[[DW]-Hunter]

The NTF might be smaller, but it has less ground to cover.  And in FS we never really see a blockade run, only the consequences.

Yeah, you never get to see the NTF kickin' ass in the campaign like they tell you in the command briefings what the GTVA has lost.

[aldo_14]

The NTF might be smaller, but it has less ground to cover.  And in FS we never really see a blockade run, only the consequences.

Yeah, you never get to see the NTF kickin' ass in the campaign like they tell you in the command briefings what the GTVA has lost.

Doubly so for the Shivans, too.  It's pretty clear, IMO, that what Volition wanted to show was constrained by making the game playable and fitting in with hardware - no doubt it'd be more 'realistic' to show Battle of Endor type scenarios, but utterly unplayable too.

[AlphaOne]

Well i do not actualy have a star map at mi dispoisal right now but i was wondering what if the GTVA would mass most of its fleet on the 3 or so nodes heading for the NTF and viceversa and start a massive campaign of atrition with the NTF !

I mean i have serious dounths that the NTF can split it forces 3 ways or something like that and mount any serious defence force. They would just be crushed by the sheer numbers of bommber fighters and warships the GTVA has assembled.

At least that is what i figure would happen. Feel free to corect me!

[aldo_14]

Well i do not actualy have a star map at mi dispoisal right now but i was wondering what if the GTVA would mass most of its fleet on the 3 or so nodes heading for the NTF and viceversa and start a massive campaign of atrition with the NTF !

I mean i have serious dounths that the NTF can split it forces 3 ways or something like that and mount any serious defence force. They would just be crushed by the sheer numbers of bommber fighters and warships the GTVA has assembled.

At least that is what i figure would happen. Feel free to corect me!

The GTVA would rapidly lose as a consequence of growing political pressure to end the wasteful and costly tactic of attrition, combined with a likely outcry from the inhabitants of those systems which were 'abandoned' by the fleet leaving to throw itself into the barrels of the NTF.  The NTF is already shown to be capable of splitting its forces up and taking the offensive (by contesting multiple systems) in the command briefings, it's scarcely a long step to imagine them retreating to a holding position.

[Vasudan Commander]

This reminds me of a great movie quote:

"Send out the archers..."
"But Sir, we'll hit our won troops!"
"So? We have reserves, they don't... Fire."

or something like that...

Wich movie is that?

Braveheart. Followed the story of William Wallace and the fight against the english.

[AlphaOne]

Well the way i see it the NTF manages most of its so called victories through speed and surprise. They do not have any real victory over the GTVA ! I mean sure the GTVA lost a few battles but so did the NTF every time they wanted to comence a...muscle contest with the GTVA . The GTVA is almost alway asiningn warships and fighter bommber squadrons to guard convois and stuff like that form the hit and run tactics of the NTF. I stand off the NTF would be eaten alive by the GTVA. The GTVA has the superior number and the superior warships at its disposal. What the GTVA does not have is a powerfull enough driving force behind them.

I mean most of the time we get debriefings on the outcome of lost battles by the GTVA there are mostly about GTD or GTCv or GTC  there are not so many GVD etc.

I mean the vasudans seem to want to fight this war and win it a lot more then the terrans and are generaly more determined .

Also they ahve some better warships.

Also by what we have seen by the NTF with regards to them splitting up their forces can be better called reasining of available forces. I mean there are a few instances where the NTF takes warships from other theaters of operations of from other missions just to bail out some of theyr own ships which are cornered of face serious GTVA forces. The same can be said for the GTVa but at leats there you actualy know where most of those warships are and why the odds when it comes to cap ship battles are most of the time even between the 2 forces.

Mi belief is that if the GTVA woul of pulled out at least half of theyr forces from escort guarding duties and put them towards front line action then the war would of been a lot harder for the NTF.

Of course that would of meant some more casualties in terms of civilians but then again some risks are necesary in order to ensure the safewty of the masses.

Also did any of you notice that vasudan warships generaly have more kills then theyr terran counterparts. Well most of the time i think the Deimos has more kills in general then the Sobek.

[Polpolion]

The NTF is stupid cattle.

HA!!! Thats canon, too!!

[aldo_14]

Well the way i see it the NTF manages most of its so called victories through speed and surprise. They do not have any real victory over the GTVA ! I mean sure the GTVA lost a few battles but so did the NTF every time they wanted to comence a...muscle contest with the GTVA . The GTVA is almost alway asiningn warships and fighter bommber squadrons to guard convois and stuff like that form the hit and run tactics of the NTF. I stand off the NTF would be eaten alive by the GTVA. The GTVA has the superior number and the superior warships at its disposal. What the GTVA does not have is a powerfull enough driving force behind them.

I mean most of the time we get debriefings on the outcome of lost battles by the GTVA there are mostly about GTD or GTCv or GTC  there are not so many GVD etc.

I mean the vasudans seem to want to fight this war and win it a lot more then the terrans and are generaly more determined .

Or, the rebellion of a xenophobic Terran fleet is seen -politically- as best handled by Terrans, and falls within the Terran sphere of influence.

Also they ahve some better warships.

Also by what we have seen by the NTF with regards to them splitting up their forces can be better called reasining of available forces. I mean there are a few instances where the NTF takes warships from other theaters of operations of from other missions just to bail out some of theyr own ships which are cornered of face serious GTVA forces. The same can be said for the GTVa but at leats there you actualy know where most of those warships are and why the odds when it comes to cap ship battles are most of the time even between the 2 forces.

I'm afraid I couldn't understand a word of that.  What's your point?

Mi belief is that if the GTVA woul of pulled out at least half of theyr forces from escort guarding duties and put them towards front line action then the war would of been a lot harder for the NTF.

Of course that would of meant some more casualties in terms of civilians but then again some risks are necesary in order to ensure the safewty of the masses.

The masses tend to get pissed off at that; and it's the masses who control the politicians and the military.  In case you've forgotten, the NTF were massacring Vasudans; what sort of impact do you think it'd have on the Terra-Vasudan Alliance if Command decided "let the Vasudan civillians fend for themselves, they're not worth our effort to defend"?  How would that help in stopping mutual distrust and suspicion between species?

Also did any of you notice that vasudan warships generaly have more kills then theyr terran counterparts. Well most of the time i think the Deimos has more kills in general then the Sobek.

Ummmm, isn't that a direct contradiction?  What about fighter/bomber kills?  Plus, who has most ships deployed in combat?

[AlphaOne]

Well i would have to say that terrans have more ships pe total but if we are talking specific ships i must say vasudans seems to send out Sobek corvettes the same way terrans send fighter wings.


Also mi previous point was that while the GTVA has some reserves limited because of theyr extensive escort duties the GTVA actualy has some reserves. But the same can not be said about the NTF. A corect phrase in regards to the the NTF reinforcement would be to say thet theyr have no real reinforcements they just have a very rapid redlepoiment of forces tactic.

Another point is that in a stand off between the GTVA and the NTF the NTF would be eaten alive because no matter hom small the reinforcements of the GTA mai be they are huge compared to the none available for the NTF.

In regards to the civilians .....well.......sometimes a good dictatorship can get the things through

Also if the vasudans want theyr precious cargo so badly then they shouyld just asigne more god damn capships. I mean the terrans have like what 3\4 of theyr fleets engaged in the war with the NTF? From all we know the vasudans have just 2 fleets.

Also i believe terrans should just scrap theyr destroyer manufacturing program and buy them from the fish guis since vasudan destroyers like the Hatsheepsut are more suited for prelonged comb at.

[aldo_14]

Well i would have to say that terrans have more ships pe total but if we are talking specific ships i must say vasudans seems to send out Sobek corvettes the same way terrans send fighter wings.

What makes you think that?

Also mi previous point was that while the GTVA has some reserves limited because of theyr extensive escort duties the GTVA actualy has some reserves. But the same can not be said about the NTF. A corect phrase in regards to the the NTF reinforcement would be to say thet theyr have no real reinforcements they just have a very rapid redlepoiment of forces tactic.

What makes you think...er, to repeat myself.... that?  Reinforcements are the number of 'unused' ships that can be pushed onto the battlefield; I'm not sure what evidence is there that indicates the NTF do not have a reserve, especially considering the smaller territory they need to hold.  (bearing in mind that, if you disregard Boschs' secret motives, the NTF only needed to hold a core of 3 or 4 systems and force a stalemate to achieve their aims)

Another point is that in a stand off between the GTVA and the NTF the NTF would be eaten alive because no matter hom small the reinforcements of the GTA mai be they are huge compared to the none available for the NTF.

Eaten alive?

Again, I'd like your basis for the assumption that the NTF a) has no reserve forces and b) no production capacity.  Particularly given that a standoff would involve a siege against a well-prepared defense with the 'high ground', where there would be distinct possibility that NTF losses would be proportionally less than the GTVAs (and thus perhaps could be considered more replaceable).

In regards to the civilians .....well.......sometimes a good dictatorship can get the things through

It's not a dictatorship, so I presume you concede my point?

Also if the vasudans want theyr precious cargo so badly then they shouyld just asigne more god damn capships. I mean the terrans have like what 3\4 of theyr fleets engaged in the war with the NTF? From all we know the vasudans have just 2 fleets.

Unfortunately, you can't just magic up capital ships in a war from nowhere.  Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Vasudans needed to be evacuated.  There was system(s) wide conflict.  It's a tremendous waste of resources to assign even a cruiser to every little convoy of 2 or 3 ships.

Also i believe terrans should just scrap theyr destroyer manufacturing program and buy them from the fish guis since vasudan destroyers like the Hatsheepsut are more suited for prelonged comb at.

Comb at?  I always thought Petrarch was bald.......

(sorry )

That's arguably true, except that the Hatshepsut and Hecate aren't necessarily intended for the same purpose; the Hecate has always appeared more of a C&C carrier than the Hatshepsut, and it's pretty strongly arguable IMO that the two complement each others' roles in the fleet.  If we presume that the armament of the Hatshepsut  required a reduction of fighter capacity to compensate, then it'd be simply folly to remove the Hecate.

Of course, it's also worth noting the likelihood that Vasudan ships aren't the most comfortable for Terrans - and also the political difficulties of relying upon an alien species (even an ally) for your key defensive vessels.

[Snail]

How did this thread become so large?

[aldo_14]

How did this thread become so large?

Work related boredom.

[S-99]

Well the ntf did capture a couple of shipyards if not only one, that was how bosch built the iceni. Whether or not they built other ships could be debatable, but almost assured, you have a captured ship yard, you can produce ships, why not produce ships for your small diversion, it would only help to keep boschs project diverted from main attention by having more ships to do more stuff with.

Now this is starting to remind me why gtva didn't build another hades destroyer. Instead of building another hades, build a colossus and people think it may be rumor of building another hades. Why not build another iceni? I'm sure the specs for that ship were captured by the gtva. All information on that ship was obvious and known, except for what it's actual intention was. Didn't mean to go off topic, but talk about a good ship to reproduce that isn't costly colossus or must-acquire-and-integrate shivan technology hades. Iceni frigate class of ship proven, reliable, effective, even elusive...and blockade runner.

[AlphaOne]

well the iceni class of warships is great aginst other warships but when you add fighters and bommber into the equations then they are not so good. If iceni class warships would have some better aaaf defences then they would prove to be a super warship. they can clearely pose a grave threat to even destroyers.

[aldo_14]

The Iceni isn't really a combat warship; it's a very special purpose warship (at least, appearances suggest IMO), designed to run and hide from enemy ships whilst serving a secondary function of providing C & C - and I doubt the former strength is much use to the GTVA when it's likely to be fighting a defensive war if the Shivans return.

 It's unlikely, IMO, you could just bang on some AAAf or flak defenses without compromising the strengths of the ships, anyways.

[S-99]

It'd give the gtva something else to venture into. I mean they already successfully replaced cruisers with corvetters, and as far as effective ship designs go, the iceni did what it was intended for perfectly. If the gtva ever need a ship like that, they know where to turn to.

[AlphaOne]

The shivans to get bosch back and help them improve the iceni???

Or the NTF?

Regardeless the iceni in mi opinion was a superb warship. And i do not believe adding on 2 more flack and 1 aaaf beam and maibe 2 aditional laser turrets on top of the ones it has will weaken the iceni that much.

[[DW]-Hunter]

I dont know what you guys are talking about, but ive seen the iceni just rape other cruisers and stuff.

[Snail]

Seen it rape fighters?

[AlphaOne]

Good point! The Iceni is the perfect example of a warship built for speed and firepower against other warships. A job well done by the Iceni. However in an era where fighter and bommbers can take out a warship faster then you can eat a hot dog aaaf defences is a must.

The Iceni can take on and defeat even destroyer class warships. We have already seen that corvettes do not pose such a serious threat to it or cruisers(the latter are as useless agains the iceni as an interceptor when tryng to take out a sathanas) !

With some modifications i believe that the Iceni would become a superb warship one wich could even the scale somewhat between the huge numbers of corvettes an cruisers that the shivans have and the GTVA !

Perhaps enlarging the Iceni by lets say 20% overall adding some aaaf defences and replace its reactors and powergrid with vasudan built ones which we all know are more advanced then terran ones would ensure that the Iceni keeps a high top speed and its huge fiorepower and the aaaf defences with ease.

IMO Iceni class frigates should be put into mass production as soon as posible. Its cheaper then a destroyer to buld they are faster and easier to maintain and resuply . They would make sure that the GTVa has a powerfull presence everywhere just in case its needed till the full fleet is rebuilt.