for the GTVA.
Also I believe that Like it or not the GTVA is forced to not only abandon its plans for scrapping the remaining Orions but also bring back into active life some of the Orions that were not already stripped to the bone or choped off. ( I mean the ones whre bringing them back is still a good idea economicly wise)
However there is the other option that of investing a little more money and build new Hecates but I believe that the GTVA short on cash as it will be would prefer the cheaper option. This way tehn can save some money in the short term. (it will prove to be a little expensive in the long run but still in the short term to me it sounds like the only reasonable thing to do) Also this way they will most definetly win some votes so to speak with the terran population and the Capellan refugees to have them guarded and protected by the pride of the GTA ! This will ensure them that they are taken seriously by the GTVA and that they have the most powerfull rpotection in the GTVA. Because I believe that your average GTA civilian has no idea of the poor aaaf defences of the Orion.
And that is something which can be solved by adding a corvette to it or by increasing the escort fighter wings deplyd at any given time.
Either way you look at it you have the the pride of the GTA (GTVA) the Orion and a Deimos or even a Hecate guarding some of the larges refugee convois in the history of the GTVA.
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Bosch is about 50% responsible for causing the second shiven invasion. He also wanted to sell out the GTVA for his vision of Neo-Terra. For that reason, I say go Vasudans.
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Actualy he wanted to ally himself with the shivans actualy he wanted the GTA to become ally with the shivans.
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Bosch is about 50% responsible for causing the second shiven invasion. He also wanted to sell out the GTVA for his vision of Neo-Terra. For that reason, I say go Vasudans.
50%? He opened the damn portal.
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Hoe did that get by me? Actualy Bosch is the onlyu one resposible for the second shivan invasion. Altough I can not shake the feeling that he somehow heleped the GTVA towards the end of the campaign.
But still he is responsible for the destruction of capellaand the GTVA war fleet.
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Bosch may have opened the portal but we were the ones drunk with over confidance, and WE invaded the Shivens because we thought that we defeated them once, so now they are all weak. We did not destroy the portal and Gamma Draconis nodes when we had the chance. So WE let the Shivens into our systems.
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Shivens = Shivans.
Apart from being ass hole, if Bosch had not opened the portal, we would not have been overconfident. So it's completely Bosch's fault. You cannot change how someone will act.
But yeah.
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Shivens = Shivans.
Apart from being ass hole, if Bosch had not opened the portal, we would not have been overconfident. So it's completely Bosch's fault. You cannot change how someone will act.
But yeah.
Bosch was doing what he thought was right. He was a patriot, and he believed beyond all doubt that an alliance with the Shivans would ensure the future survival of humanity. It didn't pan out, but it was worth a shot.
In all honesty, the invasion cannot be attributed to one man, but instead to a series of cockups that culminated with the near annihilation of the Terran & Vasudan species. It's that simple.
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It probably did work, you know bosch was still alive and valuable enough for the shivans to take him alive. Just nothing of new knowledge about bosch past that in fs2.
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Due to my extremely powerful senses of observation, I can tell this topic is about: who's stronger, NTF or Vasudans; would GTVA have won without Colossus; who's fault is it for the invasion; which is better, apple pie or ice cream.
Anyway, I'm gonna jump on topic 2, which seems like a no brainer to me: GTVA would certainly have won against the NTF without the Colossus. With the Colossus it helped, but the NTF was doomed either way. They had limited numbers and held only 3 systems, as opposed to the entire military force of two combined species that held all known systems except for the NTF's three and Sol system. In a strict sheer-numbers game, GTVA wins hands-down. Can't understand why that topic is such a debate...
As for who's responsible for the invasion...well, yes, Bosch opened the portal. That's certainly his fault. But the GTVA gained control of it and held it, and refused to shut it down in the effort to learn how to build one. So part of it is their fault too. I don't know how quickly they reacted when they spotted the Juggernaut in the nebula and tried to blow up the Knossos, but if it was a slow reaction it's even more their fault for not blowing it up earlier. Not sure that would have made a difference since the portal may have stabilized anyway...
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Due to my extremely powerful senses of observation, I can tell this topic is about: who's stronger, NTF or Vasudans; would GTVA have won without Colossus; who's fault is it for the invasion; which is better, apple pie or ice cream.
Anyway, I'm gonna jump on topic 2, which seems like a no brainer to me: GTVA would certainly have won against the NTF without the Colossus. With the Colossus it helped, but the NTF was doomed either way. They had limited numbers and held only 3 systems, as opposed to the entire military force of two combined species that held all known systems except for the NTF's three and Sol system. In a strict sheer-numbers game, GTVA wins hands-down. Can't understand why that topic is such a debate...
Because it's not a sheer numbers game; the NTF hold a very strong defensive (blockade) position.
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Because it's not a sheer numbers game; the NTF hold a very strong defensive (blockade) position.
Yeah, I realized that, which is why i specified the numbers game aspect. The NTF were holding a defensive position on three systems, and obviously it's much easier to defend than it is to attack. Thus, the GTVA would sustain much heavier losses than the NTF if the NTF only cared about holding those three systems. However, Bosch wanted to get to the portal he activated and bring most of the fleet with him; in trying to get to the portal, he sortied his entire military and because of that the GTVA destroyed him.
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It is a much more complicated issue then it apreas. Look the GTVA IMO could of won the war wihtout the help of the Collie but it would of resulte in severe casualties. Also IMO the war could of been won a lot sooner and with less casualties if the GTVA would of moved faster and would of agreed to accept the inevitable civilian casualties. But there is also politics public morale etc.
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It is a much more complicated issue then it apreas. Look the GTVA IMO could of won the war wihtout the help of the Collie but it would of resulte in severe casualties.
Absolutely untrue. Go back and reread the command briefing for "The Sixth Wonder". The GTVA was on the verge of conceding Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius to the NTF. If it weren't for the deus ex machina of the Colossus, the NTF would have won.
Also IMO the war could of been won a lot sooner and with less casualties if the GTVA would of moved faster and would of agreed to accept the inevitable civilian casualties. But there is also politics public morale etc.
So, in other words, the GTVA would have won sooner if it had turned into the tyrannical regime that the NTF had been rebelling against? That's a great way to trigger even more rebellion.
Haven't we been over this ground before? I feel this thread is due for closure.
EDIT: All you n00bs who are blindly arguing for the GTVA's side should take your blindfolds off, take a step back, and look at the situation as a whole. History is written by the victors, and you've managed to swallow the GTVA's propaganda hook, line, and sinker. Try thinking about the war from the NTF's point of view (in general, not Bosch). Would it have been so terrible if the NTF had won? Why must it be necessary for all Terran systems to be united under the GTVA?
Just some food for thought. :)