Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Marcov on February 25, 2011, 09:46:11 pm
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NOTE: Before you vote, REFER TO THIS:
“Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT” (Matthew 7:14; Luke 13:23,24).
This is particularly a discussion thread about the concept of Christianity's well-feautured "eternal fire" concept. Remember, I shall not force anyone to conform to any particular opinion. But feel free to debate if you like.
Non-Christians may also vote/discuss too. I'd like to hear an outside view of this concept.
I'm pretty sure there may have been threads like this in the past if I'm not mistaken. Well, anyway, here it is again if that's the case.
My Stand:
- I am actually confused of this. Yes, I do think it's sort of ridicoulous. If Christianity is based on such positive concepts like grace, forgiveness, love, compassion etc. bring about such a horrible concept? I mean, hell, Jesus supposedly came into this world to "save" us, and there's such a passage stating that most of the Earth will fall down into turmoil. What a really, really scary declaration, and if possible may turn some people paranoid of it.
However, I do not, in any way, ask you to believe in my opinion. It is merely my stand on this topic.
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My reaction to yet another thread like this:
(http://kiserai.net/gallery/d/931-1/do-not-want-dog.jpg)
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In these cases, Snuffy is the option.... but I don't see it :nono:
Personal thinking:
Christianism is a flawed faith, all their answers mean nothing to me so hell can go to hell, and heaven as well.. I don't want to be happy after I'm dead, I want to be happy now.
Personal opinion, not subject to change.
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Where is the "If hell exists but everyone but the zealots are there" option? :P
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Today I gave Pandora too much feedback and it stopped playing anything but Foreigner and hair metal
Hell is real
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"youith willith sufferith foreverith ifith youith don'tith
submitith to my authorityith followith allith these ruleiths in this bookith that I justith worteith gotith fromith a sentient pasta creatureith that knowith everythingith. seeith it sayith right hereith that it knowith everythingith"
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This guy says it more eloquently than I can. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaL7CkQaQpU)
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Wasn't christianity in its earlier (and I guess truer?) form all about hardcore god-fearing? Hell makes a lot of sense in that context.
(I'm probably wrong. My knowledge of christianity comes from common knowledge and a picture bible I read when I was 6 years old)
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Actually in its original form I think it was about giving up all your worldly possessions and loving everyone.
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Jesus Christianity is about love and forgiveness. Of course, we don't really know what Jesus actually said and what the early Church cherry-picked to be in the Bible for the poor in Europe to think being poor, downtrodden, and oppressed was something to be happy about...
But I think it's about love. So **** Hell, if God really is a compassionate person, he wouldn't send people just because they loved people and didn't hear Jesus tell them to.
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I think a lot of what christanity is was made for the time when it orginally started and some time after that. I think this is an example of it being off with the time. but that means that culture would determine the validty of religion and isnt that sorta counter to the whole point of religion?
Honest response? Im not much for religion in general but I'm just gona try and do what i think is right. If it turns out i was wrong whoops ill burn, but i will do so knowing i tried to do right. if i was right, well that sucks that theres nothing outside this life.
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No one will burn, hell is like a super-bogeyman, its "existence" is merely for putting people into good behavior.
The chances you will burn in hell are on par of you reaching a nice bed with 72 virgins on your afterlife, i.e., zero.
So if you want to have some fun, I'd advice you to take the opportunity that you have by living on doing exactly that.
Alternatively, you can think like this: if you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing.
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my opinion is:
if hell exists, then everyone deserves to go there, especially bible thumpers.
hell is one of the many things christianity borrowed stole from paganism (several holidays another). in most forms of paganism you usually go to hades to repay your moral debts in life and at some point you are allowed to leave. this is an idea i somewhat like. i also kina like the ancient egyptian mentality where you were simply denied an afterlife for doing bad things. i cant much say that i like the concept of an afterlife at all. i view life as more of an iterative process where death is essential to make room for the next iteration. there is also the question of if there is an afterlife then what? do you just sit around and do nothing for the rest of eternity? i kind of think that would be a form of hell in and of itself.
then you take a more bizarre view of hell from a particular satanic cult (now defunct, because cult leaders shouldn't kill themselves before the number of followers are greater than a few), the misanthropic luciferian order, describes hell as a chaotic realm of infinite dimensions where anything is possible and thus is a path of true freedom, in sort of an odd mix of satanism and string theory. in this sense hell = heaven. this is another idea i find compelling.
as for what i believe, i dont believe in anything. nihilism works great. its fun to think about this kinda stuff though. but if i was god, i think id just ship human souls straight off to hell as soon as they die.
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I do not believe in a hell, or a heaven, or a god.
I find presumption of such knowledge. . . amusing. (I've been there)
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Disclaimer: In general, I try not to get into religious discussions online, as it's hard to not come off as nuts, so I'll make this short.
Hell, as the popular image of eternal fire and torment, does not exist. The word translated as "hell" is Sheol in Hebrew and Hades in Greek. In the Bible, it's just the condition of being dead, or the grave. The torment part was a concept adapted from the Greek and Roman religions by the church long after the death of Jesus, and from misinterpreting a few verses in Revelation.
Example:
1) Job asked to be concealed in Sheol, to avoid the torment of living. Did he want to be tormented?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2014:13&version=NASB
2) Jesus, for the three days he was dead, was considered to be in Hades.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202:27&version=NASB
(Of course, ninja'd by Nuke)
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Actually my biggest complaint about Christianity is the existence of hell.
I would not deny that I am a member of Christianity and am actually currently believing in it now, though I can actually see some logical flaws in it.
For example, why hell? If God is reputedly described as some perfect daddy who can rescue everyone, sadly, God is also portrayed as a "God of Justice". And what is that "Justice"? Why, that is a declaration of only "few" mortals who shall be able to be "saved", as described in the above passage.
Then, if God is "eternally good" why should He send perhaps about 95% of all humanity into a forever-plasma prison? Logically, we have a 5% good God in that way. It would now thus be so "hard" to please God.
Furthermore, a critical point in Christianity is that Jesus was supposed to have "died for our sins". If He truly did, then it's somehow surprising that Earthly logic goes on, people do bad stuff again and again.
(http://i54.tinypic.com/4gnqwx.jpg)
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We're all in hell
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Maybe our lives on Earth are punishment for transgressions in previous lives. :lol:
No one will burn, hell is like a super-bogeyman, its "existence" is merely for putting people into good behavior.
This I guess...
It makes sense if it is purely invented, if I may says so, just to scare people into believing.
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I'm not entirely sure that the Universe has been informed of our concepts of heaven and hell.
Heaven and hell are simple carrot and stick methods of keeping people in line. Like every organization, the Church is nothing without members. If you want to appeal to large masses and then keep them in line, you need a simple system like that.
Also, Sushi's answer here is by far the best one.
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If there is a hell, it's listening to the religious people.
On a more serious note -- Jesus came to save the world, but whosoever does not believe stands condemned already. A lot of people don't know that. That is to say, people trump John 3:16 as proof that the bible isn't seeking to condemn people, yet in 3:18, that is exactly what it says. This, by the way, is the verse that the Phelps use to justify that the world is doomed.
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If there is a hell, it's listening to the religious people.
On a more serious note -- Jesus came to save the world, but whosoever does not believe stands condemned already. A lot of people don't know that. That is to say, people trump John 3:16 as proof that the bible isn't seeking to condemn people, yet in 3:18, that is exactly what it says. This, by the way, is the verse that the Phelps use to justify that the world is doomed.
Phelps' eschatology is for **** by any standard, even those of primitive Baptists. If you're taking his word for anything, on any subject, may the fleas of a thousand camels infest your crotch for being a total nitwit.
The existence of Hell actually rests on a very small number of biblical passages, the most prominent of which is the whole "depart from me ye cursed into the lake of fire prepared for Satan" blahblah. A fairly sound case can be made that the second covenant removes Hell from the equation (possibly entirely), although making that case is not popular.
Assuming you buy into this stuff.
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Maybe our lives on Earth are punishment for transgressions in previous lives. :lol:
No one will burn, hell is like a super-bogeyman, its "existence" is merely for putting people into good behavior.
This I guess...
It makes sense if it is purely invented, if I may says so, just to scare people into believing.
when you consider the time in which christianity was hammered out into a mainstream religion, and the bible was canonized, what you see is a collapsing civilization (rome) trying to preserve whats left of its self, and attempting to use much more simplified religion (face it paganism was a very complex religion) as a glue to keep itself together. so many pro-imperial concepts were emphasized. hell being one of them, because you couldn't make people want to do the "right" thing on faith alone, so you threaten their soul with torture after death to motivate them into the "correct" actions. so i consider hell part of the religious institution and really having nothing to do with faith itself.
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Philosophical problem: I am most happy when I contribute to mankind. If I'm dead and in heaven, I can't contribute to mankind anymore, and therefore I cannot be happy in heaven, and therefore whether or not hell or heaven exists is totally irrelevant because no matter where I go, it will suck ass for the rest of eternity.
Therefore, your question is meaningless :D
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Philosophical problem: I am most happy when I contribute to mankind. If I'm dead and in heaven, I can't contribute to mankind anymore, and therefore I cannot be happy in heaven, and therefore whether or not hell or heaven exists is totally irrelevant because no matter where I go, it will suck ass for the rest of eternity.
Therefore, your question is meaningless :D
You could be a badass angel and fight Nazis
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Philosophical problem: I am most happy when I contribute to mankind. If I'm dead and in heaven, I can't contribute to mankind anymore, and therefore I cannot be happy in heaven, and therefore whether or not hell or heaven exists is totally irrelevant because no matter where I go, it will suck ass for the rest of eternity.
Therefore, your question is meaningless :D
You could be a badass angel and fight Nazis
^win.
also, definitely at least similar to my view on all of this. Regardless of whether or not there is or is not a Heaven or a Hell, the only thing we can objectively measure as we are as a being is our contribution to our fellow beings. Even without the added motivation of any religion, the inherent good feelings that come from doing good things for mankind should be motivation enough.
At least that's my penny's worth.
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Being good is extremely overrated.
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I decided a while ago to not get involved with a religion. I have enough to worry about. Whatever happens when I die (if anything) should reflect what I've done here. If I get cast into 'hell' for no good reason, then the powers that be that decided so don't really deserve my time anyways. :doubt:
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Being good is extremely overrated.
Nah... I don't think you'd say that if you lived where I do.
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Being good is extremely overrated.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Being good is extremely overrated.
Why do you say that?
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Being good is extremely overrated.
Why do you say that?
no good deed goes unpunished.
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I decided a while ago to not get involved with a religion. I have enough to worry about. Whatever happens when I die (if anything) should reflect what I've done here. If I get cast into 'hell' for no good reason, then the powers that be that decided so don't really deserve my time anyways. :doubt:
This is the kind of "worry" that I really fret. Early indoctrinated people will always bear that psychological mark of slight scare of the red glow boogeyman inside the volcano, who will bring you down to eternal punishment. It may not be a common daily thing, but it is burning quietly in the back of the mind. This is psychological abuse by a terrible theological tradition.
Why do you say that?
Contrary to widespread mythology and hollywood brainwashing, the girls always prefer the naughty ones.
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Girls don't really lead to feelings of happiness and fulfillment the way people seem to think, however.
There's always the idea that something you don't have will make you happy. Flossies who enjoy being belittled are one of those things. Sex is fun, sadistic sex is funner, but in the end you're left with a smell on your pillow and still no reason for contentment.
EDIT:
One of the most depressing things you can do is to go against yourself to get laid.
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I can see you are all in very healthy relationships.....
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Disclaimer: In general, I try not to get into religious discussions online, as it's hard to not come off as nuts, so I'll make this short.
Hell, as the popular image of eternal fire and torment, does not exist. The word translated as "hell" is Sheol in Hebrew and Hades in Greek. In the Bible, it's just the condition of being dead, or the grave. The torment part was a concept adapted from the Greek and Roman religions by the church long after the death of Jesus, and from misinterpreting a few verses in Revelation.
Example:
1) Job asked to be concealed in Sheol, to avoid the torment of living. Did he want to be tormented?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2014:13&version=NASB
2) Jesus, for the three days he was dead, was considered to be in Hades.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202:27&version=NASB
This
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+1
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I can see you are all in very healthy relationships.....
I don't agree with him on those grounds as well, but I figured it was easier to disagree with the premise ( access to vagina = happy ) than with his cynicism of women.
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Girls don't really lead to feelings of happiness and fulfillment the way people seem to think, however.
And you take life way too seriously. As evidence, your seriousness regarding my comment.
There's always the idea that something you don't have will make you happy. Flossies who enjoy being belittled are one of those things. Sex is fun, sadistic sex is funner, but in the end you're left with a smell on your pillow and still no reason for contentment.
In the end we are all dead. Might as well enjoy it while it lasts ;).
One of the most depressing things you can do is to go against yourself to get laid.
So is pessimism. Lighten up.
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The whole passage of Job is one of the most atheistic passages of the old testament. I like it ;).
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Being good is extremely overrated.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
which is exactly why i do nothing, unless of course the thing i do is evil.
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I suppose if there is some sort of great beyond and we don't just live, die and end up as worm food and thats it, I'd like to think their is some kind of organization and karmic justice in place. Otherwise the afterlife would be a pretty uncomfortable place if everybody ends up there; the innocent and monsters alike :P
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I like to believe that the universe is cyclical and that we repeat our lives indefinitely
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Now that would be my definition of hell.
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I believe I exist.
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Now that would be my definition of hell.
Could be cool, especially if you could tap into the skill sets you had learned in previous lives.
Actually that could make for a nifty story. Basically someone unlocks how to tap into previous lives skill sets and uses that to their advantage but eventually starts to drown in the morass of their previous lives actions and experiences and begins to lose their grip on reality.
..oh wait I think Dune already did that.
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I suppose if there is some sort of great beyond and we don't just live, die and end up as worm food and thats it, I'd like to think their is some kind of organization and karmic justice in place. Otherwise the afterlife would be a pretty uncomfortable place if everybody ends up there; the innocent and monsters alike :P
What makes you so certain you would end up in the "right" place? Pathetic creatures, these homo sapiens are. Always thinking they are entitled to something...
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What makes you so certain you would end up in the "right" place? Pathetic creatures, these homo sapiens are. Always thinking they are entitled to something...
I don't see anything in his post that claims rightness. Merely order.
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What makes you so certain you would end up in the "right" place? Pathetic creatures, these homo sapiens are. Always thinking they are entitled to something...
I don't see anything in his post that claims rightness. Merely order.
... because that's something you'll be interested in when you pass the gates of hell. He he he-
On a lighter note:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC6UrMTC73A&feature=related
(Check the jesus one, it's even funnier)
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... because that's something you'll be interested in when you pass the gates of hell. He he he-
Probably. I'd hate to think being sent to eternal damnation doesn't have a system.
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... because that's something you'll be interested in when you pass the gates of hell. He he he-
Probably. I'd hate to think being sent to eternal damnation doesn't have a system.
...and in what way would that alleviate your suffering?
"Ahhh, I'm burning alive and being poked, eaten, cooked, and raped every single minute, but at least I know that there's a system! Somewhere...."
Yeah, that'll do...
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Being good is extremely overrated.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid.
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I suppose if there is some sort of great beyond and we don't just live, die and end up as worm food and thats it, I'd like to think their is some kind of organization and karmic justice in place. Otherwise the afterlife would be a pretty uncomfortable place if everybody ends up there; the innocent and monsters alike :P
What makes you so certain you would end up in the "right" place? Pathetic creatures, these homo sapiens are. Always thinking they are entitled to something...
I'm not so much concerned for myself, I just figure it would suck for example if the people sent to Auschwitz had to spend eternity with Himmler n' co because their isn't any sort of order in the afterlife and it's just a giant sea of souls.
..and seriously if your going to post like that you'd better be dressed like this at your 'puter or you're a poser and most defs have no cred.
(http://www.scifitv.com.au/Content/Blog/Pictures/_525/star_trek_Q.jpg)
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What about if a guy looses an arm, will the arm wait for him in heaven until he dies?
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I suppose it's my fate to be the galaxy's whipping boy. Oh, heavy is the burden of being me
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Girls don't really lead to feelings of happiness and fulfillment the way people seem to think, however.
And you take life way too seriously. As evidence, your seriousness regarding my comment.
There's always the idea that something you don't have will make you happy. Flossies who enjoy being belittled are one of those things. Sex is fun, sadistic sex is funner, but in the end you're left with a smell on your pillow and still no reason for contentment.
In the end we are all dead. Might as well enjoy it while it lasts ;).
One of the most depressing things you can do is to go against yourself to get laid.
So is pessimism. Lighten up.
You showed no indication of joking. I was thinking you were making a serious debate point; clearly you were not.
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You showed no indication of joking
So if I don't put a smiley somewhere in my lines, you'll take everything I say seriously, regardless of content?
Hmm. Interesting.
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Being good is extremely overrated.
Contrary to widespread mythology and hollywood brainwashing, the girls always prefer the naughty ones.
There is nothing in this statement that, in the context of a religious discussion, would mark it as a joke. You actually just sounded like a nihilist (and depressed to boot) to me; not someone sitting around trying at humor. Inflections are not text portable, sir.
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...and in what way would that alleviate your suffering?
You assume that's my interest. I'm in hell, I don't think that's a reasonable objective. (Though arguably, the knowledge that something is deserved does make it easier to bear.) So rather, if I'm going to go to hell, there damn well better be a reason.
I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense, etc.
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...and in what way would that alleviate your suffering?
You assume that's my interest. I'm in hell, I don't think that's a reasonable objective. (Though arguably, the knowledge that something is deserved does make it easier to bear.) So rather, if I'm going to go to hell, there damn well better be a reason.
... or else? .... for what purpose? Alleviation that justice has been made? How on earth can be tossed to a damning torturing place for all eternity be justified by any kind of principle resembling "justice"? It's like nuking a whole continent because a fly dared sneeze. Totally out of proportion. If there is a "reason", it is not reasonable, by definition. Thus it won't matter.
I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense, etc.
No you can't, that's the point of hell, ahem ;).
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Just wanna point out that Satan was orignally considered a fair and just protector of the damned, whose character was later simplified down for the simpletons back in the middle ages. If I remember correctly, at least. :nervous:
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Just wanna point out that Satan was orignally considered a fair and just protector of the damned, whose character was later simplified down for the simpletons back in the middle ages. If I remember correctly, at least. :nervous:
wrong. Satan was always a pretty bad guy. he was something like loki only worse.
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Huh. Ok. :nod:
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wasn't satan an archaengel of god, his preferred actually?
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wasn't satan an archaengel of god, his preferred actually?
according to Ezekiel, yes, but that before he tricked Eve into disobeying God.
The name Satan literally means "opposing" or "Accusing". He accuses God of being a dick and accuses humans of following God just so he is nice to them. Its all explained in the book of Job (sorta).
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Most of the **** about Satan and Hell was made up by Milton and Dante.
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Most of the **** about Satan and Hell was made up by Milton and Dante.
yes. Thats why we think of him as a little red guy wit horns and hooves instead of a dragon with (6?) heads.
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Most of the **** about Satan and Hell was made up by Milton and Dante.
And all the rest was made up by someone else.
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Most of the **** about Satan and Hell was made up by Milton and Dante.
And all the rest was made up by someone else.
This is true in the sense that most of it does not come from the Bible. However I doubt that's what you meant.
Speaking as an atheist, if the atheists on this forum could learn to shut up about their beliefs the same way the Christians did several years ago, we could have much less annoying discussions. It's a shame to see the allegedly rational humanist modernists lagging behind those bible-thumping Neanderthals, who've all managed to not mention Jesus every other post.
Stop shoving your beliefs into people's faces, you're just creating friction and fostering an unpleasant environment for the believers.
Also turn off your word filters, they're for babies.
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Most of the **** about Satan and Hell was made up by Milton and Dante.
And all the rest was made up by someone else.
This is true in the sense that most of it does not come from the Bible. However I doubt that's what you meant.
You doubt well, general sir. I was being facetious, but then so were you when speaking about Milton and Dante. Who are you to deny that these gentlemen had metaphysical insights as good or even better than Job or others?
As far as I am concerned, they are as valid and as original (or if you prefer, as "derivative") as the writings inside the bible.
Speaking as an atheist, if the atheists on this forum could learn to shut up about their beliefs the same way the Christians did several years ago, we could have much less annoying discussions.
Why are you sniping at me like this for being on topic? The thread's topic is "opinions on the existence of hell". I'm voicing mine. Am I in the wrong to voice my opinions on the matter, unless I make the politically correct agnostic caveats all over the place? Must I start every sentence with the redundant "In my humble and ignorant opinion..."?
Help me here, I am at a loss.
It's a shame to see the allegedly rational humanist modernists lagging behind those bible-thumping Neanderthals, who've all managed to not mention Jesus every other post.
Notice that you are showing way more condescendence towards them than I have ever did here. I am discussing ideas, you are demeaning believers. Come on.
Stop shoving your beliefs into people's faces, you're just creating friction and fostering an unpleasant environment for the believers.
Also turn off your word filters, they're for babies.
I'll do as ordered, general. You're the mod here. Also, I wasn't aware that the filter was changeable. It was standard when I reached here. I'm sorry if what reaches my eyes offends you so much.
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Why are you sniping at me like this for being on topic? The thread's topic is "opinions on the existence of hell". I'm voicing mine. Am I in the wrong to voice my opinions on the matter, unless I make the politically correct agnostic caveats all over the place? Must I start every sentence with the redundant "In my humble and ignorant opinion..."?
If you're going to express an opinion on a belief like this, learn to do it in a way that is inclusive and polite (I think that the mythology of Milton and Dante is just as culturally relevant as the mythology of the Bible) rather than snippy and demeaning (lol, it was all made up). Personally I believe that religious beliefs are mythology propagated for utility, but parading around trumpeting about how it's all made up is just going to piss off my Christian friends. Those people use this forum too, we don't need to be tools to them (sup mongoose)
Everybody who uses the phrase 'politically correct' is literally Hitler, it's usually a weasel phrase for 'I want to be a huge jerk'.
It's easy to cry 'bias!' when the other side dominates discourse, and easy to get smug and complacent when it's your side doing it.
You doubt well, general sir. I was being facetious, but then so were you when speaking about Milton and Dante. Who are you to deny that these gentlemen had metaphysical insights as good or even better than Job or others?
As far as I am concerned, they are as valid and as original (or if you prefer, as "derivative") as the writings inside the bible.
If you think that has anything to do with the remark I made about Milton and Dante you missed the point pretty badly. Feel free to go back and think about it until you get it.
Notice that you are showing way more condescendence towards them than I have ever did here. I am discussing ideas, you are demeaning believers. Come on.
Are you spergin' out here or what, I feel like it would take either someone raised by wolves or a cerebral lesion to think I was demeaning believers there
I'll do as ordered, general. You're the mod here. Also, I wasn't aware that the filter was changeable. It was standard when I reached here. I'm sorry if what reaches my eyes offends you so much.
That was more directed at Titan, who you quoted, but I'm not giving any orders, just declaring anyone who uses the word filter a HUGE BABY
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Why are you sniping at me like this for being on topic? The thread's topic is "opinions on the existence of hell". I'm voicing mine. Am I in the wrong to voice my opinions on the matter, unless I make the politically correct agnostic caveats all over the place? Must I start every sentence with the redundant "In my humble and ignorant opinion..."?
If you're going to express an opinion on a belief like this, learn to do it in a way that is inclusive and polite (I think that the mythology of Milton and Dante is just as culturally relevant as the mythology of the Bible) rather than snippy and demeaning (lol, it was all made up). Personally I believe that religious beliefs are mythology propagated for utility, but parading around trumpeting about how it's all made up is just going to piss off my Christian friends.
I read your sentence as something in the lines of "milton and dante are not cannon, they are fannon, and shouldn't be taken seriously, the real satan is described in a place where things were not "made up"". I also read it slightly in the sense of "shut up already about milton and dante's stuff. he's ridiculous!"
I do not think I have reading comprehension problems, but I understand you meant something different. My remark was questioning exactly that line of enquiry.
Everybody who uses the phrase 'politically correct' is literally Hitler, it's usually a weasel phrase for 'I want to be a huge jerk'.
So I'm Hitler? Damn.
Notice that you are showing way more condescendence towards them than I have ever did here. I am discussing ideas, you are demeaning believers. Come on.
Are you spergin' out here or what, I feel like it would take either someone raised by wolves or a cerebral lesion to think I was demeaning believers there
Really. Look at what you said here:
It's a shame to see the allegedly rational humanist modernists lagging behind those bible-thumping Neanderthals...
Am I misreading you again? Must buy some glasses.
Anyway, this is way off topic. I'll be gentler, and quiet. Promise.
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cool :yes:
and yeah the point was that it's interesting that so much of the imagery from milton and dante is now considered part of christian eschatology when none of it came from the bible, idrgaf about whether any of it should be taken seriously since it's all fiction to me (but you wanted to get up in my grille because you thought i was a true believer)
CANON damn it
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Anyway...
Most of the **** about Satan and Hell was made up by Milton and Dante.
yes. Thats why we think of him as a little red guy wit horns and hooves instead of a dragon with (6?) heads.
But wouldn't it be more awesome if all religious drawings despiting satan had something like this?
(http://www.3aka.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/three-headed-dragon1.jpg)
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cannon
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/TsarCannon.jpg)
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(but you wanted to get up in my grille because you thought i was a true believer)
Just want to reply to this and I promise I'll keep quiet for a few hours more. No, I did not think you were a "true believer", for you are (as far as I've gathered) a writer, or at least a fan of good fantasy literature. Most people that I've met in this category all view religion in the same way they see any other fantasy books.
Again, you thought I was targetting you, I wasn't. I was only targetting the idea of canon vs fannon. Which is a whole other debate!
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Anyway...
Most of the **** about Satan and Hell was made up by Milton and Dante.
yes. Thats why we think of him as a little red guy wit horns and hooves instead of a dragon with (6?) heads.
But wouldn't it be more awesome if all religious drawings despiting satan had something like this?
*snip*
I actually have no idea what the **** Topgun is talking about, because in Dante Satan/Lucifer is this huge badass demon thing with three heads, and in Milton he's a shapeshifter.
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Anyway...
Most of the **** about Satan and Hell was made up by Milton and Dante.
yes. Thats why we think of him as a little red guy wit horns and hooves instead of a dragon with (6?) heads.
But wouldn't it be more awesome if all religious drawings despiting satan had something like this?
*snip*
I actually have no idea what the **** Topgun is talking about, because in Dante Satan/Lucifer is this huge badass demon thing with three heads, and in Milton he's a shapeshifter.
revelation 12:3. And I thought the traditional goat satan guy was dante's creation, apparently not.
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I've never really believed in the existence of Hell as a place, because everyone's definition of Hell depends on themselves, and the idea of just hurting someone for eternity seems a bit..well.. unoriginal and spiteful even for God.
But then, I've always had a suspicion that God and Satan are the same being, it's us that chose to divide them up into seperate ones otherwise it held an uncomfortable mirror up to humanity ;)
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Anyway...
Most of the **** about Satan and Hell was made up by Milton and Dante.
yes. Thats why we think of him as a little red guy wit horns and hooves instead of a dragon with (6?) heads.
But wouldn't it be more awesome if all religious drawings despiting satan had something like this?
*snip*
I actually have no idea what the **** Topgun is talking about, because in Dante Satan/Lucifer is this huge badass demon thing with three heads, and in Milton he's a shapeshifter.
revelation 12 and 13. And I thought the traditional goat satan guy was dante's creation, apparently not.
I know where you got the huge dragon from, it's the goat satan thing I wasn't clear on, I'm pretty sure it's some fusion of pagan imagery.
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The goat imagery came from Middle-Ages Europe, because the predominant pagan religions were of Pan, the Goat-headed god of Fertility, Reproduction and Growth ( Leftover from Roman Occupation), and Herne, the Stag-headed God of hunting. High priests on both the Pagan religions used to wear horns and hooves during the religious festivals, so the Church used that image to mark them as 'Satan Worshippers' and kill them.
Edit: It should also be noted that the Pan celebrations in particular were very much the opposite with regards to behaviour to the very Puritanical stage that Christianity was going through, so it became a special target, as well as the source of the claim that Witches sealed their bond with Satan by having sex with him.
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A shapshifter actually makes the most "sense" since the serpent of genesis is supposed to be satan. But I like the imagery of Archangel Micheal fighting a giant dragon better.
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Not to mention that Angels are frequently shown to be shape-shifters, appearing as columns of light, flames etc. Since Satan was originally of Angelic stock, it would make sense that he could also do so.
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Heh, the direction of this conversation is reminding me of some of the content in C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy, which is a really good read if you're down with Lewis's Christian-apologeticism-via-fantasy style.
(Also, Battuta, I kind of chuckled that you mentioned my name, because I honestly haven't even voted in the poll yet. :p)
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... or else? .... for what purpose? Alleviation that justice has been made? How on earth can be tossed to a damning torturing place for all eternity be justified by any kind of principle resembling "justice"? It's like nuking a whole continent because a fly dared sneeze. Totally out of proportion. If there is a "reason", it is not reasonable, by definition. Thus it won't matter.
Your argument is one I was making before you joined these boards, and continue to make.
However it's also irrelevant. If Hell, and by extension God, do exist, then all the moral outrage you or I can summon on the subject are utterly meaningless as power grows from the barrel of a metaphysical gun and you're not going to get a bigger gun than eternal torment. At this point, if this point exists, there is literally but one hope: that there is a workable system which can be used to our benefit.
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A shapshifter actually makes the most "sense" since the serpent of genesis is supposed to be satan. But I like the imagery of Archangel Micheal fighting a giant dragon better.
Well, if I had to fight Archangel Miceal, I would shapeshift in a giant dragon :nervous:.
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... or else? .... for what purpose? Alleviation that justice has been made? How on earth can be tossed to a damning torturing place for all eternity be justified by any kind of principle resembling "justice"? It's like nuking a whole continent because a fly dared sneeze. Totally out of proportion. If there is a "reason", it is not reasonable, by definition. Thus it won't matter.
Your argument is one I was making before you joined these boards, and continue to make.
However it's also irrelevant. If Hell, and by extension God, do exist, then all the moral outrage you or I can summon on the subject are utterly meaningless as power grows from the barrel of a metaphysical gun and you're not going to get a bigger gun than eternal torment. At this point, if this point exists, there is literally but one hope: that there is a workable system which can be used to our benefit.
Translation: you just hope not to be on the bad side of things. Thus it won't matter if there's a "system" or not. You just hope that if this thing even exists, you don't get to be in hell. I don't see where "order" has anything to do with that.... and that's fine, I agree with the sentiment
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I think it's kind of rude to say 'translation', implying that what he said was somehow either unclear or duplicitous. :colbert:
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I'm just tired, Battuta. I've slept 4 hours a day the past week, and english is not my first language. I actually have to think before writing, and there I was just lazy. "translation" seemed a quick fast way to say what I wanted.
But I get your point
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It's cool, stuff happens. The implication of that kind of use of 'translation' in colloquial English is usually one of uncovering a second, intentionally hidden meaning that works against the speaker.
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A shapshifter actually makes the most "sense" since the serpent of genesis is supposed to be satan. But I like the imagery of Archangel Micheal fighting a giant dragon better.
Well, if I had to fight Archangel Miceal, I would shapeshift in a giant dragon :nervous:.
Something more like this;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-851600521180419270#
!
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Translation: you just hope not to be on the bad side of things. Thus it won't matter if there's a "system" or not. You just hope that if this thing even exists, you don't get to be in hell. I don't see where "order" has anything to do with that.... and that's fine, I agree with the sentiment
Actually I'm going to say that you've gone one step beyond what Battuta says and are being actively duplicitous as, considering I've already agreed with your argument, I'm ****ed either way. It's much too late for me.
So no, I don't hope not to be on the bad side of things. I've already selected an option that precludes that. (Again if anything we are discussing actually exists, which by saying I am selecting yet another option that will result in the exact opposite of what you're saying.) My concern is for humanity as a whole. It will matter to them if there is a system or an order to it; if they are completely arbitrary in selecting who does and does not go to heaven or hell then you have literally no control over your own fate.
On the other hand if there is a system, you at least have a choice. And a means to save yourself.
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Assuming you understand the system.
The correct system.
Unless it's completely relative and not something you need to be aware of.
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Assuming you understand the system.
I'm a secular humanist, don't even try telling me "it's not something we can understand".
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Any secular humanist should be well aware that the possibility exists that there is information, especially in cosmology, which may be permanently lost to us.
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Any secular humanist should be well aware that the possibility exists that there is information, especially in cosmology, which may be permanently lost to us.
Yes. But not in an ongoing process.
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Well, if the information is dispensed by notional omnipotent beings I'm not sure we can expect to have any access to it. Everything we've been delivered could be a lie. It's not a particularly useful concept in terms of providing utility to afterlife-handling strategies, though.
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Exactly, that is why the only correct philosophical position is one of truth relativism, regarding all metaphysics as "fantasy". And NGTM, I get your point about humanity, sorry if I was rude.
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Negative sir.
regarding all metaphysics as "fantasy"
=/=
the only correct philosophical position is one of truth relativism. . .
A humanist can still have some very strong black and white morals, anyone who values conciousness for that matter. For instance , that killing another sentient being is bad.
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Exactly, that is why the only correct philosophical position is one of truth relativism, regarding all metaphysics as "fantasy".
Oh, come off it. Condescension has no place in a philosophical discussion.
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Iv read a lot of crap sofar. Not one pro hell response. Come on guys, if theirs a Christianity related argument, someones got to get me. Gotta have one pro God\christianity response in the lot.
I believe in hell. It is not 'just to scare people into behaving' or to 'keep people inline'. It is real. Its the place Satan will be sent as a prison for him and his followers.
God is merciful and just. Being flawless he has some leeway with the whole topic of salvation. His logic is above our own.
Salvation is hard to find, and is on the narrow road. Thats not saying 95% of ppl are doomed to hell. Salvation is found in beleiving Jesus is Gods son who was sent to die for your sins. But those who have never heard of Jesus I suppose will be 'exempt' as apart of God being merciful and just.
Hell is not just a concept. Christianity is not flawd.
And before you all jump all over this post, taking turns T-bagging it, please come up with a clear concise list of all topics mentioned u'd like to collectively ask me.
EDIT:
Page 1 rebuttals.
...But I think it's about love. So **** Hell, if God really is a compassionate person, he wouldn't send people just because they loved people and didn't hear Jesus tell them to.
Hell is for those who do not believe in Jesus (after being told about him). God does not send ppl to hell for loving or not, thats not the point. Death and hell are punishment for sins. Sins cannot stand before God, thus cannot be in heavon.
I think a lot of what christanity is was made for the time when it orginally started and some time after that. I think this is an example of it being off with the time. but that means that culture would determine the validty of religion and isnt that sorta counter to the whole point of religion?
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The bible never came with an expiration date. Gods words stand firm through all time. Culture does not determine if the bible is true or not. And its not about getting ppl to join the christian religion. It is about personal belief in Jesus dying for your sins. Accepting his payment for your sins cleanses you of your sins.
No one will burn, hell is like a super-bogeyman, its "existence" is merely for putting people into good behavior.
.....Alternatively, you can think like this: if you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing.
Wrong sir. Christianity is not about good works, or earning your way into heavon. It never says that. Jesus preaches aganist that himself at one point. Its not, dont sin or sin less-- we all have already sinned. Were born into sin as the bible phrases it. Were already in need of Jesus sacrifice.
Actually my biggest complaint about Christianity is the existence of hell.
For example, why hell? If God is reputedly described as some perfect daddy who can rescue everyone, sadly, God is also portrayed as a "God of Justice". And what is that "Justice"? Why, that is a declaration of only "few" mortals who shall be able to be "saved", as described in the above passage.
Furthermore, a critical point in Christianity is that Jesus was supposed to have "died for our sins". If He truly did, then it's somehow surprising that Earthly logic goes on, people do bad stuff again and again.
There was no hell before Satan screwed things up. Why are their few saved? Hard to say. This world is sorta satans domain for now. He has put a veil over many peoples eyes from seeing 'the light'. Beleivers are 'set apart' from tis world. Not of this world.
Were still humans, with human logic. Its how we are. Born into sin and a sinful nature ever since Adam. Adam set that in motion. Bible says to repent and turn from your sin when you see it. "Die daily" to desires of the flesh. Constant battle. I think peter himself mentioned doing what he didnt want to do and not doign what he did want to do.
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I was reading this and debated on chiming in, and then I thought "what the hell?"
I'd like to make two points, the first is that the Christian concept of hell goes hand in hand with the wrathful God of the old testament. Kinda makes me glad that he mellowed out after having a kid. We went from people being turned into pillars of salt and wiping out the earth by flood to being hippies and saying "hey man, just love each other and all is cool." Maybe it wasn't having a kid that did it, maybe it just happened at the same time that God put gel inserts in his sandals and is finally gellin'.
I don't consider that to be blasphemy, God created us in his image so he has a sense of humor, he's probably rolling around laughing his ass off on some cloud over that quip.
The second point.
If you believe that God exists, and I do in some fashion, then you really need to give serious thought to a few things. Things like When Cain killed Able and fled where did he go? He fled to a city of Man. Where did these other men come from? or, If God is all knowing, and all seeing, why create Satan in the first place knowing the outcome? or Wouldn't it have been easier if he hadn't given us a free will?
Let's look at the last one. We have a free will. We can choose between right and wrong. We can choose wrong. We can choose to do wrong. We can choose.
God created us to love and worship him, but gave us a free will with which to decide if we wanted to. We were not made to be forced to love him. Yet if we choose not to, we are eternally damned. Not entirely accurate. In the Bible it says "It is better to have not known me than to have known me and turned your back." To me this doesn't say "If you've heard of me, you better love me or else." It says, "to have known me." I know who Obama is, but I don't know him. I know who my boss is, I've spoken with him, but do I know him? No. I don't. Should I be punished for believing in God, but exercising his gift to me and choosing not to get to know him? I don't think so, and according to the Holy Bible, neither does he. Remember, man is fallable, and so then are the words he writes. Why am I not mature enough to read the books that were removed from the Bible? Why am I not deemed mature enough? Is it because by reading those I may be enlightened a bit, and with enlightening of the masses comes a loss of power to the organized church? I don't believe in the church, or in religion. They are just man made traditions on how to worship. I believe in God, but I think I've justified why I don't believe in hell.
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However it's also irrelevant. If Hell, and by extension God, do exist, then all the moral outrage you or I can summon on the subject are utterly meaningless as power grows from the barrel of a metaphysical gun and you're not going to get a bigger gun than eternal torment. At this point, if this point exists, there is literally but one hope: that there is a workable system which can be used to our benefit.
:nod: (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+4:11-13&version=NIV)
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However it's also irrelevant. If Hell, and by extension God, do exist, then all the moral outrage you or I can summon on the subject are utterly meaningless as power grows from the barrel of a metaphysical gun and you're not going to get a bigger gun than eternal torment. At this point, if this point exists, there is literally but one hope: that there is a workable system which can be used to our benefit.
How do you figure? Moral outrage, being (from my perspective) a very important aspect of my ego, and presumably that of others as well, is very important; it doesn't matter if anything comes of it or not.
Assuming no afterlife, if Stalin dying without facing the consequences of killing millions didn't make him right.
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Oh, how I love these threads, I really do! :yes:
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...But I think it's about love. So **** Hell, if God really is a compassionate person, he wouldn't send people just because they loved people and didn't hear Jesus tell them to.
Hell is for those who do not believe in Jesus (after being told about him). God does not send ppl to hell for loving or not, thats not the point. Death and hell are punishment for sins. Sins cannot stand before God, thus cannot be in heavon.
That wasn't my point.
I mean anyone and everyone who didn't live in Judea in the first century AD. If God sends people to Hell for the petty reason of not believing that one person is the besterest of them all, despite that many other people have said the gist of what Jesus said at some point, then is he really compassionate?
Muslims who believe in charity as a religious duty, Buddhists who believe in a sacred goal of ending all human suffering, or even pantheists who are tolerant of other faiths, they're all going to Hell because they didn't believe in a divine Christ (even through incredulity or through not being exposed to Christianity at the time), even if they were upstanding, moral people?
The problem I've always had with the "nobody comes to the Father except through me" beliefs is that people take it far too literally. "Through me" could also very well mean through following his teachings of just being a good person.
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However it's also irrelevant. If Hell, and by extension God, do exist, then all the moral outrage you or I can summon on the subject are utterly meaningless as power grows from the barrel of a metaphysical gun and you're not going to get a bigger gun than eternal torment. At this point, if this point exists, there is literally but one hope: that there is a workable system which can be used to our benefit.
:nod: (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+4:11-13&version=NIV)
Let me guess, that smiley links to information on Mohammed
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It basically says 'if you ain't christian you ****ed.'
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lol Paul. One man's opinion on scripture canonized and taken as fact.
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http://www.cracked.com/blog/8-real-photographs-that-prove-hell-exists-earth/
Take note, however, there may be less fundamentalistic paths in interpreting the Bible, and I say I'd take those...
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http://www.cracked.com/blog/8-real-photographs-that-prove-hell-exists-earth/
Take note, however, there may be less fundamentalistic paths in interpreting the Bible, and I say I'd take those...
PROOF!
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http://www.cracked.com/blog/8-real-photographs-that-prove-hell-exists-earth/
Take note, however, there may be less fundamentalistic paths in interpreting the Bible, and I say I'd take those...
.... because your choice of interpretation will sway God's wrath when you die and be judged.
Then again, you might just piss him off trying to "reinterpret" his frakkin message.
Thread lightly ;)
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NEWS FLASH!!! HEAR YE!!! SO MANY ARE GOING TO HELL EVERYDAY!!! OMG OMG OMGGG!!!
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billions_of_people_going_to_hell.htm
WARNING TO ALL BORN-AGAINS: Below is a message of mine that expresses how particularly annoyed I am by your fundamentalistic beliefs. My apologies. But now the realizations of these 100% literal interpretation of yours in the Bible is something I find irritating and illogical, or so I think. I still respect your beliefs, in the way that I try to respect all faiths throughout the Earth. But seriously.
There are an estimated 6 billion people in the world, that’s 6,000,000,000 people! The average life expectancy of a person is estimated to be around 70 years of age. With all the natural disasters, people smoking, the global aids epidemic, terrorism, drug overdoses, liquor related deaths, accidents, murders, war, et cetera. I’m sure the average life expectancy is much lower.
Visit a cemetery sometime and you’ll be surprised how many people have died at a much younger age. Nevertheless, let’s suppose that the average person lives to be 70 years old. 6,000,000,000 divided by 70 equals 85,714,285. This means that 85,000,000 people, on average, die every year. If we divide 85,000,000 by 365 days in a year, this means that an average of 232,876 people are dying every day in this world. Are you shocked? You'd never think from listening to the daily news that so many were dying.
I’ve never heard anything like this on radio or TV, but it's a fact. Every day in this world, 232,000 people fulfill their appointment with death. Could you imagine reading the front page of a newspaper and seeing something like... “232,000 PEOPLE DEAD!”? It happens every single day my friend! The reason you’ll never see something like this is because it isn’t glamorous. People like to hear about the one person who was shot to death, or the CEO that jumped out of his office window.
The news media isn’t interested in how many people are dying around the world. There are natural deaths occurring all over the earth every second, 24 hours a day, but we never hear of them. Deaths resulting from crime, war, disaster, sickness, injury, poison, disease and starvation are seldom heard of from other countries. We only hear of the tip of the ice-berg!
You can’t disagree with the math! 6,000,000,000 people will all be dead in 100 years! (ok, maybe 99.9%).
How many people live to be 100? NOT MANY! By dividing 70 into 6,000,000,000, we found that 85,000,000 humans will die every year on average (more or less from year to year, but all will be dead in approximately 70 years). We also found that dividing 365 days into 85,000,000 means that an average of 232,000 humans die every day.
Now, let’s say that one in ten people are genuine born-again Believers. We are clearly told in Matthew 7:14 that few people ever make it to heaven!, “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT” (Matthew 7:14; Luke 13:23,24). How tragic! How horrible! Honestly, I would be very surprised if more than one out of every hundred people are truly saved and on their way to Heaven!
Consider the billion people in China who know not the Lord Jesus Christ! Consider the countless hundreds of millions of Arabs (Islamic Muslims) who worship Allah and the prophet Mohammed. Consider the billion Catholics around the world that worship Mary and are trying to earn their way into Heaven through the keeping of the Seven-Sacraments and good works.
On and on, religion and more religion! Countless billions of people are trusting in their religion to save them instead of the Lord Jesus Christ. Surely, nine out of ten people in this wicked world are bound for a Godless, eternal hell. I have no doubts whatsoever that 90% of the people in this world are going to Hell. Why? For one simple reason friend, they do not have the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.
Their sins have not been forgiven. We estimated that 232,876 humans die every day on average. 232,876 minus 10 % equals 209,588 people that perish into hell fire and destruction every single day that passes. So roughly, 200,000 HUMANS PLUNGE INTO HELL FIRE EACH AND EVERY DAY! We also see that 23,287 people (10%) make it to Heaven each day on average.
The number of people which die every day can’t be denied! You can argue concerning the percentage of people going to Heaven verses Hell; however, Matthew 7:14 clearly teaches that only a "FEW" people will enter into Heaven. "MANY" are going to Hell. As I mentioned, I'd be surprised if more than 1% of the population are born-again believers.
If you don't believe the Bible, then you had better hope to God that your right; If you believe the Bible "just enough" to obey it and call upon the saving name of Jesus Christ for salvation and the forgiveness of sins--you will be safe! We all must die and it’s guaranteed that were not going to escape death! It’s just a matter OF TIME! Prepare to meet thy God!
Salvation is not found in religion, but in a person—Jesus Christ!
Let's think a bit further on this shall we...
If 232,876 people die every day (on average), then how many people die per second? Well, 232,876 divided by 24 hours = 9,703 people die every hour. 9,703 divided by 60 minutes = 161 people die every minute. 161 divided by 60 seconds = 2.6 (we'll say 2) people die every second. Can you imagine this? 2 people die in this world every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year! It's adds up to 85,000,000 people a year.
Let's assume that I'm right concerning the percentages. Let's just assume that only 1% of the population is truly born-again. This means that 2,328 people enter into Heaven each and every day. And sadly, 230,548 people plunge into hellfire each and every day.
What percentage of people do you believe are truly saved? If you say "ALL," then you are obviously NOT a believer. 1st John 2:22 teaches that anyone who denies Jesus Christ is a LIAR. That means all Islamic Muslims are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Muslims deny that Jesus ever died on a cross. There are an estimated 1,300,000,000 Muslims in the world.
All followers of Judaism are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Messiah. That's what the Bible teaches in 1st John 2:22. It's Jesus or Hell.
The question is: Do you believe that the Bible is God's Word? I do. By the way, the King James Bible is the only reliable English Bible that hasn't been corrupted by Satan.
There are another estimated 1,000,000,000 Catholics in the world, all who believe that Mary is able to give salvation, that the Seven-Sacraments are essential to salvation, that the pope is God upon the earth, that the priest has power to forgive sins and that good works can get them into Heaven. The Bible teaches that we are saved solely by Christ's righteousness, which is through faith in His precious literal, physical, blood that washes our sins away (1st Peter 1:18-19; Hebrews 9:12,24; Revelation 1:5; Romans 3:25).
I witnessed to a Catholic man once who said he didn't believe Jesus was almighty God. He's not a born-again believer. How sad! Most of the world has been deceived by false religion. Jesus is almighty God (John 1:1,14; John 10:33; John 14:1-3; 1st Timothy 3:16; Colossians 2:9; Revelation 1:8). Yes friend, billions of people are going to Hell. Each and every HOUR, roughly 9,500 people die. Thousands of those people go straight to Hell.
If you've never received Jesus as you personal Savior, please do so now. John 1:12, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” Being saved is very easy. Salvation happens when a person acknowledges their guilt of sin, coming to God on the basis of being a hell-deserving sinner; believing on Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, to forgive their sins. Acts 10:43, “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
Please understand—all one's good deeds, keeping of the Ten Commandments, water baptism, church membership, holy communion, penance, confirmation and praying are A ROAD TO HELL if you place any trust in them to save you. Salvation is solely by Christ's righteousness; and not by any self-righteousness of our own. Titus 3:5, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...” God DIDN'T give us the Ten Commandments to earn our way to Heaven; but rather, to show us our sinful condition and need for a Savior. Galatians 3:24, “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” Amen!
Don't rely upon anything or anyone other than the Son of God, Jesus, to forgive your sins. Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Whosoever means YOU!!! “Call” means “to appeal unto” i.e., “to go to Jesus to be saved.” If you come to the Savior, He will not turn you away (John 6:37). Isaiah 1:18 teaches that God will forgive the vilest sinner who comes through the Son of God. All that God the Father asks is that we come to Him through His dear Son for forgiveness (John 14:6).
Salvation is not a prayer! Salvation is not a decision. Salvation is not an experience. Salvation is a supernatural act of God in response to one's faith in Jesus Christ. Eternal life is freely given (Romans 5:15), freely offered (Romans 10:13), and freely received (Revelation 22:15).
To be saved, you simply stop trying to work your way to Heaven; and you rest in the finished work of Christ. That's what the Sabbath Day pictured in the Old Testament. Jesus is our Sabbath, in Whom we rest for salvation. The only way to Heaven is to come as a guilty sinner and cast one's self at the feet of Jesus for forgiveness. Romans 4:5-6, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.” Did you read that? ... HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!
You don't need to stop living in sin to be saved. Only a hypocrite would teach such a thing. Who can stop sinning? How much sin do you have to give up to be saved? Can anyone give up all their sins... sinful bad habits included? Even Jesus asked in John chapter 8, who is without sin among you? Salvation is not about us giving up our sins to be saved. Salvation is about us admitting that we are guilty, hell-deserving, sinners and therefore need a Savior to redeem us. Jesus has the nail-scarred hands and feet. Jesus is that Savior.
Then, when we are saved, God will work in our heart to make the necessary changes. A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance; and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith. Salvation is solely by Christ's righteousness (Romans 10:3-4; 2nd Corinthians 5:21; Matthew 6:33).
I find this message particularly annoying especially for the fact that Mr. Stewart, a good example for the general view of most Baptist Christians, believe that Catholicism generally involves worshipping Mary. I am a Catholic and I'm eager to refute that. Although we seek guidance in Mary and the saints, we still believe that Christ is our main Savior. So your argument is empty and pathetic.
Also, use your dang head, man. I mean, seriously, there are literally a massive number of faiths scattered across the globe. How are you sure that only one may be correct? How are you SURE????!!!
Your tremendously literal interpretation of the Bible reflects a medievalistic appearance of yours, when friars ruled over lands, fattened themselves and burned to death those who oppose them. I'm sorry to say, I hate that belief.
I challenge you. Try going into a satanistic moslem (oh no, how about Buddhist?) cult and find out for yourself; there are thousands of ways in how religion can be interpreted. Yeah. Believe me. All religions except your extremely fundamentalistic burn-the-witches-to-death Baptist faith are for Satan, right? Jeezuz is the only Guy who you should worship, right? Heh. Are you sure?
Sorry to say however I'm still confused with a portion of my own faith :lol:.
Summary:
"Youith mustith worshipeth Jesusith orith youith wilith dieith inith eternalith fireith becauseith theith Bibleith theith onlyith goodith bookith thatith existeth inith thiseth worldith saysith soith youith Catholicsith areith gonnaith goith toith Hellith becauseith you worshipeth Maryith ohith Iith dontith wannaith prayith thatith dangith rosaryith it'sith demonicith onlyith weith areith goingith toith Heavenith andith 99.9999%%%ith ofith theeth worldith isith goingith downith manith seriouslyith!"
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All I can say that he not only needs to read Hebrews 5:12, he needs to understand it on a deeper level than most. I'll save you the trouble and explain it.
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
It basically means that while this guy should be teaching, he again needs to be taught. He is like a baby who needs milk to nourish him, because he can't digest meat yet. This guy is obviously trying to digest the meat of God, but isn't ready. He better drink milk.
It's been my experience that most people who "know" God are so wrapped up in the fact they are doing God's will, that they forget what they are doing and instead follow a will of their own. I don't claim to know God, and in this capacity I have met very few who actually have the gift of teaching. To teach in this capacity you have to be able to see another point of view, and not discount it because it offends you. Far too many Christians fall short in this. To discount a person's point of view because it is distasteful is nothing more than vanity. To force your point of view on someone else is also vanity. I always find it ironic that we are told to be at peace, yet on Sunday in any given town you will find someone screaming at the congregation and red in the face. I know that when I am screamed at I go into a defensive posture, mentally, physically and spiritually. Once again, attacking someones beliefs will do nothing but force them to defend, and trust me on this one, you will never believe in something deeper than when you are forced to defend it.
I am a Christian. I am also a man who struggles with faith. I love science and because of it I have a problem with my own faith. I know, it's all but an oxymoron, but at least it's honest.
I think that is a lesson for the author of that article to learn. Telling someone that they are wrong isn't the answer, showing them light is. There are other problems I have with this whole concept, but those are for another time.
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Well, the way I see it, it's never been about what book you read, or what you call your God, or what direction you face when you pray, that's just Humans fulfilling their love of ritual and predictability. It's about who you are as a person.
To my mind if there is any force in the Universe who has power over Life and Death it would be an entity like God. If there is a sentient, judging God up there and he sees people Usurping him, making the life death decision for him whether He likes it or not, killing people that He created in His name, or passing Judgement on people (which implies that those people don't trust God's judgement in the first place) for following a different faith, then I suspect they will be in for a very unpleasant surprise when their time comes.
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Which "Guy" are you referring to?
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Mr. Stewart.
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Hmmm...I'm wondering if most HLP members are either ultra-liberal Christians, or atheists.
Religion may be different from Faith. Religion is man's effort to organize and spread their respective Faiths, while Faith is believing in one's own idol, whoever he may be. Many liberal Christians trust Faith more than religion because of the terrible wars and events that took place as a result of super-fundamentalism and different views. Therefore, I'll call myself a liberal Christian.
Actually I had some thought of you (ShadowWolf) referring to me as the criticizer. Frankly, I was a criticizer, and am a criticizer. Not in a horrible way, unlike that of the fat friars during the Crusades, but I'm quite opposed to the beliefs of super-fundamentalists. I'm no atheist, and am quite as opposed to atheism as to fundamentalistic religious views.
But, as I told you, I am, to a certain extent confused about my own Faith. Though Faith is actually widely controversial (as are all topics throughout the Earth) I choose to remain believing in Faith.
Personally, however, I was taught to believe that the Bible was "free from spiritual error" but am convinced that that may not be always the case. For example, do we sin whenever we see an attractive female? No, I don't think so. Many liberal Christians refute that portion of Matthew as a "writing of the author, and most probably not a teaching of Jesus". Honestly, I don't think anything is a sin unless it causes disorder and the like.
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Hmmm...I'm wondering if most HLP members are either ultra-liberal Christians, or atheists.
Those of us that aren't just sit back with some popcorn and watch the show.
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I don't have a 'religion' as such, if you are referring to rituals or symbology, that's just decoration anyway, but the question as to whether I believe in God is probably a far harder one to answer.
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Aren't atheists supposed to doubt the existence of God or any supernatural/paranormal being?
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Out and out atheists deny the existence of any Supreme being, agnostics tend to be on the fence, spiritualists tend to be more into a kind of non-sentient deity, often physically embodied by the Universe itself. At least, that's how I've always understood it.
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I am a Christian. I am also a man who struggles with faith. I love science and because of it I have a problem with my own faith. I know, it's all but an oxymoron, but at least it's honest
This bugs me, science is the studly of the natural world and describing how it works in as precise of terms as possible. Why should the study of the natural world, i.e. reality, conflict with one's faith?
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The easiest before coffee example is evolution vs creation. and now....coffee before work.
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I am a Christian. I am also a man who struggles with faith. I love science and because of it I have a problem with my own faith. I know, it's all but an oxymoron, but at least it's honest
This bugs me, science is the studly of the natural world and describing how it works in as precise of terms as possible. Why should the study of the natural world, i.e. reality, conflict with one's faith?
Because critical thinking is the enemy of fictional imagination that's indoctrinated as reality?
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I prefer 'Infinite possibilities in infinite diversity' ;)
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*coughs* ;o
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I have read attempts to reconcile science and God and while i applaud the effort, everything i've read comes from either a scientific point of view, or a religious point of view, and thus has left me more confused. I am as apt to defend science as I am my own faith, depending on which is attacked, and while some will call it wishy washy, or talking out both sides of my mouth, this isn't the case. At the moment of defense, I believe. So when I read these books, I read through skeptical eyes, knowing that I will mentally be defending one or the other. This is why I am seldom seen in these threads. I've gone toe to toe with Kazan, and with Liberator, and no good came from it. This isn't a "why bother", this is a "I'm tired of fighting me afterwards."
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Heh, I know, it seems odd borrowing philosophy from the Vulcans, but my beliefs tend to be a mish-mash of stuff I've picked up over the years and felt it chimed with my own ethics :)
The danger isn't really religion, never has been, it's organised religion, where someone tries to form an over-arching group to moderate how people worship their deity, because then it becomes like a Sports team, you have 'sides' to cheer on, you want your own team to 'win', you try to find more supporters for the club, you have rituals and chants that make you 'one of the team'.
That is the danger in my opinion.
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I have read attempts to reconcile science and God and while i applaud the effort, everything i've read comes from either a scientific point of view, or a religious point of view, and thus has left me more confused. I am as apt to defend science as I am my own faith, depending on which is attacked, and while some will call it wishy washy, or talking out both sides of my mouth, this isn't the case. At the moment of defense, I believe. So when I read these books, I read through skeptical eyes, knowing that I will mentally be defending one or the other. This is why I am seldom seen in these threads. I've gone toe to toe with Kazan, and with Liberator, and no good came from it. This isn't a "why bother", this is a "I'm tired of fighting me afterwards."
Well, even if God does not exist, it doesn't really hurt to have a role-model of a 'Perfect Person' to attempt to live up to. Maybe the secret of 'finding God' is not to look into a book, but to look into ourselves?
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My case seems to be virtually the same as ShadowWolf's. Interesting to know.
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I don't believe in a god, but I figure if there was a god I would be ok as I try to be a pretty nice guy.
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Now the discussion gets interesting. :)
I tend to think about this whole "Faith vs Science" thing quite a bit. As a pretty religious person (I try, anyway), reconciling what I believe with what I can directly observe (and with what other highly qualified people can directly observe) is occasionally challenging. As Bobboau pointed out, it doesn't come up that often... most of the time, what science says fits nicely with what I believe. Certainly scientific and rational methodologies make good sense to me as well.
Most importantly, for me, truth is truth is Truth. And Truth is something that is obtained piece by piece. Scientific and rational methods, done right, give us more and more little bits, and correct what's already there. I believe the same thing about religious truth: it comes piece by piece, and builds and expands on previous knowledge and understanding. The main difference is that while scientific truth is gained by observation and experiment, religious truth is gained by revelation. They both come in bits that build on each other and previous bits.
And so, it comes down to this: I see all apparent conflicts as just that, apparent conflicts. I trust that once I have a clear enough understanding of everything, it will all make sense. That understanding may not come in this life: it may be something that I will only have access to after I die.
So here's a summary of how I approach this:
1. It is my privilege and responsibility to pursue as much truth and knowledge as I can. It's important for me to learn and understand as much science as I can. It is also critical for me to pursue as much revealed truth as I can.
2. If I don't need to make a lifestyle/behavior choice, then having incomplete/contradictory information isn't a problem. I proceed with the acquisition of truth and knowledge, and trust that the conflict will eventually be resolved.
3. When there is a conflict and I need to make a choice affecting my behavior, I choose to follow revealed truth (when in doubt, go with what God says).
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I have read attempts to reconcile science and God and while i applaud the effort, everything i've read comes from either a scientific point of view, or a religious point of view, and thus has left me more confused. I am as apt to defend science as I am my own faith, depending on which is attacked, and while some will call it wishy washy, or talking out both sides of my mouth, this isn't the case. At the moment of defense, I believe. So when I read these books, I read through skeptical eyes, knowing that I will mentally be defending one or the other. This is why I am seldom seen in these threads. I've gone toe to toe with Kazan, and with Liberator, and no good came from it. This isn't a "why bother", this is a "I'm tired of fighting me afterwards."
Well, even if God does not exist, it doesn't really hurt to have a role-model of a 'Perfect Person' to attempt to live up to. Maybe the secret of 'finding God' is not to look into a book, but to look into ourselves?
The crux of the matter here though is a "perfect person". By looking into ourselves we find OUR definition of that person. Each of us will have a different definition, because much like your beliefs, we all become a mish mash. I do believe that we are the sum of our experiences. I also believe that we are creatures of change by necessity, and yet we resist that change in the name of comfort. It seems to me that because we are constantly experiencing, we are constantly changing. Because of this our beliefs are changing as well. Our vision of a perfect person is changing. As we grow through our experiences, our "vision" of God himself changes. The perfection is forever morphing, slowly, but inevitably. I used to have a good deal of moral gray area, but not so much anymore, things have changed, I've changed, now, it's either right or wrong. Even they are subjective though, and differ from person to person. Mind you these are not facts, but my truths. Which brings us to:
Now the discussion gets interesting. :)
I tend to think about this whole "Faith vs Science" thing quite a bit. As a pretty religious person (I try, anyway), reconciling what I believe with what I can directly observe (and with what other highly qualified people can directly observe) is occasionally challenging. As Bobboau pointed out, it doesn't come up that often... most of the time, what science says fits nicely with what I believe. Certainly scientific and rational methodologies make good sense to me as well.
Most importantly, for me, truth is truth is Truth. And Truth is something that is obtained piece by piece. Scientific and rational methods, done right, give us more and more little bits, and correct what's already there. I believe the same thing about religious truth: it comes piece by piece, and builds and expands on previous knowledge and understanding. The main difference is that while scientific truth is gained by observation and experiment, religious truth is gained by revelation. They both come in bits that build on each other and previous bits.
And so, it comes down to this: I see all apparent conflicts as just that, apparent conflicts. I trust that once I have a clear enough understanding of everything, it will all make sense. That understanding may not come in this life: it may be something that I will only have access to after I die.
So here's a summary of how I approach this:
1. It is my privilege and responsibility to pursue as much truth and knowledge as I can. It's important for me to learn and understand as much science as I can. It is also critical for me to pursue as much revealed truth as I can.
2. If I don't need to make a lifestyle/behavior choice, then having incomplete/contradictory information isn't a problem. I proceed with the acquisition of truth and knowledge, and trust that the conflict will eventually be resolved.
3. When there is a conflict and I need to make a choice affecting my behavior, I choose to follow revealed truth (when in doubt, go with what God says).
This is a parting of things for me, and a place where I am comfortable with science and faith (I really hate to use the word religion). I think of a most convenient split when studying either. In science we search for fact, certain facts will have an effect on us. In philosophy of faith, we search for truth, which will have an impact on us. Because my mind tends to wander, (as is evident in my writings), I end up in a place where the two cannot easily coincide. The fact of Science, vs the truth of Faith. Galileo was excommunicated iirc, and if not, I do know that he had serious battles with the church. I forgot where I was going with that (but I have an excuse, last week I put in 63 hours at work, not including the hour travel time in each direction, and this week I am topping off about 74 hours), i'm just really exhausted.
Anyway, the core of things is a battle of oranges vs apples. Using fact to explain truth. It really gets to bug me, especially when I actually do have clarity of thought on something, and wonder why the hell others don't get it. Judaism/Christianity and Islam for example. Similar faiths, but with enough differences to create unto them separate truths. The fact is though, that Abraham was told that both his sons would found great nations. From Isaac sprang Judaism. From Ishmael sprang Islam. Both can trace back to Abraham, so why are we warring with our brithers? Which of us if any is the Prodigal's son? And why the hell are we looking for a political solution to a faith based conflict? Why is there a faith based conflict to begin with? Maybe because of man's inherent fallibility copulating with his vanity to produce a sense of correctness in truth, all the while ignoring the simple fact that we are brothers. Again this is my truth and not to be taken as fact.
There really was a point to this whole mess of nearly incoherent thought. It's a simple point. Man writes the teachings. Man will invariably subject the reader to his opinions, even if unwittingly. In the Greek Lexicon, which is a forerunner to the Holy Bible as we know it, God didn't have gender. But as a product of a male-centric society, we have Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Man giving his opinion in God's text book. There are fundamental truths held within the pages of the Bible. There are also scientific inconsistencies. So if this makes any sense at all, you see my problem with reconcilition of the two. If it makes no sense, then chalk this post up to the ramblings of a man half blind with sleep dep. :)
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The crux of the matter here though is a "perfect person". By looking into ourselves we find OUR definition of that person. Each of us will have a different definition, because much like your beliefs, we all become a mish mash. I do believe that we are the sum of our experiences. I also believe that we are creatures of change by necessity, and yet we resist that change in the name of comfort. It seems to me that because we are constantly experiencing, we are constantly changing. Because of this our beliefs are changing as well. Our vision of a perfect person is changing. As we grow through our experiences, our "vision" of God himself changes. The perfection is forever morphing, slowly, but inevitably. I used to have a good deal of moral gray area, but not so much anymore, things have changed, I've changed, now, it's either right or wrong. Even they are subjective though, and differ from person to person. Mind you these are not facts, but my truths.
That's why it's better to have a flexible belief systems than something fixed in the form of a set of books and rituals. As you grow and your perspectives change, you start to see the world in a different light, things like 'Morals' and 'Responsibility' have no imperical measurement system, only your own interpretation of it, they are a collection of Social, Personal and Familial imperatives that are imposed on you from without. But the thing is, as you age, those imperatives alter, your Social life changes, you move from being a child in a family to the parent in one etc, and all this effects your outlook on the world around you.
I think all but the most phsycopathic murderers have a 'justification' for what they have done, they try to tie actions that they know go against their own internal moral imperatives by constructing a web of excuses that they feel over-ride them. If they did not know that what they had done broke their moral code, they wouldn't feel a need to justify it. So looking inside yourself to find God isn't a risk, so long as you accept that you will never ever truly find Him, you can only aspire to be a better person in the hope that brings you closer. To use a line from Tron:Legacy, perfection is always right there in front of us, and yet we can never achieve it.
As long as we can accept that, and be brave enough to change our views over time, to realise that nothing is set in stone then there is hope. I suppose you could almost look at it like the Second law of Thermodynamics and Entropy, the moment things stop changing, it's the end.
There was a wonderful quote by Pratchett that went something like "We say that God created Man in His image, that's 100% right except for one minor juxtaposition...."
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Actually, I think more of the Chinese riddle:
When you seek it, you cannot find it.
I love how with the absence of a few people, we can all be teacher and student at the same time in these threads, and not be a combatant.
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As a Christian, I never get the argument that God mellowed out from the Old Testament to the New. If anything he became even more stricter. Love and Grace is more emphasized(although it's far from not being shown in the old testament.) however I cannot think of a finer line than accepting Christ and or accepting Christ. God revealed his Law in the Old Testament and it had some very harsh consequences, however just realizing what God gave at the Cross and the consequences there are just un-fathomable.
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As a Christian, I never get the argument that God mellowed out from the Old Testament to the New. If anything he became even more stricter. Love and Grace is more emphasized(although it's far from not being shown in the old testament.) however I cannot think of a finer line than accepting Christ and or accepting Christ. God revealed his Law in the Old Testament and it had some very harsh consequences, however just realizing what God gave at the Cross and the consequences there are just un-fathomable.
Where in the Old Testament is anything shown that resembles love? I can think of King David weeping for his and Bathsheba's child, I can think of Isac weeping just before he was to plunge the knife in Jacob. That is all.
What father condemns his son for seeing his nakedness, as Noah did.
What father sends his daughters out to be raped?
What daughters rape their father in his sleep?
What father sacrifices his daughter to keep his promise to an uncaring God?
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I've recently read Hosea, which quite emphasizes love.
Sadly though, based on my interpretation God's love is usually towards Israel "only". The OT God is quite one-sided, though that's just my current view.
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As a Christian, I never get the argument that God mellowed out from the Old Testament to the New. If anything he became even more stricter. Love and Grace is more emphasized(although it's far from not being shown in the old testament.) however I cannot think of a finer line than accepting Christ and or accepting Christ. God revealed his Law in the Old Testament and it had some very harsh consequences, however just realizing what God gave at the Cross and the consequences there are just un-fathomable.
Where in the Old Testament is anything shown that resembles love? I can think of King David weeping for his and Bathsheba's child, I can think of Isac weeping just before he was to plunge the knife in Jacob. That is all.
What father condemns his son for seeing his nakedness, as Noah did.
What father sends his daughters out to be raped?
What daughters rape their father in his sleep?
What father sacrifices his daughter to keep his promise to an uncaring God?
Given all that, what kind of god will force you to love and accept the hearsay word that some bloke you never met is actually god himself, and that you must follow said bloke, with the new formed threat of "everlasting fire" if you do not?
Love me as I love you "Or Else"?
I am firmly in the camp that thinks that the new testament jumps to a whole new level of sadism and plain evilness, while painting itself with the yellow smug smile of "love and tenderness". It's perhaps the ultimate peak of "Passive Agressiveness" that I have ever seen:
"Go ahead, punch in my face... I even offer you my other!
Look how meek I am, how passive, how good!
(Just you wait until you die, you piece of S...1"#!"#%!"#%), you will burn FOREVER if you don't go down on your knees for me!"
That's my view, anyway.
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you bump this thread for that? :wtf:
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(http://koti.mbnet.fi/reiler/impliedfacepalm.png)
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:p