Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Unknown Target on June 16, 2011, 06:42:17 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnynQzLo3aQ
Also at :40, is that the Grecian riot dog?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HPb46aK7hM
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There is a peacefull protest for 23 days now in Greece, against the government and the "financiall aid" to the country.
Yesterday, the media decided to cover the protest and at the same time, those criminals entered the protest and did what they did, only for the world to see that we are not only lazy, unworthy and useless, but also violent.
All these are propaganda.
After the "riots", (nothing but an attempt to destroy the peacefull protest), people came back in front of the parliament and kept on demanding the resignation of the traitor that leads the government.
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That makes sense.
What's the story behind that dog, anyway?
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I'd prefer you to ask what's the story behind the children who's life was in danger yesterday. There were ~700.000 people there and there's a spot with very dangerous stairs, right against the parliament.
The dog is just a dog and i didn't see it. I was trying to keep people from panicking.
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I'd prefer you to ask what's the story behind the children who's life was in danger yesterday. There were ~700.000 people there and there's a spot with very dangerous stairs, right against the parliament.
The dog is just a dog and i didn't see it. I was trying to keep people from panicking.
You are a brave and decent man, sir.
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What is the current political situation there, peterv?
In 2009 you had elections, and I'm somewhat bemused by your political parties line-up as described here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Greece
where you have two centric left and right wing parties, a communist party, a "coalition of the radical left" and a popular orthodox party.
I'm bemused because this is the line up for the portuguese parties:
A socialist party (which was until now in power), a "social democracy party" (center-right wing), a communist party, the "Left block" (a coalition of the radical left) and the Popular Party (which is constituted by right wing christians).
But apart from that, what do the people want in Greece? Elections, political renewal, what is exactly being discussed in the public forums, or in the tvs, etc.?
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I am going to go out on a limb here without any information whatsoever and guess that the economy and debt are big issues.
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Hey smartass. I live in Portugal, i.e., somewhere inside of the ****storm, OK? Don't be a troll.
I was asking for a *very* specific notion. For instance, in Portugal we asked for FMI aid, and we had to sack the prime minister. I can give you the exact political contexts for this decision, what the people think about Socrates (yeah, our prime minister had that name, the coincidences are never ending I'm afraid), what the opposition has been doing the past year or two, what led to the meltdown of the gov budget, etc.,etc.
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Luis Dias, in brief:
In 2009 our right - centric partie provoked elections, arguing that the country had serious debt problem.
Our left - centric partie (the one leaded by the traitor) won the election, arguing that there was no debt problem at all and everything would be fine.
A few months later, the traitor turned the debt (to banks mostly) to a mortgage debt to countries. (The mortgage covers literally the whole Greece).
To do that, the traitor violated the constitution. Our right - centric partie said nothing about it, and the rest of them did not react as they should.
What we want is to put the traitors in jails and change our politicall system, all of them. And most of all to cancel the "financial agreement" which enslaves Greece to other countries and to the IMF.
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Hey smartass. I live in Portugal, i.e., somewhere inside of the ****storm, OK? Don't be a troll.
Yeah, that was totally unwarranted and rude coming in response to a properly qualified post. If you can't keep your calm in civil conversation, don't post.
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The way i see it people, we' re all inside the storm. No need for fighting between us.
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Wow, so it is majorly even badder than I thought. Yeah, that guy should be definitely in jail.
Apart from the mortgage (which really is a big difference), Portugal's timeline isn't that much different.
In 2009, we had elections, the Socialist party had the wider majority of the parliament until then, and still won the elections, but with less than 50% of the parliament seats. The right wing tried to warn over the budget, while the socialist party invested majorly in debt with measures against the financial crysis (and lots of others which were only to win the votes like giving 3% wage rises). They subsequently failed the deficit objectives for that year and the next.
The right wing party changed their leadership and with Passos Coelho, the opposition party had to agree with 3 "Stability And Growth Packs" which were all about austerity to get their budget right. It never did however, and when the socialist party announced the 4th pack this year, enough was enough and elections were provoked.
We are heading the same dark path you are crossing now, with intolerable debt rates with the IMF...
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Hey smartass. I live in Portugal, i.e., somewhere inside of the ****storm, OK? Don't be a troll.
Yeah, that was totally unwarranted and rude coming in response to a properly qualified post. If you can't keep your calm in civil conversation, don't post.
As if you weren't making fun of what you thought was my distraction about what is going on...
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Hey smartass. I live in Portugal, i.e., somewhere inside of the ****storm, OK? Don't be a troll.
Yeah, that was totally unwarranted and rude coming in response to a properly qualified post. If you can't keep your calm in civil conversation, don't post.
As if you weren't making fun of what you thought was my distraction about what is going on...
I wasn't. Please don't be disruptive, this is an interesting thread and I'd like to hear more from peterv about what's going on over there.
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Wow, so it is majorly even badder than I thought. Yeah, that guy should be definitely in jail.
Apart from the mortgage (which really is a big difference), Portugal's timeline isn't that much different.
In 2009, we had elections, the Socialist party had the wider majority of the parliament until then, and still won the elections, but with less than 50% of the parliament seats. The right wing tried to warn over the budget, while the socialist party invested majorly in debt with measures against the financial crysis (and lots of others which were only to win the votes like giving 3% wage rises). They subsequently failed the deficit objectives for that year and the next.
The right wing party changed their leadership and with Passos Coelho, the opposition party had to agree with 3 "Stability And Growth Packs" which were all about austerity to get their budget right. It never did however, and when the socialist party announced the 4th pack this year, enough was enough and elections were provoked.
We are heading the same dark path you are crossing now, with intolerable debt rates with the IMF...
Yeah, we are monitoring what's happening in Portugal, Spain and Ireland. It's actually a war declared from banks to nations.
E.U. looks defeated so far.
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I'd prefer you to ask what's the story behind the children who's life was in danger yesterday. There were ~700.000 people there and there's a spot with very dangerous stairs, right against the parliament.
The dog is just a dog and i didn't see it. I was trying to keep people from panicking.
I did not know that there were any children whose lives were in danger. I'm sorry for that.
However if your goal was to keep people from panicking then I am happy you were there.
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This is actually our fault Unknown target. We should work better to inform people around the world about the real situation in Greece.
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Do you have any links to videos, twitter feeds, blogs, etc that I could follow to stay better informed, or send to others? Some movements have used a few basic hash tags so posts about them are easier to search for.
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Max Kaiser explains things in severall videos in youtube.
For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKCR2k4keMQ&feature=player_detailpage
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Thanks, the woman on that show was really informative.
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:lol:
Here's a better one, from a blog: http://grcrisis.blogspot.com/
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Thanks, that's a great resource.
I find a few things interesting; one that they say that they were not under a syndicate banner, yet they say it was all organized on Facebook. To an American, at least to me, as an American, Facebook is what I would consider a corporate banner. It's been so exploited and manipulated and twisted over here that I see it as part of the issue. :\
I also thought there might be an opportunity for people around the world to start connecting and talking about good values to base governments on - perhaps there can be a global movement, a central forum community that houses areas for each different country or land area? Just a thought, I know it's out there.
The thing about the "global elite" is also really interesting; that is showing up a lot in a lot of different channels. The military exercises stuff was also an interesting read.
Thanks again for the link. :)
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I agree about the Facebook and twitter.
It was not organized in Facebook. There was a "war" there, between people who tried to prove that what happened had nothing to do with the government and the rest of us.
It was actually organized in blogs, chatrooms and via cellphones.
We defenetelly must start connecting and talking about good values, this is very important these days.
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Someone from the revolution in Brazil posted this on another forum I frequent - see anything you agree with?
Greetings friends!
I’m posting to you the March of Freedom that will happen in Brazil next June 18. Follow the link to the manifesto (I have translated it right below) and all the cities where the march will take place, with times and locations: http://www.marchadaliberdade.org/2011/06/a-marcha-pelo-brasil/
#Manifesto March of Freedom
Call for freedom
Arrests, gunfire, bombs, shrapnel, murders. Across the country, legitimate protests are being suppressed with violent attacks of the police force. They want to silence us.
Avenida Paulista, May 21, 2011: Marijuana March. History repeats itself. Riot police, under the eyes of the government and the media, advancing ruthlessly on protesters armed only with words and songs. The images of the massacre to free speech, recorded by cameras, bodies and hearts, echoed in the network and impact on the streets with a thousand tear gas, causing outrage and sparking people from an anesthetic state. What government could want was happening: the people began to organize. This time, we wouldn’t put our heads down.
Seven days later, advocates of various causes, most victims of various injustices, were back at the same location to give a response to oppression. The streets of the city were taken by 5,000 people of all colors, creeds and flags. On the Internet, a multitude spread the message as a virus through social networks. That day, Brazil marched together by the same ideals. There was born the March of Freedom.
We are not an organization. We are not a party. We are not virtual. We are REAL. A network made by people of flesh and bone. Horizontally organized, autonomous, free.
There are few certainties. Many questions. And a belief: that freedom is an eternal work in construction. We believe that freedom of expression is the basis for all others: the belief, assembly, political views, sexual orientation, to come and go. To resist. Our freedom is against the order while the order is against freedom.
We call:
All those who are not intimidated, and who insist on not remain silent about violence. We rely on the legs and arms that move with the voices of those who do not agree. Leagues, chains, theater groups, dance, collectives, forest people, graffiti artists, workers, hackers, feminists, firemen, homeless people and the like. Neighborhood associations, NGOs, political parties, anarcho, blocks, groups and bands. All those who condemn the impunity that do not support repressive police violence, authoritarianism and conservatism of the judiciary and the state. That represses workers and intimidate teachers. That languishes in the public benefit of private interests.
Cyclists, will fight to end racism. Black, bring a rainbow flag. LGBTT, roar through the forests. Environmentalists, sing. Street performers, public transportation advocate.
Pedestrians, speaking on behalf of animals. Vegetarian, make a distinctive barbecue!
Our claims have no hierarchy. All agendas are complementary perspective on the struggle for an egalitarian society, for a dignified life, love and mutual respect. We are all pedestrians, drivers, wheelchair users, collectors, students, workers. We are all elderly, indigenous people, transvestites. We are all from the Northeast, Bolivians, Brazilians, mutts.
And we are free.
You have power! Our greatest weapon is awareness. Make a video, post on your social networks, and build your speech, talk at home, at lunch at work, in the range of the school. Share your proposals on the walls in his blog, on your wall. Meet locally, call your friends, raise your flags, go to the streets.
We are facing a historic change. For the first time we have real chance of winning freedom. The world is awakening. Get off the couch and get out there. Let us together build the world we want!
Spread the rebellion. # # Marchadaliberdade worldrevolution
Principles of Motion:
- Freedom of expression and organization;
- Against police repression and violence in every sphere of society;
- Against the conservatism that has guided the judiciary and the state.
General claim:
- Legislation to ban the use of weapons by police in social events.
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Yeah, it's a global kumbaya. I just hope we don't wake up in 2015 and wonder where it all went, just like in 68.
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I would think this "global kumbaya" as you put it is because people are waking up.
I hold out hope for the future. :)
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You all realize that if Greece defaulted on its debt it might cause a continent wide financial crisis, right?
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It's not like the financial system as it stands is really fair or just, to be honest.
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.... I have never seen a "just and honest" financial system ever. But I do prefer one to anarchy.
You know, I happen to like not living under a bridge.
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Why do you immediately assume that the only alternative to our current system is anarchy?
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I was following Mustang's idea, that's all.
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Wow CNN and Russia Today recruiters are going to be all over this board soon.
A financial crisis doesn't mean anarchy, it just means a likely recession. So what exactly is being posited here? A financial crisis is a good thing?
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It seems so. A financial crisis is perhaps not a problem since the financial status quo isn't just nor honest.
I think that's the gist of it.
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Crisis precedes reform seems a more reasonable argument.
Pity no one's making it.
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That's true in the case of Greece.
Doesn't mean a Greek default is desirable, as IMF loans to the country are meant to stabilize its finances on the condition of more privatizations.
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Crisis precedes reform seems a more reasonable argument.
Pity no one's making it.
You just did. I'd like to use that elsewhere if the necessity arises. :)
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You all realize that if Greece defaulted on its debt it might cause a continent wide financial crisis, right?
I hope that you also realize that the debt of Greece cannot be paid along with the acceptance of the country's constitutional violation right?
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Someone from the revolution in Brazil posted this on another forum I frequent - see anything you agree with?
One thing only: The fact that people over there are not organized.
IMO we're dealing with a perfectly organized enemy and we need to be as organized as possible to win.
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Can you elaborate on the enemy you're talking about?
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For us it's the Greek government.
For the rest of the world we'll need a biiiiiiiig conversation. :D
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Haha well let's look at the whole world. Perhaps the similarities between Greece and the US? Right now one of our major problems is rampant greed, private manipulation of public government for private desires, overregulation and overillegalization, a moneyless public government and corporations that are very large and have a lot of unchecked power.
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All these, i agree. But all they really have as a weapon is propaganda, nothing else. The real power is still in the hands of the people, at least in democratic countries. So what do we do? What you said before, communicate. That's what we did here at least, and the result is to make the whole (corrupted IMO) European leadership to start having second thoughts.
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What is this "Memorandum" exactly?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48bR2-Kz-Dc&feature=player_embedded#at=181
What does it entail?
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*Bump* What happened with that referendum? Things seem to have quieted down. What's up?
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Speaking from the Northern European side, quite a lot people are starting to get fed up with these aid money packages to Greece since we would need the money ourselves now, and we need to get loans to pay the commission stipulated amount. None of us believe this money will effect anyhow what's wrong in Greece, and the common feeling in the Middle Finland is that let the whole thing crash while it's still recoverable elsewhere in the EU. The worst of it? The fact that it's not Finnish investors that have ****ed up, it's UK, French and German investors (banks) whose losses we are actually paying. UK has invested thousand times more in Greece, while they virtually pay nothing, the same with Sweden, who has invested more there, but doesn't belong to EMU and they don't have to pay support money. This is simply not seen as fair, and that's pretty big deal with Finns. Next referendum might be rather interesting around here...
Add on top of that, we are getting angry about the Greeks that are rioting and do not accept the changes necessary to improve the situation. The thing is that general population halfway expected this would happen when Finland joined in EMU back then. It was indeed said that do we really want to go in to the same boat with Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian given their historic record of controlling their economy and overall culture with respect to it? But since this is a democratic country and general population voted for EMU, here we go...
And like that wouldn't be the worst of it, Greece isn't even an isolated case, Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal are soon to follow. After they have gone broke, it's probably this place, and for backing them up.
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Perhaps you can repo the Acropolis and sell it to China to cover the debt?
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This seems to be an interesting quote:
"But many Greeks insist they should not be forced to pay for a crisis they believe the politicians are responsible for.
"We don't owe any money, it's the others who stole it," said 69-year-old demonstrator Antonis Vrahas. "We're resisting for a better society for the sake of our children and grandchildren.""
http://news.yahoo.com/protesters-clash-riot-police-athens-strike-115524385.html
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Well, it seems like whenever Americans try to use that reasoning, everyone else just says "Yeah well you voted for your politicians, so too bad, you're responsible." I mean Greece is still a democracy, right?
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Not just Americans say that about the situation too.
But really, is the population to be held responsible for the poor decisions of just a few people out of many?
Isn't that just a visible symptom of larger problems, instead of a damnation of an entire people because a few people got stupid/greedy/careless when in control of vast resources.
To me that says that Greece, and by extrusion much of the world; has a power issue.
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From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy. I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.
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:wtf: I suggest at the very least you read this article (http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010?currentPage=all) that was discussed on our very own HLP back in September before you get on your Illuminati/bourgeois rant, it points to the current economic situation in Greece being systemic of problems at all levels of Greek society. The current Greek government inherited this clusterfrak and they are going to have to make some hard decisions and cuts if they're going to return to any semblance of economic stability. This situation is a lot more complex than being able to just slapping some proletariat utopia line and hope it wills away hard economic reality.
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From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy. I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.
If the people don't want to pay taxes, then why try to follow a system that requires it? Make taxes optional?
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From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy. I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.
If the people don't want to pay taxes, then why try to follow a system that requires it? Make taxes optional?
Wut.
People never want to pay taxes. It's a necessary, well, tax for living in a society that doesn't fall apart on itself.
Seriously. Stupid question.
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You've gotta be trolling, there is no way you can't understand the very basics of how civilization or a society works. You couldn't have made it this far through the education system without at least some knowledge in economics, history, government or western civ being imparted.
I mean hell, how do you expect to change the world if you display a complete ignorance of the very fundamentals its built on?
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Hmmm, I think my previous post may have been interpreted backwards. I don't mean to say "**** Greece, they elected their leaders so they're responsible for the mess." I mean something more like, "Just as Greece can be betrayed by its elected leaders, so can the US or just about any other country." So yeah, it's totally possible to make what you think is the best decision in an election, given the information you have on hand, etc etc. and still get screwed over, because politicians are all liars and scumbags.
**** politics.
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Speaking from the Northern European side, quite a lot people are starting to get fed up with these aid money packages to Greece since we would need the money ourselves now, and we need to get loans to pay the commission stipulated amount. None of us believe this money will effect anyhow what's wrong in Greece, and the common feeling in the Middle Finland is that let the whole thing crash while it's still recoverable elsewhere in the EU. The worst of it? The fact that it's not Finnish investors that have ****ed up, it's UK, French and German investors (banks) whose losses we are actually paying. UK has invested thousand times more in Greece, while they virtually pay nothing, the same with Sweden, who has invested more there, but doesn't belong to EMU and they don't have to pay support money. This is simply not seen as fair, and that's pretty big deal with Finns. Next referendum might be rather interesting around here...
Add on top of that, we are getting angry about the Greeks that are rioting and do not accept the changes necessary to improve the situation. The thing is that general population halfway expected this would happen when Finland joined in EMU back then. It was indeed said that do we really want to go in to the same boat with Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian given their historic record of controlling their economy and overall culture with respect to it? But since this is a democratic country and general population voted for EMU, here we go...
And like that wouldn't be the worst of it, Greece isn't even an isolated case, Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal are soon to follow. After they have gone broke, it's probably this place, and for backing them up.
Dear Mika, you need to understand this: We Greeks DON'T WANT your money.
Also, i don't know what's happening in Northern European side, but in Greece there is no democracy since the acceptance of your money from our government.
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What is this "Memorandum" exactly?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48bR2-Kz-Dc&feature=player_embedded#at=181
What does it entail?
It's the "low" that allows the Greek debts to banks to become mortaged debts to EU and IMF.
From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy. I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.
It's true. There is a reason for this though: For the last 30 years there are several cases where the government erased huge debts owned from companies and banks. Same thing happened with fines owned to the state (Vodafone's fine of 76million euros was erased for example). Also, the tax lows are not exactly... democratic :lol:
People feel that it's not fair to pay taxes. Personally i disagree, but i understand it.
Perhaps you can repo the Acropolis and sell it to China to cover the debt?
Along with some islnands perhaps? Germans would be very happy according to their mass-media. On the other hand, a war against us might be more profitable.
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Well, no, a war against Greece would not solve anything really. Neither would selling off islands (no matter what the asstards that run the german mass media say. **** Bild.). I do not know what will, apart from overthrowing the greek government and declaring the new government to not be a successor to the old one.
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From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy. I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.
If the people don't want to pay taxes, then why try to follow a system that requires it? Make taxes optional?
Wut.
People never want to pay taxes. It's a necessary, well, tax for living in a society that doesn't fall apart on itself.
Seriously. Stupid question.
Well I'm just saying; if people don't want to pay taxes, then obviously they don't want to have the services that taxes provide. Make taxes a direct payment thing, per tax, and then if people don't want to pay taxes for something then they won't get it.
The lack of basic services like city water and electricity would encourage most people to pay a water and electricity tax.
Well, no, a war against Greece would not solve anything really. Neither would selling off islands (no matter what the asstards that run the german mass media say. **** Bild.). I do not know what will, apart from overthrowing the greek government and declaring the new government to not be a successor to the old one.
Careful there, that's revolutionary talk; that would be real change, and that would be "bad" :p ;)
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From recent articles I've read, though, things like tax-dodging seem to be an endemic problem in Greece, and not only amongst the wealthy. I'd imagine peterv would be a much more reliable source for that, though.
If the people don't want to pay taxes, then why try to follow a system that requires it? Make taxes optional?
Wut.
People never want to pay taxes. It's a necessary, well, tax for living in a society that doesn't fall apart on itself.
Seriously. Stupid question.
Well I'm just saying; if people don't want to pay taxes, then obviously they don't want to have the services that taxes provide. Make taxes a direct payment thing, per tax, and then if people don't want to pay taxes for something then they won't get it.
The lack of basic services like city water and electricity would encourage most people to pay a water and electricity tax.
How do you maintain electric/gas/water/road infrastructure if not enough people are paying for it? How do you staff and equip police and fire departments? How do you apply those services such as fire and police on a per paid basis? How do you consistently post complete bullocks ideas that are completely disconnected from reality?
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The Euro Crisis is the biggest short term threat to the global economy, with Greece being the first domino to fall and Portugal, Italy, Spain and Ireland lined up behind it. However I don't think it will lead to a break up of the Euro, too many nations have put too much into it for that to happen and it would crash their economies. How it will get through this isn't entirely clear, but we'll know for sure in 5 years time.
Long term the big concern is the US and China, although for different reasons. The US has been able to get away with it's 30 year spending spree and twin deficeits for so long because of the dollar's reserve status, but currently this is being eroded and if it actually loses its status as the reserve currency this will have severe consequences for the people. The Eurozone is just the first to feel the pain.
The lack of basic services like city water and electricity would encourage most people to pay a water and electricity tax.
You do pay a water and electricity tax, that's called your utilities bill.
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@StarSlayer
They're just ideas. Just because they would be hard or impossible to make work at the moment doesn't mean they shouldn't be talked about. Do you think we would have come up with things like the US Constitution, language, etc, if we only talked about what was expressly possible at the moment?
I swear, you get so worked up over it, it's just an idea. Why don't you try answering those questions yourself and maybe see where I'm coming from? I'm not saying it's a flawless proposal, it's just a proposal.
Anyway, to answer some of your questions, like fire departments and police departments - you could rely more on community training and democratize the skills; pay a large number of the populace to go through the training, and pay a small subset of the populace a retainer for them to keep practicing their skills.
If more people knew how to take care of problems like fires, or how to negotiate with people or avoid dangerous situations that would require police protection, then there would be less of a need to maintain an (expensive) force specifically for dealing with those problems. In fact, if more people knew at least basic knowledge, they would be able to form local groups to deal with issues.
It's the same principle as, say, in Israel or Finland, where everyone goes through military training, so everyone at least has basic survival skills, and knows how to work in a team to solve a problem.
The lack of basic services like city water and electricity would encourage most people to pay a water and electricity tax.
You do pay a water and electricity tax, that's called your utilities bill.
I know, I was saying if taxes were optional. :)
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@StarSlayer
They're just ideas. Just because they would be hard or impossible to make work at the moment doesn't mean they shouldn't be talked about. Do you think we would have come up with things like the US Constitution, language, etc, if we only talked about what was expressly possible at the moment?
I swear, you get so worked up over it, it's just an idea. Why don't you try answering those questions yourself and maybe see where I'm coming from? I'm not saying it's a flawless proposal, it's just a proposal.
Anyway, to answer some of your questions, like fire departments and police departments - you could rely more on community training and democratize the skills; pay a large number of the populace to go through the training, and pay a small subset of the populace a retainer for them to keep practicing their skills.
If more people knew how to take care of problems like fires, or how to negotiate with people or avoid dangerous situations that would require police protection, then there would be less of a need to maintain an (expensive) force specifically for dealing with those problems. In fact, if more people knew at least basic knowledge, they would be able to form local groups to deal with issues.
It's the same principle as, say, in Israel or Finland, where everyone goes through military training, so everyone at least has basic survival skills, and knows how to work in a team to solve a problem.
The lack of basic services like city water and electricity would encourage most people to pay a water and electricity tax.
You do pay a water and electricity tax, that's called your utilities bill.
I know, I was saying if taxes were optional. :)
This should be self evident but, how do you provide for your community training program if not a large enough subset of the populace bothers to pay for it? How do you implement police and or fire services on a per paid basis? Does law and order not exist on property where you don't pay taxes? Similarly utilities can not function to provide cherry picked service, specifically lets look at electricity. It costs a large initial investment to pay for the basic infrastructure, the poles, the wires the transformers the meters, etc. That's followed by the regular costs to maintain that infrastructure, line trucks, trained linemen, spare parts to fix broken hardware. On top of that the utility company needs to reach out to electricity generating firms to purchase the electricity its going to distribute across its grid. That level of infrastructure isn't going to be supported if it can't draw from a large customer base. If you can't support those costs then you cannot provide electricity for anyone, even those who might be willing to pay. Roadways, gas, fire departments, water, etc. revenue needs to support the costs of doing business.
I ask these questions because it is obvious your suggestions do not take into account the very fundamentals of how society works. The onus is not on me to make your naive imaginings manifest, especially when its starkly obvious they wouldn't survive first contact with reality.
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This should be self evident but, how do you provide for your community training program if not a large enough subset of the populace bothers to pay for it?
Obviously you can't. If the community didn't feel that it needed a certain department at that time, then why continue it? It will only be draining resources.
It costs a large initial investment to pay for the basic infrastructure, the poles, the wires the transformers the meters, etc.
Good thing most of that already exists in America.
That's followed by the regular costs to maintain that infrastructure, line trucks, trained linemen, spare parts to fix broken hardware. On top of that the utility company needs to reach out to electricity generating firms to purchase the electricity its going to distribute across its grid. That level of infrastructure isn't going to be supported if it can't draw from a large customer base. If you can't support those costs then you cannot provide electricity for anyone, even those who might be willing to pay. Roadways, gas, fire departments, water, etc. revenue needs to support the costs of doing business.
If individual members of a community don't feel that it's necessary to maintain certain roads, or that there are no repairs to be done, then why pay for the maintenance? Not everything needs to be kept in pristine condition 24/7 in order to perform it's function or job.
"That level of infrastructure isn't going to be supported if it can't draw from a large customer base."
"Roadways, gas, fire departments, water, etc. revenue needs to support the costs of doing business"
Those phrases are, to me, evident of a very capitalist, business-driven idea of how to mantain a society.
I ask these questions because it is obvious your suggestions do not take into account the very fundamentals of how society works.
How current society works and how has society has worked in the past, yes, my suggestion assumes that we might actually find a better way instead of just repeating what we've done before.
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Those phrases are, to me, evident of a very capitalist, business-driven idea of how to mantain a society.
Here's a problem though. Infrastructure building and maintenance is NOT a task you want to hand over to capitalist firms. Witness the epic fail that resulted once train companies went private in the UK and Germany.
States ARE better at doing this sort of thing than private companies.
If individual members of a community don't feel that it's necessary to maintain certain roads, or that there are no repairs to be done, then why pay for the maintenance? Not everything needs to be kept in pristine condition 24/7 in order to perform it's function or job.
What. Yes, it actually does. A train line that isn't kept in operating condition is a potential train crash waiting to happen. A power grid that is not maintained is a brownout or blackout in waiting. Roads that are left to rot are accidents that haven't happened yet. Note, I am not talking about "pristine" condition. I'm talking about "operating" condition, which takes just as much maintenance. Once you start to skimp on that, you WILL have issues. Or rather, dead people.
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Those phrases are, to me, evident of a very capitalist, business-driven idea of how to mantain a society.
Here's a problem though. Infrastructure building and maintenance is NOT a task you want to hand over to capitalist firms. Witness the epic fail that resulted once train companies went private in the UK and Germany.
States ARE better at doing this sort of thing than private companies.
Totally agree.
If individual members of a community don't feel that it's necessary to maintain certain roads, or that there are no repairs to be done, then why pay for the maintenance? Not everything needs to be kept in pristine condition 24/7 in order to perform it's function or job.
What. Yes, it actually does. A train line that isn't kept in operating condition is a potential train crash waiting to happen. A power grid that is not maintained is a brownout or blackout in waiting. Roads that are left to rot are accidents that haven't happened yet. Note, I am not talking about "pristine" condition. I'm talking about "operating" condition, which takes just as much maintenance. Once you start to skimp on that, you WILL have issues. Or rather, dead people.
Well then why do you need trains, busses, private cars, jets, etc? Focus on things that are the most cost effective to maintain and operate, rather than trying to maintain the facilities for everything.
Again, the basic thrust of what I'm talking about is cutting down and stripping away things that we may think we need but really don't.
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Funny enough what your arguing ends up being extremely selfish and shortsighted. You've actually traveled so far to the left you've reached the same arguments as the hard corps libertarians on the right. Paying taxes for utilities and public services is for the betterment of all. Education, the services provided by public safety, well maintained utilities benefit the entire society. Sure you might think you personally don't need to benefit from the things taxes pay for, and for a while its possible you might not see the consequences, but eventually as infrastructure collapses, teeming masses of people are left uneducated, and the rule of law deteriorates that is eventually going to bite you in the ass hard.
Being able to receive an education, not having to worry about being murdered on a whim, access to electiricty and clean running water, and being able to use public transport without fear of the bridge falling into the river make for a higher standard of living. If you are very interested in seeing what happens when society collapses, there are plenty of historic examples for you to perusal, or perhaps you can visit one of the places on this planet that are currently going through a wave of violent anarchy and collapse.
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It seems like you assume I think I won't be paying taxes? I'd pay them; but I'd like to experiment with direct taxation for projects; I would pay what I can afford for projects such as education, healthcare, etc.
Anyway, we're getting off topic, unless you want tie tie this discussion back into the situation in Greece? The riots seem to be getting worse.
I'll respond to your post later if no one else has anything to say about the main topic of the thread; at the moment I'm a bit too busy at work today to go into a debate about governance and taxation. :) I want to discuss it, but yea, duty calls.
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About the riots: For the first time, a TV journalist called the police spokesman a "servant of foreign occupation forces", directly and publicly.
The traitors made a big mistake launching a massive attack against the demonstrators. There are many videos of provocateurs hiding inside the parliament under the police protection. Thank God, these guys are idiots.
One of the videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s39q-n_UE74&feature=player_embedded
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The more I read about it, the more I think Greece is an economic lost cause. Admitting them into the currency and financial arrangements of the EU was a huge mistake that everyone else is going to seriously regret.
That said, I honestly think Greece is on a path to default no matter what happens, so it might be better to save everyone the pain and let it go now, rather than later. Though I do wonder if the Greeks who refuse to pay taxes AND the Greeks rioting/protesting actually realize how bad the consequences of the inevitable default are going to be.
Not a good situation.
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The more I read about it, the more I think Greece is an economic lost cause. Admitting them into the currency and financial arrangements of the EU was a huge mistake that everyone else is going to seriously regret.
That said, I honestly think Greece is on a path to default no matter what happens, so it might be better to save everyone the pain and let it go now, rather than later. Though I do wonder if the Greeks who refuse to pay taxes AND the Greeks rioting/protesting actually realize how bad the consequences of the inevitable default are going to be.
Not a good situation.
Every serious economist said that Greece is on path to default a year ago. But EU and IMF wanted to save the banks and hypothecate Greece. EU people are also victims of the same propaganda
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I posted that quote to a German friend of mine, peterv. He started the conversation off from the perspective of a German annoyed with the Greeks, but now I think perhaps he has shifted his position a little, even if it might not be evident from the section of conversation below.
Unknown Target: "Every serious economist said that Greece is on path to default a year ago. But EU and IMF wanted to save the banks and hypothecate Greece. EU people are also victims of the same propaganda"
******: hmm
******: what would happen if they did default
Unknown Target: I think that there's this false derisiveness being promoted by media and news outlets that aims to keep people separated
Unknown Target: but i dont know, thats just a theory
Unknown Target: and people are talking about the crashing of the euro and the entire economic system
Unknown Target: if it's that weak then maybe it should crash, yeesh
Unknown Target: are we going to have to go through more "too big to fail"?
******: well yes, media is a way to manipulate the population, no more and no less
******: I don't know how the news look for your country, but around here you might notice a certain rythm of new horror stories that I think are just meant to keep the population busy with something other than politics
Unknown Target: same
Unknown Target: that's why I say you and the greeks may have more in common...same with us in america
******: keep the population unhappy and in fear and you can manipulate them with little effort to do your bidding
Unknown Target: I think what country's leaders are/should be most afraid of isn't other country's citizens bombing us
Unknown Target: but instead us realizing how similar we all are
Unknown Target: at this point a country's borders have never felt more contrived and artificial
******: more to the point that none of our governments would survive its citizens waking up
Unknown Target: yup
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I remember my self writing in one blog that "No focus magazine or any other crap is going to make me hate Germans".
That was more than a year ago and it still believe it, but i don't think that globalization would solve anything at all.
Nations don't really need to be similar, at least not from the cultural point of view. Difference makes our lifes more interesting. But it is vital for our civilization to become friends and realize that we need to get involved with politics and get rid of bustards such as our "prime-minister" and most of EU's leadership.
Thanks UT, this dialog was very interesting and optimistic.
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I thought this was interesting;
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/how-the-greeks-are-handling-the-burden-of-austerity-measures-59202.html
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I thought this was interesting;
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/how-the-greeks-are-handling-the-burden-of-austerity-measures-59202.html
Very!
"I don't want to share what I want to say to the prime minister. It would sound extreme."
Unfortunately the same goes to Mrs Clinton for offering support to the traitor.