[AlphaOne]

They would of gained shi design intel about existing ship classes and designs specs but not about the Iceni.

And asuming they already had the design specs on hand when they captured the shipyards that would mean that those designs had to have come from somewhere and i do not believe that you can actualy design work out all the details of a new ship class especialy one of such power without anyone from the outside knowing about it. It is simply imposible.

Also if we are to look at the diferent designs in use by the GTVA for example the Deimos class which is a ship closest to the Iceni in lenght and firepower for its size (please note that i'm not saing they are equal but rather the closes thing I have to compare with) it must of taken at leash a few years to develop and work out all the bugs and design problems. And this was done in the alocated timeslcae because the GTVA did not have anby war gooing on which would put a strain on its available resources and economy. You will say that this was largely not the case of the NTF since maibe they do not even get paid but they sure as hell have to eath repair theyr ships from damage rearm them etc. and that would reduce the available resources avaiolable to bosch in a considerable way. Not to mention that bosch would of had to suply his scientists working on the ETAK device with materials etc.

Such a ship could of only been posible if the GTVA already ordered a firts of its class Iceni but the diference was that intead of what they intented tohave Bosch made his own alterations to the design of the ship probably when it was about half way done in order to keep GTVA inpections from noticing anything and perhaps right before he started the rebelion. The rest would of been an easy task to complete .

You will say that building such a ship in such a large period of time is unreal but then again this is the first and only ship of its class. Also note that the ship might of been avaialbe a lot sooner if Bosch would of completed his ETAK device sooner. So basicly the ship builders would of waited for Bosch.

Agian the Etak could of been the size of a chair or then again the size of a coal truck. Either way it is posible at least IMO that the ship was in fact a GTVA design .

Also anyone notice that GTVA was not all that surprised about the Iceni apearing from that asteroid base? At least that is wat it looked to me that they were not all that surprised about the Iceni.

[Snail]

Either way it is posible at least IMO that the ship was in fact a GTVA design .

UNDER BOSCH'S DIRECTION

[AlphaOne]

So you take for good everithing the GTVA tells you?? At least when it comes to Bosch we know GTVA command to be less then onest to say the least. and even if it was under Bosch's direction what makes you think this was not a GTVA project? Perhaps something of use by the SOC or something. Even today we see high ranking milatary oficials involved in the design and deployment of new weapons designs etc.

This could of been entrusted to besch's supervision when he was still a 'loyal" officer of the GTVA!

[Snail]

So you take for good everithing the GTVA tells you?? At least when it comes to Bosch we know GTVA command to be less then onest to say the least. and even if it was under Bosch's direction what makes you think this was not a GTVA project? Perhaps something of use by the SOC or something. Even today we see high ranking milatary oficials involved in the design and deployment of new weapons designs etc.

'
Well its canon. Bosch could've been a monkey with a hologram.

This could of been entrusted to besch's supervision when he was still a 'loyal" officer of the GTVA!

''captured by the Neo-Terran Front at the start of their rebellion''

[aldo_14]

They would of gained shi design intel about existing ship classes and designs specs but not about the Iceni.

It's not like they needed to reinvent the wheel for the Iceni....

And asuming they already had the design specs on hand when they captured the shipyards that would mean that those designs had to have come from somewhere and i do not believe that you can actualy design work out all the details of a new ship class especialy one of such power without anyone from the outside knowing about it. It is simply imposible.

No it's not.  How do you think modern militaries build, ooh, ships and aircraft without other nations immediately producing replicas?  Magic?

Also if we are to look at the diferent designs in use by the GTVA for example the Deimos class which is a ship closest to the Iceni in lenght and firepower for its size (please note that i'm not saing they are equal but rather the closes thing I have to compare with) it must of taken at leash a few years to develop and work out all the bugs and design problems. And this was done in the alocated timeslcae because the GTVA did not have anby war gooing on which would put a strain on its available resources and economy. You will say that this was largely not the case of the NTF since maibe they do not even get paid but they sure as hell have to eath repair theyr ships from damage rearm them etc. and that would reduce the available resources avaiolable to bosch in a considerable way. Not to mention that bosch would of had to suply his scientists working on the ETAK device with materials etc.

And the NTF could use information learnt from the Deimos to speed up the building process of the Iceni.  I mean, it's not like you have naval warships launching nowadays that don't work; there may be quirks in the electrics, etc, but they still work (float, move, fire).  And I sincerely doubt the GTVA/NTF lacked the technology to simulate and test designs.

Such a ship could of only been posible if the GTVA already ordered a firts of its class Iceni but the diference was that intead of what they intented tohave Bosch made his own alterations to the design of the ship probably when it was about half way done in order to keep GTVA inpections from noticing anything and perhaps right before he started the rebelion. The rest would of been an easy task to complete .

The highly specialised design of the Iceni requires more than 'just a few alternations'....

You will say that building such a ship in such a large period of time is unreal but then again this is the first and only ship of its class. Also note that the ship might of been avaialbe a lot sooner if Bosch would of completed his ETAK device sooner. So basicly the ship builders would of waited for Bosch.

Agian the Etak could of been the size of a chair or then again the size of a coal truck. Either way it is posible at least IMO that the ship was in fact a GTVA design .

I'm not sure what your point is; the size of ETAK has no bearing on the specialised nature of the Iceni.
 

Also anyone notice that GTVA was not all that surprised about the Iceni apearing from that asteroid base? At least that is wat it looked to me that they were not all that surprised about the Iceni.

The pilots sounded bloody surprised......
Or, they were familiar with the concept of hiding a ship in an asteroid.

[AlphaOne]

I'm not talking about the pilots beeing surprised i'm talking about the fact that GTVA command did not sound all that surprised about the apearence of the Iceni.

Also Snail if say you comision a new design for a tank . And to supervise the construction and make sure most of what you want done is done you entrust somebody to supervise the build the design. And let us say that person makes alterations to the original design in order to produce something more efective in the various directions you pointed out. Now that tank would be built under the direction of the person asigned by you.

Or hell it could even be his design specs which he worked out with you engeniers from you...wahtever...country corpatate business etc. doesnt that mean the the specific tank is built under his direct supervision and under his direction?

After the ship is almost complete or half way done or 1/3'rd it doesnt really matter, say that person decides to take the tank you paid for and designed so to speak even though not all of it, and start a war of his own and using that tank as his mobile army headquarters. Doesnt that mean the tankwas....captured or seeized from you since you are its original contractor you paid for the R&D you provided the manufacturing capabilaties etc. So that person finishes the tank and makes use of it.

Does that mean that you actualy never comisioned or requested that such a tank be built and that the design and construction of the tank was the renegades own personal design and credit?

Also say that person does manage to succede in all of this on his own not take the tank from you but seize some of your manufacturing capabilaties and some of your lands what makes you think he will have the resources or the manpower to fund such and endeavour on his own. I mean he has to feed them clothe them repair other tanks and provide spare parts . Build other tanks to replace the ones he has lost etc. !


I mean come on you can be a tactical genious but you would have to have the funds of hallf the GTVA just to keep the war machine gooing resuplied and repaired and in fighting order. While at the same time battle with the casualties of the war. The you have to ensure enough of a milatary presence around the front lines to keep the huge numeriacal advantage of the enemy at bay. Even if they come through a narrow field they can still swarm you if you weaken your defences.

[Snail]

Also Snail if say you comision a new design for a tank . And to supervise the construction and make sure most of what you want done is done you entrust somebody to supervise the build the design. And let us say that person makes alterations to the original design in order to produce something more efective in the various directions you pointed out. Now that tank would be built under the direction of the person asigned by you.

It's not really like that. It's more like telling your designer to make a fighter out of an AWACS.

[aldo_14]

I'm not talking about the pilots beeing surprised i'm talking about the fact that GTVA command did not sound all that surprised about the apearence of the Iceni.

What did you expect?  A melodramatic 'oh my god, what is this?  Crikey?  Oh no!'.  They reacted in the way any competent military commander would - new enemy target, go get it.

(assuming they didn't have prior intelligence about the ship from NTF operatives like Snipes, of course...)

Also Snail if say you comision a new design for a tank . And to supervise the construction and make sure most of what you want done is done you entrust somebody to supervise the build the design. And let us say that person makes alterations to the original design in order to produce something more efective in the various directions you pointed out. Now that tank would be built under the direction of the person asigned by you.

Or hell it could even be his design specs which he worked out with you engeniers from you...wahtever...country corpatate business etc. doesnt that mean the the specific tank is built under his direct supervision and under his direction?

After the ship is almost complete or half way done or 1/3'rd it doesnt really matter, say that person decides to take the tank you paid for and designed so to speak even though not all of it, and start a war of his own and using that tank as his mobile army headquarters. Doesnt that mean the tankwas....captured or seeized from you since you are its original contractor you paid for the R&D you provided the manufacturing capabilaties etc. So that person finishes the tank and makes use of it.

Does that mean that you actualy never comisioned or requested that such a tank be built and that the design and construction of the tank was the renegades own personal design and credit?

Also say that person does manage to succede in all of this on his own not take the tank from you but seize some of your manufacturing capabilaties and some of your lands what makes you think he will have the resources or the manpower to fund such and endeavour on his own. I mean he has to feed them clothe them repair other tanks and provide spare parts . Build other tanks to replace the ones he has lost etc. !

What point are you trying to make?  Because I'm completely lost here.

I mean come on you can be a tactical genious but you would have to have the funds of hallf the GTVA just to keep the war machine gooing resuplied and repaired and in fighting order. While at the same time battle with the casualties of the war. The you have to ensure enough of a milatary presence around the front lines to keep the huge numeriacal advantage of the enemy at bay. Even if they come through a narrow field they can still swarm you if you weaken your defences.

Again, what is your point?  The whole rebellion was a cover; and the Iceni was essential for Boschs' true motives.  Are you suggesting the NTF never build a new ship to replace their losses?  Why on earth would you need the funds of the whole GTVA for the NTF?

[AlphaOne]

About half the funds i said. Why simply because its expensive to wage a war very very expensive. You have to have some sort of economical powerhouse to sutain such a bloody war.

Also I'm just saing that it is highly unlikely that bosch would of had the economical power to sustain such war for much longer and get around to building new warships classes. Sure you could afford some replacements but not that much.

The only reason Bosch sustained the rebelion for so long was the GTVA's indecisions and lack of an iron will to win. It took the collie to do what they could of done long before the situation got this far.

[aldo_14]

About half the funds i said. Why simply because its expensive to wage a war very very expensive. You have to have some sort of economical powerhouse to sutain such a bloody war.

Also I'm just saing that it is highly unlikely that bosch would of had the economical power to sustain such war for much longer and get around to building new warships classes. Sure you could afford some replacements but not that much.

The only reason Bosch sustained the rebelion for so long was the GTVA's indecisions and lack of an iron will to win. It took the collie to do what they could of done long before the situation got this far.

I don't understand where you're making this up from.  Every related fail debrief indicates the NTF war was standing on the brink of a GTVA defeat (being forced into conceding to the NTF demands), not one where the rebellion was faltering through lack of money.  Which is presumably why you're inventing this tosh about the GTVA being indecisive or lacking will (will to what?  Sacrifice thousands of lives in futile assaults ala Stalins' Russia in WW2?)

Moreso, the NTF did not build new warship classes - it build a single, new warship which was a focal point of the rebellion.  The entire war was being ran by Bosch to (in effect) build this ship and then use it.  You can say his(Bosches) single-minded focus led to the eventual defeat of the NTF as it did overstretch itself into too many systems, but then again that wasn't the point of the war... put it this way, it is probably about as unlikely that Ross 128 and any-two adjoining systems had the capacity to build ships as the NTF did.  Which is not very unlikely.

[NGTM-1R]

BW: Bosch did have 18 months to build the Iceni and dictatorial powers to expend as much manpower, material, and funding on it as he liked. This obviates the need for the GTVA to have been at all involved in its construction. He could well have begun and completed the vessel during the NTF Rebellion.

[AlphaOne]

Look a war can be won like the one between the GTVA and the NTF if you are willing to take the risks and are willing to make the sacrifices in order to obtain your victory. Mi belief is that no matter what the cost the GTVA should of shown an iron fist and masacre the NTF this way making them an example to future extremist groups.

Look it is obvious the NTF did not have acces to advanced tech like the GTVA or the resources the GTVA had. Why i believe this is simply because of the overwhealming number of lokis and hers mk I and basicly outdated ships that they had at least in terms of fighters.

Also the GTVA was fighting wich just half of its entire war machine .

Why? simply because of one of the reasons you pointed out aldo and that is that this was a terran rebelion and the terran fleet had to be the bulk of the war fleet engaged in the war. Otherwise I see no plausable reason for the NTF managing to bring the GTVA to a stalemate.

Also I still believe that Bosch's frigate was already beeing built or was already built at the time Bosch captured the polaris shipyards. I do believe that if the case was the other way around they would of said that bosch captured the shipyards and used them to construct the frigate. Not that the ship was captured from the polaris shipyards. (At least if I remember corectly )

As for Stalin and his ww2 tactics.....they may have been crude bloody and on the brink of insanity but they worked did they not?? Just goes to show that if the GTVA would of been willing to accept the cost then they could of won without the help of the Collie. It is much better that they had the collie to avoid the bloodsheed but this war could of been won in both ways.

[Snail]

<offensive/patronizing/mean message removed>


What an ass hole I'm being. Sorry.

[AlphaOne]

Snail was there a point for the post? What's with all the hostile attitude. At least that what it looks to me.

[aldo_14]

Look a war can be won like the one between the GTVA and the NTF if you are willing to take the risks and are willing to make the sacrifices in order to obtain your victory. Mi belief is that no matter what the cost the GTVA should of shown an iron fist and masacre the NTF this way making them an example to future extremist groups.

Regardless of the cost in human lives on their own side? 

Well, I guess populations have always been tolerant of the government pissing away thousands upon thousands of lives with suicidal military tactics.... oh.  Put it this way, I'm glad I'd never serve in an army under you; I'm not sure the resultant mutiny would be all that much fun.

Look it is obvious the NTF did not have acces to advanced tech like the GTVA or the resources the GTVA had. Why i believe this is simply because of the overwhealming number of lokis and hers mk I and basicly outdated ships that they had at least in terms of fighters.

They don't need the same access, only sufficient access to a) focus on building the Iceni and b) create forces to defend a smaller area against the GTVA for long enough to force a stalemate.

Although I'd note they did have the Deimos, which isn't exactly outdated.

Also the GTVA was fighting wich just half of its entire war machine .

Why? simply because of one of the reasons you pointed out aldo and that is that this was a terran rebelion and the terran fleet had to be the bulk of the war fleet engaged in the war. Otherwise I see no plausable reason for the NTF managing to bring the GTVA to a stalemate.

This thread has already listed a number of common sense reasons for a stalemate, namely that the NTF was in an easily defensible position with perfect chokepoints (nodes) - at least, in terms of the captured systems. 

You're also making some remarkable - and unjustifiable - assumptions; that the Terran fleet (GTA shorthand) was half the GTVA fleet even after the defection of at least one fleet to the NTF (if not more; such as IIRC the Trinity), that the GTA didn't keep any ships in defensive positions in the other Terran or GTVA systems, and that the GVA did not step in when the NTF was invading Vasudan systems and committing war crimes upon Vasudan civillians.

Also I still believe that Bosch's frigate was already beeing built or was already built at the time Bosch captured the polaris shipyards. I do believe that if the case was the other way around they would of said that bosch captured the shipyards and used them to construct the frigate. Not that the ship was captured from the polaris shipyards. (At least if I remember corectly )

It doesn't say that the Iceni was captured with the shipyards.  It mentions that the shipyards were captured, and that the Iceni was built there.

As for Stalin and his ww2 tactics.....they may have been crude bloody and on the brink of insanity but they worked did they not?? Just goes to show that if the GTVA would of been willing to accept the cost then they could of won without the help of the Collie. It is much better that they had the collie to avoid the bloodsheed but this war could of been won in both ways.

Russia lost about 10 million, compared to 3.5m for the Germans.  Arguably they were only saved thanks to a combination of the Germans picking a 2 front war, the harsh winter, and with the aid of US lend-lease.  And the only reason they were able to fight in such a downright suicidal manner is because they were ruled by a despotic tyrant who ordered his Commissars to kill anyone who dared retreat.  Now, if you assume the GTVA is a tyrannical dictatorship who care nothing for the deaths of their (necessarily conscripted, as who would volunteer?) pilots, then yes - they could fight like that.  Except, of course, that many ships would probably defect to the NTF.

(yes, you can piss about with hypotheticals, too; the NTF could perhaps have beaten the GTVA and forced them to give the Polaris, et al, bloc independence if Bosch hadn't been using it as a cover to raid Vasudan systems)

[CP5670]

Wow, you guys have been arguing about this crap for nearly a month. And I thought I was a Freespace fanboy.

[AlphaOne]

Look i'm was just pointing out that such radical groups have showed theyr face not once but 2 times already and i believe this is not the last rebelion we have at hand in the GTVA especialy now with the destruction of capella and most of the GTVA warfleet masacred by the shivans and NTF.

Mi point was that the GTVA would of made sure to avoid such further actions by endorsing an iron fist polici . Also when you are bataling a war with someone like the NTF who take no shame or remourse from killing civilians terran or vasudan i believe that you can push the limits of morality and sanaty of your decisions as well without sufering much protest from the civilian population. couple that with a good propaganda mahine and i can bet you would get away with masacring half your fleets as the result of you braking the front lines of the war.

Also you said that this would be insane that it would result in devastating casualties for the GTVA. Then I ask you this how many civilians lost theyr lives especialy vasudan civilians in the 18 months of the war?? I can bet that a lot more lives were lost as the result of the genocide enforced by the NTF.

No matter how many lives you would loose as a result of you bloody tactics they can never be equal to the lives lost as the result of genocide at the hands of the NTF.

So this was the main basis of mi arguement ! When you consider the number of lives lost I believe it is better to lose more milatary and save a lot of civilians then the other way around. If let us say the GTVA would of engaged the NTF at full force then i believe that they could of won the wor in a metter of a 1 month or 2 . Altough that would of resulted in high casualties rates they would of spared a lot of lives as well.


Russia lost all those men because they weer poorly equiped and trained and poorly led. In fact if they would of been more capable officers i believe that the situation would of been a lot better.

Also let us not forget that by 1942 and 43 the russians did not really care about casualties simply because they wanted to destroy the german armyes and because they were loosing a lot more civilians every day as a result of the genocidal doctrines of the german wermacht ! Especialy in the areas were you had SS troops stationed .

[Snail]

Snail was there a point for the post? What's with all the hostile attitude. At least that what it looks to me.

That's why I came to my senses and deleted the message.

[aldo_14]

Look i'm was just pointing out that such radical groups have showed theyr face not once but 2 times already and i believe this is not the last rebelion we have at hand in the GTVA especialy now with the destruction of capella and most of the GTVA warfleet masacred by the shivans and NTF.

Right, because people have never rebelled against an oppressive (it'd have to be to get awat with it) government that sends them off to die in futile, badly managed wars.

Mi point was that the GTVA would of made sure to avoid such further actions by endorsing an iron fist polici . Also when you are bataling a war with someone like the NTF who take no shame or remourse from killing civilians terran or vasudan i believe that you can push the limits of morality and sanaty of your decisions as well without sufering much protest from the civilian population. couple that with a good propaganda mahine and i can bet you would get away with masacring half your fleets as the result of you braking the front lines of the war.

Are you talking about using the same tactics as the NTF, or just pissing away your entire economy on increasingly stupid human wave-style attacks?

Also you said that this would be insane that it would result in devastating casualties for the GTVA. Then I ask you this how many civilians lost theyr lives especialy vasudan civilians in the 18 months of the war?? I can bet that a lot more lives were lost as the result of the genocide enforced by the NTF.

No matter how many lives you would loose as a result of you bloody tactics they can never be equal to the lives lost as the result of genocide at the hands of the NTF.

What don't you understand here?  The GTVA cannot let tens of thousands of people get slaughtered by the NTF because all it will do is a) make the people cry out for a settlement and b) strengthen the NTFs image.  How many Terran ships would defect to the NTF rather than be massacred in idiotic assaults on entrenched positions, human wave attacks straight into enemy guns?

So this was the main basis of mi arguement ! When you consider the number of lives lost I believe it is better to lose more milatary and save a lot of civilians then the other way around. If let us say the GTVA would of engaged the NTF at full force then i believe that they could of won the wor in a metter of a 1 month or 2 . Altough that would of resulted in high casualties rates they would of spared a lot of lives as well.

Don't be silly.  you're actually advocating throwing every ship in the GTVA into an ambush?  If anything, the first few months of the war was when the NTF was strongest - when they could bottle themselve up and secure the defensible systems before Bosch launched attacks into Vasudan space for his own secre aims.

Russia lost all those men because they weer poorly equiped and trained and poorly led. In fact if they would of been more capable officers i believe that the situation would of been a lot better.

Also let us not forget that by 1942 and 43 the russians did not really care about casualties simply because they wanted to destroy the german armyes and because they were loosing a lot more civilians every day as a result of the genocidal doctrines of the german wermacht ! Especialy in the areas were you had SS troops stationed .

So, what you're saying is the GTVA should have a leader like Stalin. Because, y'know, the reason the Russians lost their officers (and why they could throw thousands - millions - of conscripts into suicide attacks) was a climate of fear and oppression caused by Stalins' purges.  So what you want is an oppressive dictator who subverts the democratic process in order to piss away tens of thousands of lives to more quickly win a war.

The NTF could not 'defeat' the GTVA - but as the failure debriefings show, it could force them into a concessionary peace treaty through attrition.  The only way to stop the effect of attrition would be turn the GTVA into something worse than the NTF, something insidious that has no fear of forcing millions of men and women to their deaths and oppressing the inevitable complaints.

[S-99]

Hmmm. I was just thinking about something. Thinking in areas of the fenris and leviathen cruisers. The fenris is faster, weaker, and a striker cruiser. The leviathen is slow, stronger, and a good cruiser for defending or opposing (its weapons are so much better than the fenrises).

Then comes the gtva's maneuver to replace cruisers with corvettes. Along with the deimos standard terran corvette, why not make  a maneuver similar to the fenris cruiser design only to corvettes. A strong corvette that's slow, and a weak corvette that's fast and not so weaponed up.
Ironically the iceni balance versus the deimos balance is something laughable. The iceni is bigger, more powerful weapons, and it's faster than the deimos, but it has no AAA at all. The deimos is like 300m shorter, not as durable, it's got less powerful weapons, but at least it's got some nice AAA.
Anyway this is possibly my most informative or retarded post of the day.
I don't know if the gtva would want to make a stronger slower corvette and make the existing deimos the lite version.