Hard Light Productions Forums
Site Management => Site Support / Feedback => Topic started by: colecampbell666 on May 29, 2008, 01:48:12 pm
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This site is not newb-friendly. There is nothing on the front page, and you have to snake through the maze of forums to find FSO downloads. We need more user-friendliness. Possibly a "GET FSO!!!!1!1!" link on the front page, a "Downloads" page with MVPs, .EXEs, and some recent builds, etc. in a non-confusing manner. (and actually explained)
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I agree... :)
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The log-in section is also pretty small. I don't really notice it and usually hammer "Forums" and get redirected to the log-in page. And the Forums button is pretty small and unnoticable... the whole top tab, actually.
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Suggestions, FAQs, things about HLP and FS3 related discussions...
:yes:
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And warnings about mentioning FS3.
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Not really, no one cares anymore.
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.... True.
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FS3 related discussions...
:yes:
:no:
It would just turn into a major flame war, which would repeat itself in various formats over and over every few months, the mods have better things to do than stop arguments over whether the plot-line would go one way or another, or which campaign is most 'like how you imagined Freespace 3'. It isn't important and it really isn't relevant unless an actual Freespace 3 looks like a real possibility.
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I'm sure most if not all admins agree. As a matter of fact, they have been working on something since October that should remedy these complaints.
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Pretty much all this site actually does, is be a big forum. If a newb can't find a register button or whatever it is, then he probably shouldn't be here. On top of that, there are two entire boards devoted FSU and FSO. Then there are the myriad stickied "wth do i do" threads in the numerous boards. The only thing that I could possibly see being even remotely necessary is an HLP FAQ or something.
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http://tremulous.net <=- they has a big forum, too - tremulous.net/forums . However, their main page has... ah, download links, etc, etc. But the admins are working on it? Well, patience, then, I guess.
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Well, patience, then, I guess.
Yup.
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Pretty much all this site actually does, is be a big forum. If a newb can't find a register button or whatever it is, then he probably shouldn't be here. On top of that, there are two entire boards devoted FSU and FSO. Then there are the myriad stickied "wth do i do" threads in the numerous boards. The only thing that I could possibly see being even remotely necessary is an HLP FAQ or something.
So that's all HLP really is in the end? Just a big forum for people to scream at each other with?
Kinda defeats the purpose of helping with the SCP then, IMO.
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I'm sure most if not all admins agree. As a matter of fact, they have been working on something since October that should remedy these complaints.
That`s good. I mean I understand what the topic creator was talking about. Recently I came here again for the first time in a few years and it took me some time to find the boards. @_@
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Lets just be patient. I'm sure the mods have already realised how noob-unfriendly the site is. They're probably working on a solution.
For now we can just list what we don't like about the current site, and the mods can use it as a checklist of sorts
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So that's all HLP really is in the end? Just a big forum for people to scream at each other with?
Kinda defeats the purpose of helping with the SCP then, IMO.
To quote Flipside(?):
FS2 and the SCP first, yelling and throwing bananas at each other second.
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It would just turn into a major flame war, which would repeat itself in various formats over and over every few months, the mods have better things to do than stop arguments over whether the plot-line would go one way or another, or which campaign is most 'like how you imagined Freespace 3'. It isn't important and it really isn't relevant unless an actual Freespace 3 looks like a real possibility.
:doubt:
I was meaning things about Karajorma's FAQ section about FS3 that explains better than anything else how the community reacts to certain threads.
I'd like to see an introduction to HLP, a guide explaining how the boards are sort and what they're here for, the answer to many questions like "Who is Derek Smart?" and "What's the SCP?", how to install FSO and use mods, something about FRED and custom campaigns, total conversion and MOD teams...
Basically things you learn by staying here.
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I'm sure most if not all admins agree. As a matter of fact, they have been working on something since October that should remedy these complaints.
Yes, we are fabulous.
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It would just turn into a major flame war, which would repeat itself in various formats over and over every few months, the mods have better things to do than stop arguments over whether the plot-line would go one way or another, or which campaign is most 'like how you imagined Freespace 3'. It isn't important and it really isn't relevant unless an actual Freespace 3 looks like a real possibility.
I'd like to see an introduction to HLP, a guide explaining how the boards are sort and what they're here for, the answer to many questions like "Who is Derek Smart?" and "What's the SCP?", how to install FSO and use mods, something about FRED and custom campaigns, total conversion and MOD teams...
I've said it before and I'll say it again: FSO has two boards devoted to it. The SCP and FSU. The most you need is a thread saying what it is in each board, maybe with a few links to other threads containing useful information. Then I suppose you could make an HLP FAQ to answer misc community questions such as "wtf r a anon accident?" and whatnot.
Personally, all I think we really need is a bigger link to Kara's Freespace FAQ. I might even go as far to ask Kara if he could to integrate the FAQ into HLP (well maybe not totally, but perhaps go further into detail about each community). Not too much sense in having all of this redundant information floating around.
I remember I learned all about FS from Kara's FS FAQ, or at least when I remembered how to spell "karajorma". Kara's FAQ is an excellent site for newbies to FS, there's no sense in making another HLP-specific one. That's the main reason why I think we should either ask Kara to further connect his FAQ to us, or to make another huge link to his FAQ here and make an HLP history page.
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Sorry, thesizzler, but I've helped more than a dozen newbs get FSOpen from this site.
Many of them were experienced gamers and expert computer users. Not one managed to find Turey's Installer or Kara's FAQ on his/her own before expressing at least some degree of frustration. All of them needed directions from me. The layout here is, as they've said: 'disorienting', 'awful', 'totally disorganized.' It 'fails every test of user-friendliness I can imagine.' One girl asked 'Are they trying to screen me out of their userbase?'
There really needs to be a large link to Turey's Installer right at the top of the front page. No menus, no list of options, just one reliable source.
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I tend to agree with that. :yes:
But I'd go further and suggest that we have a "Released Project Downloads" bar at the top with links to Turey's installer and all the released TCs. Sort of like the highlights but more permanent.
Personally, all I think we really need is a bigger link to Kara's Freespace FAQ. I might even go as far to ask Kara if he could to integrate the FAQ into HLP (well maybe not totally, but perhaps go further into detail about each community). Not too much sense in having all of this redundant information floating around.
I remember I learned all about FS from Kara's FS FAQ, or at least when I remembered how to spell "karajorma". Kara's FAQ is an excellent site for newbies to FS, there's no sense in making another HLP-specific one. That's the main reason why I think we should either ask Kara to further connect his FAQ to us, or to make another huge link to his FAQ here and make an HLP history page.
I've already said that anyone who wants to is welcome to port the entire FAQ to the wiki or anywhere else it would be suitably maintained. If it's somewhere I can access it I'll even update it from time to time myself. :)
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I've already said that anyone who wants to is welcome to port the entire FAQ to the wiki or anywhere else it would be suitably maintained. If it's somewhere I can access it I'll even update it from time to time myself. :)
....I started to. Someone care to light a fire under my butt so I can finish it? :nervous:
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I've already said that anyone who wants to is welcome to port the entire FAQ to the wiki or anywhere else it would be suitably maintained. If it's somewhere I can access it I'll even update it from time to time myself. :)
....I started to. Someone care to light a fire under my butt so I can finish it? :nervous:
*lights fire under your butt*
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We already have the FreeSpace Wiki, which is nearly equivalent to the Karajorma FAQ, and even superior to it in some areas. And that's linked up at the top in the navbar. In fact...
...there we go. Now Turey's installer is linked in the top bar as well.
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...there we go. Now Turey's installer is linked in the top bar as well.
This really surprised me when I saw it. I was going for the wiki link and "Holy Sh-!"
I must say it's a good idea though.
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Ya.
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Sorry, thesizzler, but I've helped more than a dozen newbs get FSOpen from this site.
Many of them were experienced gamers and expert computer users. Not one managed to find Turey's Installer or Kara's FAQ on his/her own before expressing at least some degree of frustration. All of them needed directions from me. The layout here is, as they've said: 'disorienting', 'awful', 'totally disorganized.' It 'fails every test of user-friendliness I can imagine.' One girl asked 'Are they trying to screen me out of their userbase?'
There really needs to be a large link to Turey's Installer right at the top of the front page. No menus, no list of options, just one reliable source.
I can't really argue with that, I guess; you're right.
TBH, though, I just can't fathom how people are confused by the layout of this site. I mean, if newbs are all confused and running into walls around the place and they're intelligent people, it's obvious we have a problem, but... I just don't see how it's confusing. I was never really all that confused with what went where when I was newb. :nervous:
If we are going to do something, I'd suggest doing something with that top bar with the links. Right now, that bar is a really tiny thing and kinda hard to notice. I'd say change that to a side bar on the main page with a small description under every link. I'd be willing to try and dissect Kara's faq and transport/transform it into a newb faq on the wiki, but the admins would also need to make it very clear that there's a good source of information there. And by very clear, I don't mean just a stickied thread or highlight, perhaps a specific pointer on the wiki description on the afore mentioned sidebar.
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I agree. It's hard to fathom how it's confusing -- but I think part of it might be that people just have little patience for doing things that they want to be very easy and straightforward.
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The fact that THIS (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,47045.0.html) isn't stickied should be a cause of concern. It'd get rid of the n00bs not being able to find OAL.
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The fact that THIS (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,47045.0.html) isn't stickied should be a cause of concern. It'd get rid of the n00bs not being able to find OAL.
That is a walkthrough for an installer. Both on their own are great in their own right, but their purpose is generally to obviate the necessity of the other. In all honesty, we don't need that.
And BTW, I haven't seen an Open AL problem in a while. Well, I guess it's not like I've been looking.
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There have been very few.
Turey's gone A and B the C of D and told people to download it in the Installer.
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The fact that THIS (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,47045.0.html) isn't stickied should be a cause of concern. It'd get rid of the n00bs not being able to find OAL.
That is a walkthrough for an installer. Both on their own are great in their own right, but their purpose is generally to obviate the necessity of the other. In all honesty, we don't need that.
And BTW, I haven't seen an Open AL problem in a while. Well, I guess it's not like I've been looking.
I've actually tried to get people I know to get FSO, and they've ALL given up because they couldn't get it to run. I pointed them to Open AL and they refused to DL it because they think I'm ****ting them or something, in addition to being pissed that they "wasted" 6 hours downloading it.
If I could point them to something that tells them clear as day, since whenever I explain it on MSN, they think its like way to complicated, even with the installer. If only had I pointed that thread to them, that wouldn't have happened...
I don't see how a walkthrough for the installer (which doesn't handle absolutely everything) should not exist. It'd sure help in explaining what everything is.
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All I do is make them plug in their hard drive, and i transfer it over, along with the openAL installer.
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The fact that THIS (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,47045.0.html) isn't stickied should be a cause of concern. It'd get rid of the n00bs not being able to find OAL.
That is a walkthrough for an installer. Both on their own are great in their own right, but their purpose is generally to obviate the necessity of the other. In all honesty, we don't need that.
And BTW, I haven't seen an Open AL problem in a while. Well, I guess it's not like I've been looking.
I've actually tried to get people I know to get FSO, and they've ALL given up because they couldn't get it to run. I pointed them to Open AL and they refused to DL it because they think I'm ****ting them or something, in addition to being pissed that they "wasted" 6 hours downloading it.
If I could point them to something that tells them clear as day, since whenever I explain it on MSN, they think its like way to complicated, even with the installer. If only had I pointed that thread to them, that wouldn't have happened...
I don't see how a walkthrough for the installer (which doesn't handle absolutely everything) should not exist. It'd sure help in explaining what everything is.
If they had followed the directions in the installer, then it's not complicated. What you're talking about with OAL is a failure of trust, not the installer being too complicated.
If people need a walkthrough for an installer, then - sorry turey - the installer needs to be re-made.
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Yea, but how many people actually read installers instead of clicking next-next-next-next-next...
The installer should detect if the comp has OAL and get it automatically (like modern games do with DirectX).
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Yea, but how many people actually read installers instead of clicking next-next-next-next-next...
If they don't read the installers then **** them. If they're not willing to even try to understand on their own, then I'm not willing to help them.
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thesizzler, I think you're being a bit hasty.
I know I'm an intelligent person. I click-click-click like everyone else, because almost every installer I've used is designed to reward that process. I'm conditioned.
Streamlining Turey's Installer isn't that hard, and it'll pay off for a lot of people. If I hadn't spent hours on this forum, I'd have no idea what a lot of the items on the installer mean, even with the helpful tooltips.
Even though we're on the Internet, we should still try to be nice guys.
EDITED: to not call thesizzler a jerk. I'm sorry, that was too harsh.
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I think thesizzler's being perfectly reasonable, even if I wouldn't use that language. We need a sign that says "you must be this intelligent to ride on HLP", or something. Otherwise we end up with people like TrashMan.
More seriously, we're under no obligation to provide people with instant gratification on a silver platter. We have an installer, and we have multiple FAQs. And we have the forum itself. Between those resources, and Google, the responsible forumite should be able to figure out whatever he needs to know.
I'm not adverse to answering people's questions, or making things user friendly. There's a lot of common-sense solutions we could implement, like putting the installer on the top bar. But I'm not in favor of hand-holding ad absurdum.
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Do we actually want people to play the game, though? I'm not willing to commit to reading several FAQs, searching google, and searching forums in order to be able to install one game. At that point, I'm going to decide that whoever is doing the game doesn't have their act together, and I'm not going to have anybody to play with. If I don't quit, I'm going to seriously question if I want to spend that much time on it - unless it has something I really want, I'm not going to keep on going.
Yeah, it's selfish, but I've learned that as a rule of thumb it's correct (mostly from experience with Linux). Something that's well-polished, that won't cause trouble for its users, has an easy-to-use install process. Something that isn't has you do anything from a generic installer with glaring faults to build the whole program, and then have a half-dozen config files you need to modify afterwards, and then it crashes all the time and has allergies to something else on the system, etc etc.
Most people don't even have that experience, and so they're not even going to be able to get past things not working in an extremely straightforward manner. If they're a gamer, they're not necessarily a programmer or even a very good computer user. The point of the installer is to get an audience for the people that are not going to need the hand-holding, and maybe rope in a few people who get interested enough to take a few steps on their own.
I would say (off-the-cuff) that the installer shouldn't need to take anything more than a little bit of hardware advice and it should be able to install Freespace 2. Just click-click-click. The default directory can be set to C:\Program Files\Freespace2, like everything else, or (probably better) it can default to the directory pointed to by the FS2 uninstall string in the registry, if it exists. The default installed items can be FS2_Open, FRED, Launcher, MediaVPs, and maybe Derelict or something else that's good and doesn't cause a lot of extra download time.
The technology is there to do all this autodetection better than most users are capable of. The point of writing an installer is to make things easier for people, not to serve as some screener for people to join our boys-only club.
Now once somebody gets on the forums and starts whining about modding tables, then they get sent to the FAQs.
It would be nice to have some more passionate creative types around here, but nobody's going to commit to a game with a development team that intentionally goes out of its way to exclude certain types of people from ever playing it, especially as niche a game as Freespace 2, because there's no gain in it for them. They might as well go and make a mod for Half Life 2, even if they have to do extra work to get a Freespace environment, Valve will be sure to ensure that it's as easy as possible to get things running, and they'll have a massive number of people who are guaranteed to already have the game to play their mod.
So in summary, bigger audience => more incentive to invest time/effort => more intelligent/committed people.
Compare the influx of coders/scripters prior to the installer and the big TCs to the period of time where the big TCs and installer made releases. You had to be a genius prior to that to figure out how to install things, or spend several hours on it, and we didn't get very many new people with skills at all. Now, we've got at least 5 coders who have contributed something through BtRL, and at least one scripter who claims there isn't enough for him to keep busy.
EDIT: That turned out into a little more of a soapbox than I intended.
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Seconded. I too think we need more experienced coders etc (perhaps we can finally get ST:R then).
Turey's installer should indeed be a bit more streamlined (perhaps it should install OpenAL as well?) For example, for me, it took me several hours to download everything and then I noticed it didn't work. I only got FSO running a year after :mad2:
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So in summary, bigger audience => more incentive to invest time/effort => more intelligent/committed people.
Bigger audience? The Halo community has the largest possible audience and they're a bunch of douchebags.
But the rest makes sense.
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So in summary, bigger audience => more incentive to invest time/effort => more intelligent/committed people.
Bigger audience? The Halo community has the largest possible audience and they're a bunch of douchebags.
But the rest makes sense.
Yeah, that they are (most of them). But you'd still get some of the bright ones.
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even the bright ones i met couldnt right properley
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The brightest ones probably couldn't be bothered with trying to help an immature community.
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even the bright ones i met couldnt right properley
:lol: I think that a title is in order.
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even the bright ones i met couldnt right properley
:lol: I think that a title is in order.
itw as 1nt3nt1on4l i g3ss i shud h4v3 m4d3 1t m0r3 0bviou5.
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Yes I think you should of. :)
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So in summary, bigger audience => more incentive to invest time/effort => more intelligent/committed people.
Bigger audience? The Halo community has the largest possible audience and they're a bunch of douchebags.
But the rest makes sense.
In our defense (as a halo.bungie.org member), I think the proportion of douchebags to mature folk is the same as in other communities. It's just that there are so many more douchebags, because the population is larger. But the mature elements of the Halo community are perfectly sane and reasonable places, every bit as much as HLP (and the fiction analysis is often a bit more cooperative, too.)
Anyway, that's off topic. I apologize -- let's not get derailed.
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And this isn't off topic? (what we've been posting)
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In our defense (as a halo.bungie.org member), I think the proportion of douchebags to mature folk is the same as in other communities. It's just that there are so many more douchebags, because the population is larger. But the mature elements of the Halo community are perfectly sane and reasonable places, every bit as much as HLP (and the fiction analysis is often a bit more cooperative, too.)
I admit that I did see a few cool (and more importantly intelligent) guys over there, but most of them were like me but unable to write coherently.
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In our defense (as a halo.bungie.org member), I think the proportion of douchebags to mature folk is the same as in other communities. It's just that there are so many more douchebags, because the population is larger. But the mature elements of the Halo community are perfectly sane and reasonable places, every bit as much as HLP (and the fiction analysis is often a bit more cooperative, too.)
I admit that I did see a few cool (and more importantly intelligent) guys over there, but most of them were like me but unable to write coherently.
They where Pompous gits?
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No, they were p0mpUs g1t5.
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No, they were p0mpUs g1t5.
Oooooh okay I see.
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As opposed to people who pick out a single statement from a long and insightful comment and then thread hijack to talk about that?
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You know what, I've been visiting this page for seven, possibly eight million years. Right now, if I wanted to update the SCP upgraded version of FS2 I have on my machine, I wouldn't have a clue where to start. I make an educated guess of course, but the idea of having to spend hours trawling through the forums trying to figure out exactly what I need these days and more complexly which version of what I makes me want to fire up Dawn of War and play that instead. Which is a shame because I love Freespace and would really like to play the latest shiniest stable version. :(
So thanks to colecampbell for bringing this up, but maybe the title of this thread should be read as a new attitude towards user friendliness, rather than friendliness towards new users. Since veteran users are often in the same boat. That boat is sailing in the dark without a compass.
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As opposed to people who pick out a single statement from a long and insightful comment and then thread hijack to talk about that?
If that was directed at me, I apologize.
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Actually you tried to re-rail the topic after saying your piece so you're about the only one I wasn't complaining about. :D
IP, I tend to agree with you. I doubt I'd know how to get hold of FS2 if I weren't so connected with the game myself.
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To all the people complaining: I'd just like to point out that you should compare how difficult it is now to how difficult it was pre-2007.
I seriously doubt that I'm ever going to touch the Installer's source code again. There's a couple of reasons for this:
1. It does what it was meant to do: significantly reduce difficulty of installation. There's no point in fixing something that's not broken.
2. That code is ugly. I was just learning Java at the time, so there's a lot of shortcuts that I didn't know about. If I were to write the whole thing from scratch today, I could probably do it in half the lines and twice the readability.
3. I'd gain nothing from updating it. The first time around, it was a wonderful learning experience, but I've already done it once, there's almost nothing to learn from doing it a second time.
That said, I do see some merit in a bare-bones, idiot-proof FSO installer. Perhaps I or someone else could throw one together. If anyone wants to attempt it, I'd happily lend my extensive knowledge of FSO installation to their cause.
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Actually you tried to re-rail the topic after saying your piece so you're about the only one I wasn't complaining about. :D
It was me, wasn't it? :sigh:
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Actually you tried to re-rail the topic after saying your piece so you're about the only one I wasn't complaining about. :D
It was me, wasn't it? :sigh:
It is now.
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With all due respect to the users who have had trouble installing the SCP, or even finding out where they had to go to do so, I feel that some responsibility should still lie with the end-user in terms of understanding what they're getting themselves into. Or, to put it in somewhat more of the vernacular: lurk moar.
Now, if you'll allow me a sentence or two of tangent before you jump all over me, maybe I can explain my position. Back when I started regularly visiting my first forum, I was too socially awkward and frightened to do so much as create an account, much less start posting there myself. In retrospect, I'm infinitely glad that I was, since it created the habits that I've successfully employed since then when visiting any new online community. I don't jump right into things. I poke around first, getting the lay of the land. I skim through any FAQs or stickied posts/threads that may exist. It's only after I feel like I have a handle on how things work that I enter into the community. The same strategy applies when using any new program or modification, including the SCP. Anyone who goes rushing headlong into a new piece of software without having even the slightest idea of what they're looking for is just asking for trouble.
Back when I first visited HLP, there was no convenient Installer, and I had only the slightest notion of what the SCP was. Said SCP was in a pretty rough state at the time; the official 3.6.7 build was one of the most crash-happy executables you'd ever see, and it was an utter crap shoot as to what recent build (usually one of taylor's) was stable enough to allow you to play the game for more than one mission in a row. The whole affair was incredibly intimidating to me as a newbie; I had no real idea of how the builds, the launcher, and these weird "media_vps" interacted, even after reading the current walkthrough at the time (and this isn't even getting into all of the loosely-scattered models and effects floating around at the time). But did I rush in headlong anyway? No. I waited, and I read, and I gradually came to an understanding as to how things worked. And when I thought I had a good enough handle on things, I went about downloading a build and the current VP set, and I eventually managed to get everything working (at least until said build inevitably crashed).
In this era of instant gratification, I feel like some people have to realize that Apple's advertising slogans are so much hot air. Not everything computer-related is plug-and-play. Some tasks take time, fiddling, and a bit of prior knowledge to accomplish correctly. In the end, the SCP is an entirely fan-created, fan-run endeavor. You guys aren't professional game developers. The fact that some sort of user-friendly installer exists in any form is somewhat of a minor miracle. Could it be better? Sure; any program can. Could the website have a somewhat better layout? Perhaps. But acting like all of the onus is on the community, and that the user has to do nothing at all but hit "Next" seven times to start playing, will probably wind up producing a bunch of users who will be utterly lost the first time they try to download and set up a newly-released campaign. There's something to be said for taking your lumps early on; you'll be much better equipped to handle what comes down the line.
That's my two cents, anyway. Feel free to place as much stock in it as you would in those Apple slogans. :p
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When I joined I already had FS2 installed so I just used the installer and boom. It worked. It was easy. No problems or anything.
But we should make New User Friendliness but not to much.
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Didn´t had problems installing FCP. I got plenty of help from Karajorma and Jr2 aftwerwards, showing me how to actually adjust all the Settings and Flags. But installing it was the most easy process. Just run the Downloader and it will install everything in it´s right place. Ok, i later had to figure out, that the Main FS2 Folder isn´t the Folder were to put the Mediavps and Mods...I think every Question gets answered sooner or later.
I totally support the "new user friendliness". The more easy your Project is to install, the more Users will download it. I´m pretty sure that lots of People didn´t get FCP yet, because of the somehow "complicatet" install process.
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I recently installed FSO for the first time, and I found the process to be confusing and frustrating. I spent approximately a day of logged-in time exploring the forums and getting a feel for the place before even attempting to install the game, and it still took me far too long to locate the necessary information to do so. “Lurk more” would certainly not have been a useful or reasonable reply, in my case.
I did eventually locate the FAQs and the installer, but in the end I had General Battuta walk me through the process because I was disinclined to waste more time on fumbling. Not everyone is going to have that option, and I doubt that most people have that much patience, either. Not when there are so many games that don’t make new users jump through hoops first.
With FAQs and such scattered all over, it’s unclear which are the official or most up-to-date versions. Also, I don’t think people are used to looking for important site navigation buttons above the title banner. My suggestion would be to put all the relevant information in one clearly visible place, and preferably not tucked away in a forum thread. I don’t think you could call that coddling or hand-holding, and it would vastly increase user-friendliness.
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What tutorial would you recommend? I need a little more content for the interim SCP site. An install guide would be perfect.
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With FAQs and such scattered all over, it’s unclear which are the official or most up-to-date versions.
Ok, I agree with that. It ´s really scattered and lots of Threads are not up to date. That´s why i usually follow the Links, in some of the Users Signatures...I guess it´s Colecampell, that had all the usefull Links inside his Signature ?
If nothings helping, try to PM one of the Cracks. I´m sure they do help out.
Look...http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=5928...scroll down a little and you got the most resent Version of FCP.
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I guess it´s Colecampell, that had all the usefull Links inside his Signature ?
Hey hey hey. Me and colecampbell have an unspoken agreement with that issue. Both of us have useful links in our signatures but only a fraction of them are the same.
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In line with a current line of conversation. I just tend to go for the latest "official" exe release. It's the media.vps which threw me off. The faqs are fine in setting up a good whole, but the little fixes are the nuggets of gold which i had to trawl for.
:)
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I've been here a while, I've watched the forums and seen the releases. I just decided to get the SCP to see and I found it confusing.
If you're not a coder, or even familiar with coding, figuring out what to do can be very tough.
I know a little bit of technobabble (I use that term with love :p) is ok for keeping people out of the mod and coding forums with no knowledge, but just getting the game? I dunno.
For all I know I'm the dumbest person here (now everyone will know why my campaigns have no mods)
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I spy a Goobler!! Whatz he say? xD ("jr2, Goober5000 and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.")
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With FAQs and such scattered all over, it’s unclear which are the official or most up-to-date versions.
The only manual install walk through that I know of is the one I typed up, which is stickied on the FS support board. We should probably move the installer threads there as well and make the board "FS support and install", because apparently "support" does not include installation help.
But yeah, generally stickied threads contain the most reputable information. It doesn't matter which one you go off of if they give redundant information, they wouldn't be stickied if they didn't work.
I really can't see how people can't find those stickied walk throughs and things. Do they not read or something?
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Make a board called "Installation Support"? lol I suppose just inserting "Installation and" before "Support" would work.
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I suppose just inserting "Installation and" before "Support" would work.
It might. It does seem that the majority of installation problem threads appear on General FreeSpace (or occasionally on Source Code Project), hmm.
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Errr, yet another board? Installation support should belong to FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support if anywhere.
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Errr, yet another board? Installation support should belong to FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support if anywhere.
Yah, I meant that. Expressed in a bit unclear way, I guess. Pardon.
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Yeah, all I ever meant was just change the names. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. :nervous:
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I altered description of FreeSpace & FreeSpace Open Support slightly. Should do fine as long as people pause to read descriptions too.
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I only started with fso about a month ago and it was confusing as hell. i got to the point where i just installed the thing by pure trial and error :)
also someonr should let Turey know that most noobs who knoe thier way around a computer will see the word's Open AL pop up in the installer text and assume they don't need to install it themselves. they then proceed to wonder what the **** they did wrong.
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I really can't see how people can't find those stickied walk throughs and things. Do they not read or something?
It's hard for us to judge 'how people can't find [whatever's in question]' because we already know where it is. The experiences of those entering the community and trying to install FSOpen suggest that they can't find these things. It's clearly not because they're all stupid.
Perhaps it's because they have certain expectations from installing other software, even open-source software. It really does seem like it's up to us to add that extra layer of clarity and polish to the installation process.
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They're stickied. They're always at the top. They're like big, permanent announcements.
I mean, where exactly do these people look for instructions? Everyone's said that they couldn't find them at all, but no one's said where they were looking. And we can't exactly put the things where the newbs look if we don't know where they look.
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noobs don't look. they are scared of the forums and all the fs gods who inhabit them. if we want people to find the instructions they and the installer should be placed on the main page. also as a general rule someone will not create a hlp account until they have the game.
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You know what's funny? I remember when I first got FS2 from here. I knew the bare bones of what to do, but there was a lot of bugs that I had to work out. It took a while, but I eventually got it (with a bit of help, of course). And you know what? That was fun. It was at least as fun as playing the actual campaign. Frankly, right now, with all of these installers and things, this stuff is being simplified just enough for people who don't really care about FS too much to try and get it, but not simple enough for them to not ***** about how hard it is to get.
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you have a point. working the bugs out of somthing can be great fun but only if you get a sense of accomplishment. otherwise it's just frustrating.
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Really? I think I had to care quite a bit to spend hours trying to figure out how to do this.
And stickied threads are only helpful if the newbs know which ones to be looking at – because otherwise there are dozens to sift through, and that takes time. This is a large forum, and there are probably an average four or five stickied threads per board. Yes, I read them. I read Kara’s FAQ. I read several pages of that massive installer thread, and anything else I could find that seemed related. That’s why it took me two hours to get from “I think I’ll install the game now” to downloading. I am a very patient person. Not everyone is.
And this “stupid newbs should look harder before they whine about it” attitude is going to make newcomers less interested in hanging around long enough to figure out what to do. Elitism is not welcoming.
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I don't find troubleshooting fun in the slightest, and I doubt many other people do. A few of the things I don't find amusing are looking through countless threads in a confusing forum, downloading files from obscure websites I've never heard of and deleting lines of text from huge text files that don't automatically open in any word processor. In fact I find it extremely frustrating. And I'm sure a lot of people do too.
Your personal experiences are not important if the majority disagree with your views. Not a lot of new users would classify installing FreeSpace Open more fun than the game itself.
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thesizzler, if we're (we being the people supporting increased user-friendliness) doing something that really irritate you, please let us know. You seem pretty vehement about this.
It seems like any other business decision: you've got to give the customer what she wants. The people who're picking up FSOpen of late clearly aren't dumb; witness folks like Marcus Vesper, who's obviously an intelligent man. They're just frustrated.
It seems we're doing something wrong, and stickied forum threads alone just aren't enough. I know that from our perspective it seems adequate -- you've definitely gotten that across -- but I have to admit that when I go to install a new piece of software, I want a very large, very obvious link that says 'GET FREESPACE OPEN (FULL RETAIL GAME INCLUDED.)'
It's my time, after all, I don't really know if Freespace is worth it, and as far as I'm concerned the install process is a mystifying gamble with only a small chance of working. I might even have some misconceptions -- say, I might believe that I need to know what a 'CVS build' is, or an Inferno build, or the difference between various MediaVPs and where to put them. I might just give up because the surfeit of information in the forums has convinced me the process is more complicated than it really is.
You seem concerned that we'd start letting dumb people into the FS community, but I don't think there's really any correlation between 'frustration at a complicated install process' and 'lack of intelligence.' It's more a matter of patience than wits.
Do you disagree?
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I don't understand what is wrong with making Hard Light a little more user-friendly.
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I only started with fso about a month ago and it was confusing as hell. i got to the point where i just installed the thing by pure trial and error :)
also someonr should let Turey know that most noobs who knoe thier way around a computer will see the word's Open AL pop up in the installer text and assume they don't need to install it themselves. they then proceed to wonder what the **** they did wrong.
Wait a minute...
The most recent Installer includes:
...
The OpenAL Installer (optional)
...
So Turey's installer says it installs OpenAL, but it actually doesn't? :doubt: No wonder people have trouble. I usually assume that an installer installs things, not just copy another installer to someplace else on your hard drive. That's actually more confusing to me than not installing OpenAL at all.
Not that I'm ungrateful to Turey for making the installer. Just...that's very confusing. It's the only time I've heard of a program doing that with something that's required to run it.
They're stickied. They're always at the top. They're like big, permanent announcements.
I mean, where exactly do these people look for instructions? Everyone's said that they couldn't find them at all, but no one's said where they were looking. And we can't exactly put the things where the newbs look if we don't know where they look.
I never look for install instructions for a program that has an installer. I try the installer first. That works well for nearly all programs I've ever installed for Windows. If there's big text that says "You need to do this before installing", I do that.
If there isn't an installer, then I look for installation instructions (including wiki). Then I look for a readme (possibly with the download). Then I reconsider whether I really want this program, or if I should try one of the others on the list. If I still want the program, then I'll google for install instructions. Then, if I really want to download the program, I'll look on the forums.
The reason being that many programs with no install instructions have crappy forums or a mailing list, and something on the forums is not going to be the same quality as somebody who's taken the time to take some screenshots and make a presentable web page on the subject. I would rather trust an installer by someone who cares that much to go that extra little effort, than a forum post by I-don't-know-who, that I then have to investigate whether it is or is not linked to any official source of the project in any way. (Or maybe just go on faith)
Basically what having the install instructions on a forum suggests to me that
A) nobody cares about how easy this thing is to use for the end user, which is me in this case.
B) If I ask for support, there's a good chance I'll get mediocre responses in such an exclusive or inactive community
C) The product is still very much in development and nobody believes that there is a reason to make an install guide yet.
D) The product is so buggy or hard to use that nobody sees any point to making it easy to install.
E) The community just doesn't want people to use the product, they just want developers.
F) I may end up wasting a lot of my time installing a product that I've never used only to find that I don't like it or it's hard to use.
But all this is arbitrary. If there's an installer, I install it, I try the program, and I decide for myself whether I like the program or not on its own merits, and the install process does not serve to play some role in selecting which program I use.
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Okay fine. I give up; you all win. :p
HLP sucks and I only managed to get through installation without giving myself brain cancer (metaphorically speaking) by sheer wit. I'm an outlier and I'll accept that. Until I do, I'll just force myself to sit back and wallow in my apparent intelligence, albeit not understanding how I had such an easy time while others didn't. I'm obviously not the right person to be trying to solve this problem. :)
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I congratulate you for not pulling a Mobius, which is a hard task in itself. :yes:
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I congratulate you for not pulling a Mobius, which is a hard task in itself. :yes:
There's more than a little sarcasm in that post...
EDIT: Oh, I see -
i only saw him post once and he was arguing with me.
What? Arguing? Mobius?! No wai!!1
That's his style. He is right and if someone disagrees, he begins a long and frustrating battle, which he refuses to forfeit even when all the evidence is against him. If all else fails, he begins calling people idiots.
So if I ignore the reference, you call me ignorant, and if I respond to it, you call me argumentative. :)
So do you actually disagree with what I'm saying or not?
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Even after lurking in these forums for two years, the first time I tried to get FSOpen I thought the right way to do it would be via -- of all things -- the Shivan_SPS torrent pack. Turey's Installer just didn't seem like a good option given the information I had.
So clearly there's a gap in communication somewhere.
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Abstractly complaining is not going to help us fix whatever's broken. Be specific as to what can be done.
I already put Turey's installer on the top navbar, and nobody seemed to care, except for a few people who said "make the navbar bigger". :blah:
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Move the FS Support forum to the top of the FS category.
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one thing that needs to happen is turey's installer either installing open AL or not. no gray whatsoever. especially since it is needed to run the game. Nothing against Turey or his installer though :)
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I still don't see a big flashing button that says "click here to download FSO" :P
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Well, it should be coming. Patience... But bah, when has that ever done me anything good?
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Abstractly complaining is not going to help us fix whatever's broken. Be specific as to what can be done.
I already put Turey's installer on the top navbar, and nobody seemed to care, except for a few people who said "make the navbar bigger". :blah:
Oh, no, I think the 'FSO Installer' link is a great change! I'm sorry, I should've posted something to indicate that. It was prompt and effective action, Goober.
All I'd do is, I guess, make it bigger (yeah, I know, I know -- not exactly a huge priority) and include a notice that says 'FS2 Retail Included'. If that's doable.
I think that should hit the spot.
Either that or make it say 'Get Freespace!', which is even more direct. Your choice.
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I feel like advertising something like "Hey, we're giving away an entire game for free in violation of its EULA!" in big bold letters is somewhat of a bad idea. And before you give me the "friends clause" argument, that doesn't appear across the board, and we all know it wouldn't apply to this distribution method anyway.
Come to think of it, a point related to this might be the reason that there's some disagreement as to how user-friendly the place is. From hanging around GenFS and the support forum, I feel it's a safe generalization to say that many people coming across the SCP these days are those who have never previously played/owned FS2. In a way, that's a good thing, since it means that word about the project is continuously spreading. But I also think it represents something of a divide. Back when I first came here, I had been playing FS1 for years, and I had given FS2 at least one or two play-throughs. Even if I didn't quite understand the SCP as a whole, I had a decent handle on things like the game's folder structure and VP files. Besides that, I'd already played and loved the series, so I was willing to dedicate as much time as necessary to getting things working right; there wasn't anything else calling my attention away. Now, contrast that to someone who's trying to download the game itself for the first time. They may have briefly played it in the past or heard about its reputation, and they want to give it a shot. They're not going to be nearly as fanatic as an already-established fan about searching down documentation and learning how everything works; if they can't make heads or tails of things, they're likely to just turn aside to whatever other game catches their eye. If that's the case, then those sorts of players might find searching through multiple stickied threads in a forum to be an unreasonable task, even if it came naturally to those of us who owned vanilla FS2.
Hmm...maybe us (relatively) old farts really should keep our mouths shut. :p
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And this “stupid newbs should look harder before they whine about it” attitude is going to make newcomers less interested in hanging around long enough to figure out what to do. Elitism is not welcoming.
...Which is Linux's problem. They're so smart, they think everyone else is dumb. Well, for a "dumb" person to become smart, they need help. Some learn faster than others. If they're really dumb, they just won't learn regardless of the help they get. xD
I dunno about making it a big announcement that retail FS is included. We don't want Interplay getting any ideas (why they would take a 10-year old game away from die-hard fans IDK, but hey, they botched the marketing of FS2, what can I say...)
Oh yeah, and I forgot, thx for doing the navbar, Goob. :yes:
And @ Turey, can't you make the OpenAL installer run a .bat file that echoes the install line that it's going to execute, and says "press Y to continue, N to exit"? That way it's not directly executing anything unless it's permitted to. (Well, cmd.exe, but really, that's just like executing Java to run your Installer.)
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I agree that advertising the free and illegal giveaway of a game is probably a bad plan, so I'll retract that suggestion.
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Ehhh this site is very newbie friendly. You should try over at More Awesome Than You, they flamboy newbies. :lol:
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Wait a minute...
The most recent Installer includes:
...
The OpenAL Installer (optional)
...
So Turey's installer says it installs OpenAL, but it actually doesn't? :doubt: No wonder people have trouble. I usually assume that an installer installs things, not just copy another installer to someplace else on your hard drive. That's actually more confusing to me than not installing OpenAL at all.
Not that I'm ungrateful to Turey for making the installer. Just...that's very confusing. It's the only time I've heard of a program doing that with something that's required to run it.
one thing that needs to happen is turey's installer either installing open AL or not. no gray whatsoever. especially since it is needed to run the game. Nothing against Turey or his installer though :)
****. My mistake, that's outdated. I'll go get rid of that.
And @ Turey, can't you make the OpenAL installer run a .bat file that echoes the install line that it's going to execute, and says "press Y to continue, N to exit"? That way it's not directly executing anything unless it's permitted to. (Well, cmd.exe, but really, that's just like executing Java to run your Installer.)
Couple of problems:
1. .bat files are windows only.
2. if a user doesn't know enough to be able to download and run an executable, they're unlikely to go research whatever program is being run, which means that they'll probably just hit yes, which means I'm still allowing remote execution of code I haven't written, which is bad. I guess I could put in a big disclaimer or something, but I don't see it being worth my time.
Please note that I have no problem with someone else doing the work. If you send me a diff against the current code and a list of the text files that need to be changed, I'll be much more receptive to your change request.
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Perhaps someone could make a very streamlined installer with just the demo missions? I can imagine people getting frightened by a download time of several hours, if they don't yet know if they'll like it.
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Like the FreeSpace 2 Demo (http://www.freespacemods.net/download.php?view.172), perhaps? Maybe with some end notes saying how much more fun the actual FS2 is, not to mention all the graphical and gameplay improvements provided by the FSO engine and the MediaVPs.
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thanks Turey. that was kinda confusing.
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Aye
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Like the FreeSpace 2 Demo (http://www.freespacemods.net/download.php?view.172), perhaps? Maybe with some end notes saying how much more fun the actual FS2 is, not to mention all the graphical and gameplay improvements provided by the FSO engine and the MediaVPs.
Well, yeah. But nobody who isn't into FS already will find it there IMHO.
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Like the FreeSpace 2 Demo (http://www.freespacemods.net/download.php?view.172), perhaps? Maybe with some end notes saying how much more fun the actual FS2 is, not to mention all the graphical and gameplay improvements provided by the FSO engine and the MediaVPs.
Well, yeah. But nobody who isn't into FS already will find it there IMHO.
I know. I was merely pointing out that there is hardly any reason to make an "installer" for a demo since the FS2 demo is alive and well. But I agree that new people don't just stumble upon FreeSpaceMods and download the demo. If we were to try this "Try the demo to see how cool FS is", there should be a link somewhere where it might hit the eye.
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I don`t know who else has noticed, but the SCP official site (http://scp.indiegames.us/) is back up, and it`s nicely organized. So if people are getting lost as to what to download and how, point them there.
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Creating stuff friendly to new users is pointless if new users aren't directed to it.
The FreeSpace Wiki is already invisible and people simply don't check it. What do we get as result? People posting in the Inferno forum about acronyms whose meanings are explained in the Wiki...meh...
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Like the FreeSpace 2 Demo (http://www.freespacemods.net/download.php?view.172), perhaps? Maybe with some end notes saying how much more fun the actual FS2 is, not to mention all the graphical and gameplay improvements provided by the FSO engine and the MediaVPs.
Well, yeah. But nobody who isn't into FS already will find it there IMHO.
how about we make a SCP Demo? just like the original only with FSOpen and a condensed version of the mediavps?
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:yes:
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Okay, then where do we put it ?
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http://www.getspacecrack.com
Although there might be some political correctness issues to solve, you're not going to find a more memorable name. :p
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http://www.getspacecrack.com
Although there might be some political correctness issues to solve, you're not going to find a more memorable name. :p
Oh my God :P
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Why the HELL did you buy that domain to have it redirect to the SCP page?
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Now people like Titan's Dad will think we sell drugs. >.>
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Yeah. Titan's dad will hate us, and then he'll close the internet because of it.
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it is called internet Armageddon. it is in the book of Gates 23:2.
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Now people like Titan's Dad will think we sell drugs. >.>
"This song goes out to Turbonegro. They've anally inserted every single one of these drugs. In. Front. Of. My. Face."
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http://www.getspacecrack.com
Although there might be some political correctness issues to solve, you're not going to find a more memorable name. :p
:lol: Brilliant!
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http://www.getspacecrack.com
Although there might be some political correctness issues to solve, you're not going to find a more memorable name. :p
http://www.getspacecrack.com/bnr_installer.php
I will be using this link in all of my viral marketing for FSO from now on. :nod: :yes:
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I don't think this warrants a new topic, so i decided the bump this thread.
The search function included at the menu bar is quite ineffective. Because it searches the entire forum for the related word, but sorts it according to relevance. I'd like the ability to sort it by date, which it can't do.
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Yes it can. Select the "Most recent" option.
Although, that option was originally the default, and the forum upgrade changed it. :(
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I'm trying to search for a thread a while back about creating a "regeneration" event for ships. And the most recent result its giving me is 18 June 2005, followed by Janurary 5 2006. I used the search terms "self repair".
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try hull regenerate or hull repair
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Oh, I found the thread already, and did accordingly. I was just pointing out that the default search pattern searches all the way back to 2002 and arranges by relevance, and you have to go into the advanced search to change it; can't make the search result page sort by date after the search is complete.
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Couldn't you guys have noticed that "recent results first" was the default setting for the past eighteen months or so? "Relevant results first" was only the default option for the past two weeks, ever since the SMF upgrade. :(
I've added my code patch again. But I kinda wonder why I bothered. :(
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There there Count Goober. The Search function is rarely used, and so your magnificent work goes unnoticed. But we all love you just the same.
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Is it possible to link a new-user-friendly-page above? There currently are links to "Home", "FSO Installer", "FS Wiki"...why not something for new members? :)
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And the link says, "New Users Over Here!" ? Or something along that variation?
... Somehow, this makes me picture Hagrid.
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Uh, no...something like:
"New Users' Portal"
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Most of our "new users" are long-time lurkers.
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Not true, we had a flood of newbs from SA a while ago.
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Hence, I said "most". In any case, floods don't happen on a regular basis, do they?
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Yes, there are people who create an account simply because they have a game error and want to solve the problem...but there also are people who're completely new to FS.
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Hmmm. Then the new user page should point to solutions for the more common errors and issues, so that they don't have to make a whole new account just to ask, "Hey why does my ship become an Ulysses?"
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...plus telling the basics about the community, FSO and FS3(basically what people need to know)...
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Now people like Titan's Dad will think we sell drugs. >.>
If there actually are drugs called "Spacecrack", it's probably better for your health/longevity to end up playing Freespace instead...
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Well, some forums have a board just for new users...
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And/or specific threads...GW is one such site.
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Right now, Turey's (excellent) installer and the FSO launcher are both clearly intended for advanced users. The Installer, or perhaps a new one, since Turey has expressed distaste for going back to it, needs to clearly lay out what is necessary to play the game. What the end-user is used to is not a list of options, but a series of simple choices. Pick what applies to you, that sort of thing. For less computer-savvy users, what is important is simplicity over flexibility.
Give them a choice: do I have FreeSpace 2 already installed? If so, click here for FSO. If not, click here for FS2 + Open. Do I have a decent graphics card? If so, download MediaVPs, a package that provides better-quality graphics (recommended for most users). If not, don't bother. If you can, auto-detect OpenAL. If not, then give them a choice, with the default setting "download", because if you have OpenAL, chances are you'll know. Then, list the top five or so user-created campaigns and mods, just like we already have, with a brief summary and description, like we already have. Check a box for each, and make it clear that to select a mod you must run the FSO launcher.
Then, the Launcher. At the end of the Installer, explain that the FSO launcher modifies important settings for the game. Explain that it handles the mod selection and other advanced options. The mod selection page itself is probably fine the way it is. Perhaps the Launcher itself could explain its function on the main tab, in simple terms.
These are just suggestions. I know that they'd take a lot of work to implement, just for the sake of a dribble of new users. But right now, the installation process is actively turning people away. It's the least we can do just to make installation a bit easier, even if they don't like the game.
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Ipse Dixit for you! :nod:
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And also, add a preconfigured launcher6.ini to take the guess work out of setting most of it up.
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I don't want either the Launcher or the Installer to turn into Windows Vista.
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... True, that. On a slightly related note, is FSO Vista compatible?
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I've heard that it isn't.
Anyway, Agent_Koopa has a good idea there. Now we just need someone who wants to make an installer :)
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It's completely Vista-compatible, so whomever you heard it from was wrong. :p
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I`m on Vista 64-bit and I`ve had zero compatabiliy issues.
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It isn't Vista per se, it seems to be the drivers/software/hardware installed on Vista that's the problem.
So yes, in most cases, FSO works in Vista.
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I know that most hardware manufacturers had trouble getting compatible drivers out when Vista was first released, but I was under the impression that most of that has been taken care of by now.
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That was found to be the Vista problem a lot earlier, and most average users don't update drivers.
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The Vista problem is that fact it asks me to confirm every frickin action. From granting firewall access to . . . .creating a folder :rolleyes: i hate that.
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There are ways to disable those annoying windows. Google is your friend.
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I don't want either the Launcher or the Installer to turn into Windows Vista.
ATM, they are equivalent to Linux (yes, Linux has a user-friendly interface, but heaven help you if it fails). User friendliness?? Grack, to **** with the n00bies! /grumpy old man
There are ways to disable those annoying windows. Google is your friend.
You need to disable UAC... google "disable vista UAC"
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for the installer why not just create some NSIS thing to dump all the files where you want them
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for the installer why not just create some NSIS thing to dump all the files where you want them
:lol:
And now we come full circle: setup.nsi (http://www.fsoinstaller.com/files/installer/setup.nsi)
For those of you who weren't around/don't remember, the Installer was originally coded in NSIS for a couple months before I re-wrote it in Java. Linked above is the last version of the Installer in NSIS. There's no way it works as-is anymore, but with some minor tweaking, it should be salvageable. Certainly better than starting from scratch.
It doesn't include retail, but this one (http://www.fsoinstaller.com/files/freespace/fssetup.nsi) did.
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stop laughing at me :(
all i was saying is that if noobs could download an installer and let it sit for however long until it installed the thing they would probably be more motivated to play it. also if there was automatically a launcher.exe shortcut on the desktop and a readme right beside it it would make things a lot more straightforward
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stop laughing at me :(
:lol:
if noobs could download an installer and let it sit for however long until it installed the thing they would probably be more motivated to play it. also if there was automatically a launcher.exe shortcut on the desktop and a readme right beside it it would make things a lot more straightforward
Well, isn't that what the Installer does? Run it, select the components you want to get (select all if you don't know what to do), wait. When it's ready, there is a readme, or at least that's what I've understood.
You can't go much more straightforward without making the Installer so that it merely says (Click Next to install), followed by confusion when you have no idea what it might do. The Installer is clear enough for people who are worthy of FreeSpace_Open. Meaning people who are willing to out even the slightest of effort on getting a high-quality game that has an active fanbase and that is continuously being developed to meet modern requirements. If a person doesn't want to take the time to do things right or learn something new, **** them. They can go and buy yet another Call of Duty and that way be sure that they can succeed with installing that game.
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I think that it's good that the installer is mildly complicated to use, instead of clicking "Next". It forces people to think, and keeps the average IQ of HLP out of the red.
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I think that it's good that the installer is mildly complicated to use, instead of clicking "Next". It forces people to think, and keeps the average IQ of HLP out of the red.
:lol: That's a good thing, right? Since that excludes quite a number of people.
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The Installer isn't the issue... it's ok (aside from the whole necessity of Java unless you want to download a 20MB Windoze version). I think the issue is the lack of and in-between step after the install and before you run the launcher. I.E., most installers let you pop up a readme file so you can read more. That would be handy, put a F.A.Q. section in the readme & stuff. Also, perhaps have the Installer able to provide a linky to the download page for OpenAL.
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I.E., most installers let you pop up a readme file so you can read more. That would be handy, put a F.A.Q. section in the readme & stuff. Also, perhaps have the Installer able to provide a linky to the download page for OpenAL.
Doesn't it do those things? If I am not mistaken, there is some kind of a readme, and it does rant about OpenAL. The issue before was that the Installer informed the user that it also includes the OpenAL installer. People who read too fast or have less than fluent English assumed that OpenAL is installed during the process. Which it wasn't.
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It doesn't have a readme file. It basically says that you need OpenAL and that's it. If there were problems during the download, it will mention them there, too. We need a readme. =P 3.6.5 had one, IIRC.
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I disagree. The Installer, right now, gives the user a huge list of optional components, and then urges them just to select all of them. We're a long way from having the non-technically-minded be able to play FSO, there are still a few too many bugs and steps for that. But you have to acknowledge that the current wall o' options is a tad off-putting, even to people like me, who possess the minimal level of skill needed to operate a computer effectively and not be asking people all the time where something goes when you save it.
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well checking everything does work.....
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...and it takes a few hours to download even if you have a fast connection. So I wouldn't do it, especially if I had never played the game before (so I didn't know if I would like it).
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well checking everything does work.....
That's not the point, the point is that the user has no idea what they're agreeing to, and that's not good. Plus, checking everything gives them a whole bunch of custom campaigns that they may not necessarily want or understand how to use.
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The Installer needs to tell the user the size of the components that you can select... the "say yes to all" should display the total size of all the components.
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I suggested an overall progress bar besides having a separate one for each file to Turey, but he said it would be complicated.