[tinfoil]

noobs don't look. they are scared of the forums and all the fs gods who inhabit them. if we want people to find the instructions they and the installer should be placed on the main page. also as a general rule someone will not create a hlp account until they have the game.

[Polpolion]

You know what's funny? I remember when I first got FS2 from here. I knew the bare bones of what to do, but there was a lot of bugs that I had to work out. It took a while, but I eventually got it (with a bit of help, of course). And you know what? That was fun. It was at least as fun as playing the actual campaign. Frankly, right now, with all of these installers and things, this stuff is being simplified just enough for people who don't really care about FS too much to try and get it, but not simple enough for them to not ***** about how hard it is to get.

[tinfoil]

you have a point. working the bugs out of somthing can be great fun but only if you get a sense of accomplishment. otherwise it's just frustrating.

[Rian]

Really? I think I had to care quite a bit to spend hours trying to figure out how to do this.

And stickied threads are only helpful if the newbs know which ones to be looking at – because otherwise there are dozens to sift through, and that takes time. This is a large forum, and there are probably an average four or five stickied threads per board. Yes, I read them. I read Kara’s FAQ. I read several pages of that massive installer thread, and anything else I could find that seemed related. That’s why it took me two hours to get from “I think I’ll install the game now” to downloading. I am a very patient person. Not everyone is.

And this “stupid newbs should look harder before they whine about it” attitude is going to make newcomers less interested in hanging around long enough to figure out what to do. Elitism is not welcoming.

[Snail]

I don't find troubleshooting fun in the slightest, and I doubt many other people do. A few of the things I don't find amusing are looking through countless threads in a confusing forum, downloading files from obscure websites I've never heard of and deleting lines of text from huge text files that don't automatically open in any word processor. In fact I find it extremely frustrating. And I'm sure a lot of people do too.

Your personal experiences are not important if the majority disagree with your views. Not a lot of new users would classify installing FreeSpace Open more fun than the game itself.

[General Battuta]

thesizzler, if we're (we being the people supporting increased user-friendliness) doing something that really irritate you, please let us know. You seem pretty vehement about this.

It seems like any other business decision: you've got to give the customer what she wants. The people who're picking up FSOpen of late clearly aren't dumb; witness folks like Marcus Vesper, who's obviously an intelligent man. They're just frustrated.

It seems we're doing something wrong, and stickied forum threads alone just aren't enough. I know that from our perspective it seems adequate -- you've definitely gotten that across -- but I have to admit that when I go to install a new piece of software, I want a very large, very obvious link that says 'GET FREESPACE OPEN (FULL RETAIL GAME INCLUDED.)'

It's my time, after all, I don't really know if Freespace is worth it, and as far as I'm concerned the install process is a mystifying gamble with only a small chance of working. I might even have some misconceptions -- say, I might believe that I need to know what a 'CVS build' is, or an Inferno build, or the difference between various MediaVPs and where to put them. I might just give up because the surfeit of information in the forums has convinced me the process is more complicated than it really is.

You seem concerned that we'd start letting dumb people into the FS community, but I don't think there's really any correlation between 'frustration at a complicated install process' and 'lack of intelligence.' It's more a matter of patience than wits.

Do you disagree?

[Snail]

I don't understand what is wrong with making Hard Light a little more user-friendly.

[WMCoolmon]

I only started with fso about a month ago and it was confusing as hell. i got to the point where i just installed the thing by pure trial and error
also someonr should let Turey know that most noobs who knoe thier way around a computer will see the word's Open AL pop up in the installer text and assume they don't need to install it themselves. they then proceed to wonder what the **** they did wrong.

Wait a minute...

The most recent Installer includes:

...
The OpenAL Installer (optional)
...

So Turey's installer says it installs OpenAL, but it actually doesn't? No wonder people have trouble. I usually assume that an installer installs things, not just copy another installer to someplace else on your hard drive. That's actually more confusing to me than not installing OpenAL at all.

Not that I'm ungrateful to Turey for making the installer. Just...that's very confusing. It's the only time I've heard of a program doing that with something that's required to run it.

They're stickied. They're always at the top. They're like big, permanent announcements.

I mean, where exactly do these people look for instructions? Everyone's said that they couldn't find them at all, but no one's said where they were looking. And we can't exactly put the things where the newbs look if we don't know where they look.

I never look for install instructions for a program that has an installer. I try the installer first. That works well for nearly all programs I've ever installed for Windows. If there's big text that says "You need to do this before installing", I do that.

If there isn't an installer, then I look for installation instructions (including wiki). Then I look for a readme (possibly with the download). Then I reconsider whether I really want this program, or if I should try one of the others on the list. If I still want the program, then I'll google for install instructions. Then, if I really want to download the program, I'll look on the forums.

The reason being that many programs with no install instructions have crappy forums or a mailing list, and something on the forums is not going to be the same quality as somebody who's taken the time to take some screenshots and make a presentable web page on the subject. I would rather trust an installer by someone who cares that much to go that extra little effort, than a forum post by I-don't-know-who, that I then have to investigate whether it is or is not linked to any official source of the project in any way. (Or maybe just go on faith)

Basically what having the install instructions on a forum suggests to me that
A) nobody cares about how easy this thing is to use for the end user, which is me in this case.
B) If I ask for support, there's a good chance I'll get mediocre responses in such an exclusive or inactive community
C) The product is still very much in development and nobody believes that there is a reason to make an install guide yet.
D) The product is so buggy or hard to use that nobody sees any point to making it easy to install.
E) The community just doesn't want people to use the product, they just want developers.
F) I may end up wasting a lot of my time installing a product that I've never used only to find that I don't like it or it's hard to use.

But all this is arbitrary. If there's an installer, I install it, I try the program, and I decide for myself whether I like the program or not on its own merits, and the install process does not serve to play some role in selecting which program I use.

[Polpolion]

Okay fine. I give up; you all win.

HLP sucks and I only managed to get through installation without giving myself brain cancer (metaphorically speaking) by sheer wit. I'm an outlier and I'll accept that. Until I do, I'll just force myself to sit back and wallow in my apparent intelligence, albeit not understanding how I had such an easy time while others didn't. I'm obviously not the right person to be trying to solve this problem.

[Snail]

I congratulate you for not pulling a Mobius, which is a hard task in itself.

[WMCoolmon]

I congratulate you for not pulling a Mobius, which is a hard task in itself.

There's more than a little sarcasm in that post...

EDIT: Oh, I see -

i only saw him post once and he was arguing with me.

What? Arguing? Mobius?! No wai!!1

That's his style. He is right and if someone disagrees, he begins a long and frustrating battle, which he refuses to forfeit even when all the evidence is against him. If all else fails, he begins calling people idiots.

So if I ignore the reference, you call me ignorant, and if I respond to it, you call me argumentative.

So do you actually disagree with what I'm saying or not?

[General Battuta]

Even after lurking in these forums for two years, the first time I tried to get FSOpen I thought the right way to do it would be via -- of all things -- the Shivan_SPS torrent pack. Turey's Installer just didn't seem like a good option given the information I had.

So clearly there's a gap in communication somewhere.

[Goober5000]

Abstractly complaining is not going to help us fix whatever's broken.  Be specific as to what can be done.

I already put Turey's installer on the top navbar, and nobody seemed to care, except for a few people who said "make the navbar bigger".

[colecampbell666]

Move the FS Support forum to the top of the FS category.

[tinfoil]

one thing that needs to happen is turey's installer either installing open AL or not. no gray whatsoever. especially since it is needed to run the game. Nothing against Turey or his installer though

[haloboy100]

I still don't see a big flashing button that says "click here to download FSO"

[Droid803]

Well, it should be coming. Patience... But bah, when has that ever done me anything good?

[General Battuta]

Abstractly complaining is not going to help us fix whatever's broken.  Be specific as to what can be done.

I already put Turey's installer on the top navbar, and nobody seemed to care, except for a few people who said "make the navbar bigger".

Oh, no, I think the 'FSO Installer' link is a great change! I'm sorry, I should've posted something to indicate that. It was prompt and effective action, Goober.

All I'd do is, I guess, make it bigger (yeah, I know, I know -- not exactly a huge priority) and include a notice that says 'FS2 Retail Included'. If that's doable.

I think that should hit the spot.

Either that or make it say 'Get Freespace!', which is even more direct. Your choice.

[Mongoose]

I feel like advertising something like "Hey, we're giving away an entire game for free in violation of its EULA!" in big bold letters is somewhat of a bad idea.  And before you give me the "friends clause" argument, that doesn't appear across the board, and we all know it wouldn't apply to this distribution method anyway.

Come to think of it, a point related to this might be the reason that there's some disagreement as to how user-friendly the place is.  From hanging around GenFS and the support forum, I feel it's a safe generalization to say that many people coming across the SCP these days are those who have never previously played/owned FS2.  In a way, that's a good thing, since it means that word about the project is continuously spreading.  But I also think it represents something of a divide.  Back when I first came here, I had been playing FS1 for years, and I had given FS2 at least one or two play-throughs.  Even if I didn't quite understand the SCP as a whole, I had a decent handle on things like the game's folder structure and VP files.  Besides that, I'd already played and loved the series, so I was willing to dedicate as much time as necessary to getting things working right; there wasn't anything else calling my attention away.  Now, contrast that to someone who's trying to download the game itself for the first time.  They may have briefly played it in the past or heard about its reputation, and they want to give it a shot.  They're not going to be nearly as fanatic as an already-established fan about searching down documentation and learning how everything works; if they can't make heads or tails of things, they're likely to just turn aside to whatever other game catches their eye.  If that's the case, then those sorts of players might find searching through multiple stickied threads in a forum to be an unreasonable task, even if it came naturally to those of us who owned vanilla FS2.

Hmm...maybe us (relatively) old farts really should keep our mouths shut.

[jr2]

And this “stupid newbs should look harder before they whine about it” attitude is going to make newcomers less interested in hanging around long enough to figure out what to do. Elitism is not welcoming.

...Which is Linux's problem.  They're so smart, they think everyone else is dumb.  Well, for a "dumb" person to become smart, they need help.  Some learn faster than others.  If they're really dumb, they just won't learn regardless of the help they get.  xD

I dunno about making it a big announcement that retail FS is included.  We don't want Interplay getting any ideas (why they would take a 10-year old game away from die-hard fans IDK, but hey, they botched the marketing of FS2, what can I say...)

Oh yeah, and I forgot, thx for doing the navbar, Goob. 

And @ Turey, can't you make the OpenAL installer run a .bat file that echoes the install line that it's going to execute, and says "press Y to continue, N to exit"?  That way it's not directly executing anything unless it's permitted to.  (Well, cmd.exe, but really, that's just like executing Java to run your Installer.)