Keep fighting and hoping that Byrne isn't just the crouching moron hidden badass in R2 anymore.
I agree .. i dont think we're at a stage where dwindling fighters/bombers are an issue for the TEV's yet.
But for the Fed's its just the opposite ...i mean Calder/Netreba gambled EVERYTHING (including their own command carriers) into this operation, so they must have already lost quite a few of the increasingly scare Uriel gunships...only to get totally owned by Steele's gambit.
I just keep drawing blanks thinking "What would I do now if I were in Calder/Netreba's shoes?" ..Man I hate Steele :mad:
UEF Potential losses
Jovian Rim Fleet
FA 3311 Ranvir - Narayana class
FG 3101 Nelson - Karuna class
FG 3102 Cormorant - Karuna class
FG 3103 Katana - Karuna class
FG 3104 Altan Orde - Karuna class
FG 3107 Akula - Karuna class
FG 3108 Rhineland - Karuna class
CA 32XX Dea Nemetona - Sanctus class
CA 32XX St Vincent - Sanctus class
CA 32XX Dea Soucanna - Sanctus class
CA 32XX Sabaragamuwa - Sanctus class
CA 3240 Ironhide - Sanctus class
CA 3241 Suffron - Sanctus class
CA 3242 Dea Bricta - Sanctus class
CA 3243 Auxerre - Sanctus class
Second Fleet Mars
FG 2102 Yangtze - Karuna class
CA 2231 Dea Icaunis - Sanctus class
CA 2233 Kyoto - Sanctus class
CA 2234 Insuperable - Sanctus class
Home Fleet
CA 1225 Vilnius - Sanctus class
Unknown
X3XX - Narayana class
X3XX - Narayana class
X1XX - Karuna class
X1XX - Karuna class
X2XX - Sanctus class
X2XX - Sanctus class
X2XX - Sanctus class
X2XX - Sanctus class
Also the GTVA can just rotate another battlegroup in if losses were to heavy, withdraw the current for repairs. The UEF don't have that luxury.
Also the GTVA can just rotate another battlegroup in if losses were to heavy, withdraw the current for repairs. The UEF don't have that luxury.
Nope, they can't. Not without making an already complicated logistical and political issue even more complicated.
At the end of WiH, the war is effectively lost, with both 2FM and 3JRF being reduced to a shadow of their former selves. Supporting Byrne and whatever his endgame plan is is pretty much the only option they have.
Simply look up the vp-files.
It was the Hydra, part of Serkr indeed.
At the end of WiH, the war is effectively lost, with both 2FM and 3JRF being reduced to a shadow of their former selves. Supporting Byrne and whatever his endgame plan is is pretty much the only option they have.
Makes me wonder what black-ops trickery the Laporte & the Fedayeen (sp) are going to get up to in WiH part 2...
Fear not, Indus. Careful listening is our...specialty. We are preparing engineering teams to assist with repairs, and shuttles to evacuate your casualties.
The strong inner Tev within me says 'hopefully nothing' xD
In the end cutscene we see that the Vasudans too have committed a Task Force/Battlegroup to the Sol theater ..so that would mean that the Tev's are doing well both logistically & politically :nervous:Also the GTVA can just rotate another battlegroup in if losses were to heavy, withdraw the current for repairs. The UEF don't have that luxury.
Nope, they can't. Not without making an already complicated logistical and political issue even more complicated.
Remember the ants ? :P
I wonder if the Vasudans could be the red ants.
I know, but that apocalypse surely involves Shivans and not some flowergirls in Sol;)Are you sure that the shivans are the possible apocalypse? maybe, there is another species around in the BP-verse?
BP3 will be about fighting giant ants in space suits, I'm sureYou will be an ant! You must choose your side!
BP3 will be about fighting giant ants in space suits, I'm sureoh wait, those are shivans sorry didn't notice that when i was posting
What about those ships that defected to the UEF at the end of AOA? Do we have any info on what they are doing?
Other than the Sanctuary, there was the GTC Duke and the GTL Solace. I think that I'm missing one.What about those ships that defected to the UEF at the end of AOA? Do we have any info on what they are doing?
While I won't hold my breath in anticipation, it would be interesting to see the Sanctuary enter the field retrofitted in some hurried way. I was rather fond of that 'gattling gun' projection on the front that didn't seem to do anything.
Admiral CareySpoiler:does in fact support the UEF, her dissimination of information plays a key role throughout the second half of War in Heaven
Admiral CareySpoiler:does in fact support the UEF, her dissimination of information plays a key role throughout the second half of War in Heaven
too bad it was a carp.
Using those ships in a decisive battle that concludes in the UEF's favor would have huge psychological impact on the GTVA, sort of like salt in the proverbial wounds.Or it would send the message "we can't win with our own ships, so we need to use GTVA ships to win" to both sides and thus reduce the morale impact on the GTVA while hampering the morale gain of the UEF troops.
I wanna choose the cat.Admiral CareySpoiler:does in fact support the UEF, her dissimination of information plays a key role throughout the second half of War in Heaven
too bad it was a carp.
Indeed. Why choose the red or black ants when one can choose a fish?
Also, a single Hyperion and a single Chimera operated by inexperienced crews really do not bring in enough combat ability to decisively sway any battle in the UEF's favour.Who says they would be inexperienced? Didn't their crews manage to defect along with the ships?
. . . it's like the idea that a Arleigh Burke and an Oliver Hazard Perry could take on a whole US Carrier battle group.Do you think that Steele could?
The crews may have defected, but that doesn't neccesarily mean that they'd be willing to turn around and kill their former comrades. Plus there's a high likelihood that a significant fraction of the crew disagreed with the decision to defect, so at least part of the crew would be new by neccessity. Finally, the UEF might not entirely trust the entire crew enough to allow them to stay with their ship - you might not be able to guarantee they'd follow orders, for example, to kill rather than disable GTVA ships - and replaced the crews entirely.Also, a single Hyperion and a single Chimera operated by inexperienced crews really do not bring in enough combat ability to decisively sway any battle in the UEF's favour.Who says they would be inexperienced? Didn't their crews manage to defect along with the ships?
Or did the ships just jettison the people before going to Earth~?
The crews may have defected, but that doesn't neccesarily mean that they'd be willing to turn around and kill their former comrades. Plus there's a high likelihood that a significant fraction of the crew disagreed with the decision to defect, so at least part of the crew would be new by neccessity. Finally, the UEF might not entirely trust the entire crew enough to allow them to stay with their ship - you might not be able to guarantee they'd follow orders, for example, to kill rather than disable GTVA ships - and replaced the crews entirely.True, but even if most (if not all) of the crew was replaced with UEF personnel, I think that the war has been going on long enough for them to be at least competent in the running of the ship.
Using those ships in a decisive battle that concludes in the UEF's favor would have huge psychological impact on the GTVA, sort of like salt in the proverbial wounds.Or it would send the message "we can't win with our own ships, so we need to use GTVA ships to win" to both sides and thus reduce the morale impact on the GTVA while hampering the morale gain of the UEF troops.
Would the UEF even need to reverse engineer beamcannons from the parts in the Labouchere and Duke?
I mean they got two logistics ships and while the Solace might have been depleted, the Agincourt surely was well supplyed when it was taken over. That includes parts for beamcannons or maybe even fully assembled pieces of the smaller ones (AAA or the cruiser beams come to mind).
And unless both Anemois databanks were completely purged by GTVA loyal crewmembers, the UEF is bound to have very extensive data on beamcannon technology from one or both of those ships too (and a few technicians who defected, like TwentyPercentCooler already said). There should really be no need to take apart the two combatships, unless it has something to do with studying their meson reactors perhaps.
As for mixing GTVA and UEF crews on those two ships, I think that might be a bad idea. We don't have much information about the training of GTVA and UEF crews, but considering the differences in culture, philosophy and government I suspect it to be quite extensive. And in the missions we already heard (or rather saw) that the UEF seems to use different terminology ("vampires approaching, fangs out"or somesuch for example).
Put the terminology and crew taining differences together and possibly some crewmembers feeling themselfs superiour to the member of the other faction and you likely end up with a mixed crew working less effective than a crew of greenhorns that all had the same training.
If anything, I think that the closest thing to a UEF ace-in-the-hole, if there's going to be one, will likely be the GTC Duke. The ship's crew was completely overtaken by the Vishnans during AoA, and at the very least, they managed to push the subspace drive far beyond its standard operating limits. It's quite conceivable that there's still Vishnan data floating around inside the Duke's computers.
If this is the case, the imagination truly is the limit. Will we see superweapons? Some anti-subspace device? Telepathic hacking?
Never mind, the GTC Duke is the perfect ship for a behind-the-scenes, secret escort mission. Cruisers are weak and vulnerable, and some random heavy fighter squadron could pose a significant threat to it. Unlike escorting a destroyer, the Tevs would not need to discover the UEF's secret mission and mount a full-scale assault, to have a decent shot at taking it out.
Never mind, if they can somehow sneak through the Delta Serpentis node (cloaking device, decoys, diversion, extensive jamming, etc), there's the N-362 Knossos portal. The Vishnans needed a giant ship to alter the node for trans-dimensional transit. A reconfiguration of the portal may be able to accomplish the same thing. They could perhaps open a node through space and time.
The BP team never fails to impress. Just when I thought it couldn't get any cooler than a mod involving travelling to a parallel universe infested with Shivans, they launched War in Heaven...which was the best gaming experience I've ever had. Whatever they are planning for BP3, I have little doubt that it will be awesome. :cool:
On the other hand, what do you think of supplementing some 1st Fleet frigates with a forward (and maybe aft) beam cannon? The pilots would know to stay away from there because of the railguns and such. Why not add a bit of firepower to the ships that have (possibly) access to the Solice and Agincourt?
On the other hand the Naras big guns also have quite long barrels.On the other hand, what do you think of supplementing some 1st Fleet frigates with a forward (and maybe aft) beam cannon? The pilots would know to stay away from there because of the railguns and such. Why not add a bit of firepower to the ships that have (possibly) access to the Solice and Agincourt?
I doubt it's that easy. The Chimera and Bellerephon models are essentially beam cannons with engines; any UEF ships that used beams would similarly need to be designed and built around the beam cannons rather than have them added post-construction.
The Fenris, Leviathan, and Orion laugh at your statement.
Did you just compare the fixing up of fighters with completely rebuilding a capital ships?-No, I didn't... I'm pretty sure that ship partially repaired the frigates. Although, I'd have to replay to be sure. I know it said something about running on full efficiency, and I think the frigates were at full health for the next mission.
As for the Orions, I suppose they were scrapped when the GTA was dissolved. They were after all a symbol of GTA authority and militarism, so getting rid of them would discourage any remaining followers from rebelling in the period were the Ubuntu party rose to power.
Also, unlike the GTVAs Hecate, the Solaris is superiour to the (old, non beam) Orion in every way, except perhaps the ability to fly independently without any supply - a situation being unlikely in the extreme within sol.
-More likely, the Orions were "mothballed". I know about what happens to old ships like that. So, I don't see the problem with breaking out one or two. Unless of course, the GTVA attack on Earth specifically targeted mothball fleets too.
The UEF isn't going to beat the GTVA through brute military strength anyways. Beams, more ships, these things the GTVA can counter, easily.Nope, but the UEF is at a point where it needs to gain as much time as possible for the Elder's project. Every ship counts.
Now that you mention it, the Sanctuary does have one advantage. It was designed to be self sufficient and sustain a lot of people in cold sleep.-There you go.
If they switch those systems off, they got a lot of excess energy and if they completely remove them, they also got a lot of free space (no pun intended) inside the ship. At the very least this should enable them to put in loads of massdrivers, even if they can't outfit it with beams.
As for the frigates, I think they were able to do all those repairs not so much because of the parts the Agincourt carried, but because of the personel, raw materials (for hull repairs) and most of all several days (wasn't it two weeks?) without anything else to do and very little danger of getting into battle, since they were making a silent run in the middle of nowhere.
How would you know that...?-More likely, the Orions were "mothballed". I know about what happens to old ships like that. So, I don't see the problem with breaking out one or two. Unless of course, the GTVA attack on Earth specifically targeted mothball fleets too.
Wrong. There are no ex-GTA Orions available for reactivation. Even if they were, the UEF does not have the ressources to spare to bring them up to serviceable condition (all yard space is taken up by repair work or for new construction), and their manpower requirements are such that the UEF does not have the personnel required to operate them.
And that's assuming that there still are old Orions in mothballs; there are none.
How would you know that...?Dude, he's in the BP team.
I knew you would say that, and that worries me since we know that (even according to BP-verse lore) there was at least two Orions in Sol at the end of the Great War.How would you know that...?Dude, he's in the BP team.
I knew you would say that, and that worries me since we know that (even according to BP-verse lore) there was at least two Orions in Sol at the end of the Great War.How would you know that...?Dude, he's in the BP team.
Sanctuary, and that one that would have fought with the Lucifer. Given that it didn't fight with the Lucifer, it must still exist. I'd believe that it could have been stripped of non-essentials, but it would take a huge suspension of disbelief for me to accept ALL functioning destroyers to just be scrapped for no reason.
Pluto's looking like less of a joke now...
Unless, it was at Jupiter. Then, it's gone.
EDIT:
Oh yeah. I forgot to mention the Agincourt again...
... no need for all that space to be taken up in some base hangar~
Speaking of the name "Agincourt"... wasn't that in Mass Effect too? Or did they originally take it from somewhere else?
I knew you would say that, and that worries me since we know that (even according to BP-verse lore) there was at least two Orions in Sol at the end of the Great War.
Sanctuary, and that one that would have fought with the Lucifer.
stuff hereGuess it's time to start shoring up my ability to suspend disbelief for the next time :rolleyes:
They mount Fusion Mortars. Look at the tables, guys.Where are those tables, again? I'd like to look at those.
Yes I know and already wrote so in my previous post.Well, yes. There is that. Although, this game has a team of people who are up to the task of altering the old design of the Sanctuary, if necessary.
As for the seeming multi-barrel turrets:
In the original model those were indeed weaponsystems (Dawn of Sol for example used them for beams IIRC), but in the BP version those turrets were deactivated or something. They still show up in FRED, but you can't assign them any weapons and they also aren't targetable ingame.
As for backstory, they might have something to do with the purpose of the Sanctuary. It was supposed to be self-sufficient enough to endure 50 years of being hidden away in some nebula. They might be a means to gather gas from the nebula used for a variety of purposes (source of fuel and water, maybe air) or they might just have been transport tubes for bringing in the sleeper tubes.
Or it's just a legacy of the original model that Darius had to live with, due to no better suited model being available. Remember that the first version of AoA didn't have a team of people, nor any modelers. It was done by Darius alone.
Never mind that even IF the practically ancient Orion hulks weren't flown into the sun, they would be stripped of all usable components.-repairs like on just such a hulk?
What this equates to is bringing in a team of engineers to completely rebuild every single component of a scrapped aircraft sitting in a museum (such as an XB-70 or a SR-71). There's a reason it doesn't work. It's obsolete technology, and they'd have to engineer old and obsolete parts for it. Or spend exorbitant amounts of time adapting new technology to such an old frame.
Even if the Solace and Aginourt could take an orion hulk and poop out a fully functioning destroyer a week later, the UEF would be infinitely better off using such a strategic resource to build a fourth Solaris. And this assumes that the logistics ships can even construct capital ships. All we know for certain is that it repairs them.
Much more likely: Byrne is still sitting at Earth. Netreba is still sitting at Mars. Calder doesn't have the Jovian worlds to defend, so there's no reason the Toutatis can't go on the offensive. The Sanctuary might join up with Calder, along with the two logistics ships, a handful of Naranyas, Karunas, and Sanctuses, and...wait, this fleet format seems vaguely familiar (from Age of Aquarius).
stuff hereGuess it's time to start shoring up my ability to suspend disbelief for the next time :rolleyes:
-repairs like on just such a hulk?
Keep in mind just how amazing WiH paints ships like the Agincourt as being. Just three terran ships for all of the GTVA fleet?
Unless we're just supposed to forget all that now~
When Byrne started arguing for the Solaris class, his main argument was that while the Frigate Navy was very good at policing the solar system, in the event of a shivan incursion into Sol heavily concentrated firepower and distributed command were a necessity. As the UEF economy had recovered enough to absorb the cost of designing, building and maintaining these beasts, he was able to acquire the funding necessary.
A long time to kill does not equal invulnerable. The fact that they CAN do it means a lot when in the FS1 era it's entirely impossible except in hyperspace.
Sure it does. . . did you see how long it took the a Raynor, a Bellerophon, a Chimera and a Hyperion to take out that Lucifer? A long time. Though its not invulnerable, its still remarkably tough.
stuff hereGuess it's time to start shoring up my ability to suspend disbelief for the next time :rolleyes:
Look, I gave you a perfectly reasonable, in-universe reasoning as to why the UEF does not use and does not intend to use Great War era craft. You can take it or leave it, but please, don't just say "I don't buy it" and :rolleyes: at me. That's more than a bit disrespectful.Quote-repairs like on just such a hulk?
Keep in mind just how amazing WiH paints ships like the Agincourt as being. Just three terran ships for all of the GTVA fleet?
Unless we're just supposed to forget all that now~
Disregards several important factors.
One, Anemoi-class ships, while very useful, need a trained crew to operate at peak capacity. Which is something the UEF just doesn't have, given their lack of Anemois or GTVA equipment in general. While they can make them work for their purposes (the Tech base hasn't drifted that much between the two), that's something else than the high turnaround a trained GTVA crew could manage. Also, there are no Orion hulks left to be refurbished in Sol, as I believe to have stated previously.
Two, Byrne's secret project, which he believes to be enough of a gamechanger to win this war, is a massive engineering project being rushed to completion using the ressources of (Post-Aristeia) two Anemois.
Three, the Solaris IS a very very capable class. It can take on two or three GTVA Destroyers at once and come out on top (Provided there's adequate fighter support, if there isn't, a Solaris can still go toe-to-toe with at least one Destroyer, more if none of its opponents are Titans or Raynors).
-I guess I can believe that. Although, there were a bunch of trained GTVA defectors a while back...
Unless they required very SPECIAL training? Training that they didn't have?
because throwing them away would be more expensive than just leaving them to drift?How is pointing it toward the sun, giving it a little shove and letting sir isaac newton do the rest expensive?
How is pointing it toward the sun, giving it a little shove and letting sir isaac newton do the rest expensive?
because throwing them away would be more expensive than just leaving them to drift?Well there would be danger that someone would take that warship, (gefs for example).
I'll let the physics quote stand for itself, but preventing theft is very easy. Send two or three fighters along and have them yell for help if any suspicous ships appear.
How is pointing it toward the sun, giving it a little shove and letting sir isaac newton do the rest expensive?
physics in FS universe is different than physics is our universe.
For exmple ships in FS will stop when you destroy their engines. And antimatery warheads are doing smaller explosions than exploding ships. Even if this was possible i would say that's not good idea, cuz anyone could steal it before it would reach the sun(for example gefs).
Indeed. But I can state with absolute certainty that we do not plan to bring in any GW-era craft on the UEF side.Nothing wrong with a little speculation, is there?
Oh, so you're implying that the Indus should've blown up its own engines so it wouldn't get sucked into the sun?physics in FS universe is different than physics is our universe.
How is pointing it toward the sun, giving it a little shove and letting sir isaac newton do the rest expensive?
For exmple ships in FS will stop when you destroy their engines.
Remember that the Gefs, at this point, have GTVA support. Stealing the ship within 10 minutes isn't impossible, not for the GTVA. Especially, not for the GTVI (who I believe would handle the operation).We were in fact talking about the time the Orions were either taken apart or destroyed, which was done long before the war started. My guess would be, that it was one of the first things the Ubuntu did after they had controll over the entire Earth and Luna, at the latest when Mars and Jupiter joined up.
Now, if you're talking about before the war, then that's different.
-As far as destroying them is concerned, I would see that as hypocrisy on the part of the government; Using violent means to end the memory of a violent past. Political Fallout ensues. If they really are the great understanding pacifists that they say they are, they wouldn't even consider the option anyway.Remember that the Gefs, at this point, have GTVA support. Stealing the ship within 10 minutes isn't impossible, not for the GTVA. Especially, not for the GTVI (who I believe would handle the operation).We were in fact talking about the time the Orions were either taken apart or destroyed, which was done long before the war started. My guess would be, that it was one of the first things the Ubuntu did after they had controll over the entire Earth and Luna, at the latest when Mars and Jupiter joined up.
Now, if you're talking about before the war, then that's different.
Political Fallout?You're missing the point.
Why would people who just got dragged out of the worst economic crisis in Human history go totally berserk at their saviours, because the ships that represent the previous government, who was at fault for those problems, are destroyed, violently or not? It's far more likely that they would gather in public places, watch the spectacle on big screens and cheer to the pictures of the Orion(s) blowing up.
The Ubuntu, while being peace loving, are NOT hardcore pacifists who avoid violence at any and all costs like Mahatma Ghandi. They do employ force and violence if it is the best option. But since force is very, very seldom the best option, they use violence hardly at all. But two years of bloody conflict show that they are capable controlled violence, without the civilians going haywire over it.
Besides, letting the ships glide into the sun can hardly be called violent means. Rather than a violent destruction, that has more the feel of a space funeral that many other Sci-Fi franchises employ (Babylon 5 and Star Trek being two famous ones) - though for people, not ships obviously.Talk to the crew of the Indus about the sun being non-violent.
Please state what your trying to say again, I'm not sure if I get it.Me or him?
But, there is this ship sitting around now... filled with systems. Systems that they can use. So, they probably take those.Actually in my previous post I typed out that the destroyers would be gutted of anything usefull before they get destroyed, but then removed it again before posting to keep the text shorter, because I assumed it was unneccesary to point out something so obvious.... guess I was wrong about that.
At this point, most people have probably forgotten about these ships in favor of the new stuff that is being designed/built for the military."At this point" was right after the Ubuntu party took over from the GTA (on Earth anyway) in my original argument. So no, people wouldn't have forgotten about those ships. Besides the Orion was around for a very long time and was the very symbol of GTA authority. That isn't something people just forget after one or two years.... or a decade for that matter.
Talk to the crew of the Indus about the sun being non-violent.A great arguement, except for a "tiny" flaw. The Indus' crew was hurting and dying from the radiation. If they shot the Orions into the sun they would naturally be completely unmanned at that time and the people back on Earth who watch it would be millions of kilometers away from danger.
As I already pointed out before the Ubuntu party is NOT PACIFISTIC!Shooting away from the point again.
They are economists and scientists.
They didn't come to power because they promised pacificm. They came to power because they fixed the collapsing economy (first locally on a small scale and then further and further), made sure people got jobs, food and a roof over their heads, not to mention good education.
The only time "pacifists" is mentioned in the backstory is in the half propaganda half-informative FAQ-like article in which the GTVA high command informs it's crews what Ubuntu is.
Pacifists don't have armies. Pacifists don't try to kill Gefs. Pacifists don't resist a superiour enemy for two years.
Insulting, and missing a point. I already stated that the ships would be removed of useful systems regardless of final result.QuoteBut, there is this ship sitting around now... filled with systems. Systems that they can use. So, they probably take those.Actually in my previous post I typed out that the destroyers would be gutted of anything usefull before they get destroyed, but then removed it again before posting to keep the text shorter, because I assumed it was unneccesary to point out something so obvious.... guess I was wrong about that.
Perhaps not. Although, I think that you're underestimating the fickle masses. It still doesn't matter though.QuoteAt this point, most people have probably forgotten about these ships in favor of the new stuff that is being designed/built for the military."At this point" was right after the Ubuntu party took over from the GTA (on Earth anyway) in my original argument. So no, people wouldn't have forgotten about those ships. Besides the Orion was around for a very long time and was the very symbol of GTA authority. That isn't something people just forget after one or two years.... or a decade for that matter.
Thanks~ Unless you're being sarcastic which is, again, insulting.QuoteTalk to the crew of the Indus about the sun being non-violent.A great arguement, except for a "tiny" flaw. The Indus' crew was hurting and dying from the radiation. If they shot the Orions into the sun they would naturally be completely unmanned at that time and the people back on Earth who watch it would be millions of kilometers away from danger.
This discussion is effectively over.You didn't even read my posts, did you? If I'm just going to be ignored, then there really is no reason to continue... or no reason to use subtlety.
Jericho, you are right now repeating your opinion over and over. Doing so does not make it right. I and others have given several possible explanations why your dream scenario of UEF-operated GW ships won't happen. You saying "This does not make sense to me" will not change our opinion on the matter, and given that there's no reason for us to include such information in the canon, there will never be a definitive answer to the issue.
My advice would be to drop this topic effective immediately.
How about keeping a few ships around as museum pieces as a reminder of what Earth used to be and as a nod to its victory over the Lucifer?I believe that I suggested something similar.
I was referring to the GTA's Victory, and the most prominent symbol of a government's military power is typically its capital ships. It used to be its battleships, but after WWII it became carriers. The Orion fulfills both.Those strikecraft were also sent in by an Orion, but that's just picking at details.