Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: sigtau on November 12, 2012, 03:43:27 pm
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http://www.examiner.com/article/citizens-from-20-states-have-filed-to-secede-from-the-united-states
In lieu of Obama's recent re-election, citizens from twenty states (starting with Louisiana, followed shortly thereafter by Texas) have filed petitions on the White House's official web site to secede from the Union.
Here's a link to the White House's official petition hub (https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions), where already several of the aforementioned states are garnering attention on the front page.
According to the terms of the White House's petition hub, "To cross the second threshold and require a response [from the White House], a petition must reach 25,000 signatures within 30 days." (https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/how-why/terms-participation)
My question: What the ****, America? :banghead:
EDIT: An update from Gawker (http://gawker.com/5959719/we-the-people-petitions-filed-in-nineteen-states-seeking-permission-to-secede-from-the-union):
UPDATE: In just a few short hours, the petition asking the Obama administration to "peacefully grant" Texas secession has gained over 10,000 signatures, surpassing the 25,000 necessary to elicit a response from the government.
Well, ****.
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What...
I...
WHAT?
Ok, the only response any of them will get from the White House is "lol nope", so I don't know why they're bothering.
EDIT: In fact, doesn't such a request have to come from the State's government to be legitimate? AFAIK, this is just people talking.
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Well, that's either be gonna the darkest hour of 21st century, or a barrel of laughs. I hope for the latter. I don't want a second Civil War.
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Divided States of America. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DividedStatesOfAmerica) Reality is unrealistic. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic)
Damn, I know this is really bad but... this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvkjewgF8GQ) is all that comes to mind at the moment.
Republitards are terrible losers.
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what happens if a derp protest like this actually succeeds?
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God almighty stop freaking out, barely anyone has signed these petitions and they will never go anywhere.
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The scary thought is that anyone did sign those petitions, and somebody considered wasting time writing them. Just how stupid people can be (don't answer that)?
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Seriously, guys? That's aimed at HLP, not the signees, no matter how stupid that may be at the same time.
Private citizens of twenty different states, numbering less than a hundred thousand people, are signing petitions to have the government review their proposal to grant secession to their respective states.
The state governments have **** all to do with this. Garnering the number of signatures just means that the government has to "officially" laugh it out of the building instead of doing it informally.
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f a second American Civil War (which would almost inevitably happen if the secessions were to occur),
how in the bloody hell do you arrive at this conclusion? you know what, don't even answer that.
.... i started to make a larger quote ladder and actually say something about this, but since i know the only response i will get is flames and Republitards
suffice it to say:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b345/Klaustrophobia/expression/I-sigh.jpg)
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I suppose my civil war comment was more paranoid than it needed to be. The point is, if by some crazy, convoluted bull****, these 20 states were granted independence... there would inevitably be war between them or between the non-seceded and the seceded at some point.
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how, why :|
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They wouldn't be able to sustain themselves as a country if they were to separate. I doubt any of these states are even remotely self sufficient enough
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Private citizens of twenty different states, numbering less than a hundred thousand people, are signing petitions to have the government review their proposal to grant secession to their respective states.
The state governments have **** all to do with this. Garnering the number of signatures just means that the government has to "officially" laugh it out of the building instead of doing it informally.
Pretty much this.
I'm still shocked that anyone would go so far as to make "official" petitions of this nature. I suppose I shouldn't be, but I am.
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They wouldn't be able to sustain themselves as a country if they were to separate. I doubt any of these states are even remotely self sufficient enough
For the sake of argument: why does this matter? Lots of countries import significant quantities of necessary goods.
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I am guessing the biggest ball ache would be sustaining a currency as there is no pre-existing independent economy to back it up, while the split would shake up the Dollar the fact that there is a pre-existing economy will mitigate the effect compared to the new nation
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God almighty stop freaking out, barely anyone has signed these petitions and they will never go anywhere.
This. The denizens of HLP of all people should know internet petitions never do anything anyway, otherwise we'd have had FS3 years ago.
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yay!
*gets shotgun and rebel uniform*
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God almighty stop freaking out, barely anyone has signed these petitions and they will never go anywhere.
This. The denizens of HLP of all people should know internet petitions never do anything anyway, otherwise we'd have had FS3 years ago.
Does that mean if this is successful ... there is hope for FS3 !??! :cough cough: :P
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At Klaus: all working as planned!
Also, maybe THIS is what 2012's gonna be all about!?! :Conspiracy Keanu:
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LOL DERP.
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/me braces for the impending car crash
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Hey guys, you lost the war.
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i usually vote for the guy most likely to start a nuclear war. and im sure another civil war would go nuclear. so i got a massive boner right now.
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http://www.****thesouth.com/
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texas just got their 25000 signatures.
the fire will burn...
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Yup. Fueled by the bodies of 25000 republican fanatics, I presume. :)
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http://www.****thesouth.com/
yep, that's pretty much why we want to leave.
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Not going to happen, just some mad right wing nut cases saber rattling as usual. The only problem is that these idiots shout so loudly that they can't be ignored only dismissed.
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http://www.****thesouth.com/
yep, that's pretty much why we want to leave.
Cause someone called you out on being arrogant? Sounds to me that the guy is just making a rather sarcastic point about how sanctimonious the south are to the north and why they should stop. Seceding is just more of the same.
What I find hilarious is that I'd bet money that a significant number of those who signed were the same people who tried to cram "We must stand united behind the president during a time of war" bull**** down our throats when Bush was in charge.
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Fun fact: you can register as a minor (over the age of 13) on the petition site. And still sign petitions. :doubt:
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Best quote from an article about this:
Oddly, folks from Georgia have filed twice. Even stranger, several of the petitions come from states that went for President Barack Obama.
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So, first I was like... they are petitioning Obama? Why are they not petitioning their state governments, so they can actually do the thing?
Then I thought... oh, maybe they just want to force Obama to comment on it, and don't expect it to actually go anywhere.
@Klaustrophobia: :confused: Are you from the South?
And seriously, Lincoln should've just let 'em secede. The Civil War was stupid.
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So, first I was like... they are petitioning Obama? Why are they not petitioning their state governments, so they can actually do the thing?
Then I thought... oh, maybe they just want to force Obama to comment on it, and don't expect it to actually go anywhere.
@Klaustrophobia: :confused: Are you from the South?
And seriously, Lincoln should've just let 'em secede. The Civil War was stupid.
If 20+ petitions pass the 25K mark, then Obama needs to make 20+ responses. Odds are, they'll all be the same canned response--but they'll be asking for essentially full comments (versus "Uh, no"--which confirms Obama is ready to use force against currently American citizens... or "Yeah, sure" which opens the option entirely).
Look, not saying it's good or bad, but there's 2 important things. The first is the right to self-determination. The USA wouldn't be a nation if not for seceding from Great Britain. The second is the fact that "xxx couldn't survive on its own" arguments are completely wrong. If you say these state can't survive peacefully on its own, then which states can? It could become the choice between 50 individual states going down together (with the USA on a whole) or 50 states going down alone (50 different times).
The latter outcome, at least, isn't particularly likely. If you want to say that the 50 states can't survive alone, you're right--no one state has sufficient financial, agricultural, industrial, or natural resources to survive alone. But, then again, neither does the nation as a whole. We're lacking industrial resources at the very least, and arguments could be made that we also lack financial, agricultural, and natural resources too.
I'm curious as to Obama's response regarding the Texas petition. That's one that that the citizens could well petition their state government to secede--regardless of the White House's response. (If the White House says no, they'll say they're tyrannical--and secede anyway. If the WH says yes, they'll secede because they apparently have the legal right to.) Of all states, Texas is probably the best prepared for those eventualities.
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(versus "Uh, no"--which confirms Obama is ready to use force against currently American citizens... or "Yeah, sure" which opens the option entirely).
Anyone who thinks it would require federal government intervention to keep this from happening (and, therefore, means what you say it means) really needs a reality check on the whole situation.
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So, first I was like... they are petitioning Obama? Why are they not petitioning their state governments, so they can actually do the thing?
Then I thought... oh, maybe they just want to force Obama to comment on it, and don't expect it to actually go anywhere.
@Klaustrophobia: :confused: Are you from the South?
And seriously, Lincoln should've just let 'em secede. The Civil War was stupid.
If 20+ petitions pass the 25K mark, then Obama needs to make 20+ responses. Odds are, they'll all be the same canned response--but they'll be asking for essentially full comments (versus "Uh, no"--which confirms Obama is ready to use force against currently American citizens... or "Yeah, sure" which opens the option entirely).
Look, not saying it's good or bad, but there's 2 important things. The first is the right to self-determination. The USA wouldn't be a nation if not for seceding from Great Britain. The second is the fact that "xxx couldn't survive on its own" arguments are completely wrong. If you say these state can't survive peacefully on its own, then which states can? It could become the choice between 50 individual states going down together (with the USA on a whole) or 50 states going down alone (50 different times).
The latter outcome, at least, isn't particularly likely. If you want to say that the 50 states can't survive alone, you're right--no one state has sufficient financial, agricultural, industrial, or natural resources to survive alone. But, then again, neither does the nation as a whole. We're lacking industrial resources at the very least, and arguments could be made that we also lack financial, agricultural, and natural resources too.
I'm curious as to Obama's response regarding the Texas petition. That's one that that the citizens could well petition their state government to secede--regardless of the White House's response. (If the White House says no, they'll say they're tyrannical--and secede anyway. If the WH says yes, they'll secede because they apparently have the legal right to.) Of all states, Texas is probably the best prepared for those eventualities.
Look at all these words about a petition with an insignificant number of angry people on it
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"xxx couldn't survive on its own" arguments are completely wrong. If you say these state can't survive peacefully on its own, then which states can?
Eh? I take it you are interpreting my "Lincoln should've just let 'em secede" remark as "they would've rotted and collapsed"? I was thinking it, but I didn't say it :P
But the South wasn't just a bunch of separate states. And if these states were to secede today, I doubt they would remain separate either.
That said, I don't know whether the CSA formed before or after the whole Fort Sumter debacle.
Edit: @Scotty: The fact that an actual secession is not going to go anywhere is irrelevant to what I believe Bob-san is saying. The actual petitions may be in the form of "we want to secede", but by asking Obama instead of their state governments, it's effectively forcing him to make a policy decision RE: "if our state government votes to secede, can we do it peacefully?" And Obama would have to be stupid to give an un-qualified "yes" or "no" answer, for reasons Bob-san has already addressed.
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That would be relevent, except you're missing one very, hugely, exceedingly, astronomically important fact: This isn't the state governments. This is private citizens acting on their own, without any kind of state government support.
The federal government wouldn't have to do **** if these private citizens decided to try and secede anyway. The state governments would take care of it much more quickly and easily.
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http://www.****thesouth.com/
Oh, man, that whole link is funny, but
Arrogant? You wanna talk about us Northeasterners being ****ing arrogant? What's more American than arrogance? Hmmm? Maybe horsies? I don't think so. Arrogance is the ****ing cornerstone of what it means to be American.
Takes the cake.
I laughed the whole list through. Although losing Disney World would suck.
EDIT: I'm from Illinois, I'm allowed to laugh at the US, most of us know it's true anyway. :p
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(versus "Uh, no"--which confirms Obama is ready to use force against currently American citizens... or "Yeah, sure" which opens the option entirely).
Anyone who thinks it would require federal government intervention to keep this from happening (and, therefore, means what you say it means) really needs a reality check on the whole situation.
It'd probably be defeated by the citizens of each individual state, but then each state might have citizens petitioning independently of the others. That means that, while 49 states may have a referendum & decide NOT to secede, the 50th could instead secede. And success/failure of that state (and the federal response to it) will rally and change the opinions of both secessionists & federalists.
The reality is it won't happen on November 12, 2012. But, the time is coming where it COULD happen. Every political entity in history has had numbered days: the USA (and all others) will have to join that list one day or another. It may take decades or centuries but, one day, the USA will cease to exist.
That would be relevent, except you're missing one very, hugely, exceedingly, astronomically important fact: This isn't the state governments. This is private citizens acting on their own, without any kind of state government support.
The federal government wouldn't have to do **** if these private citizens decided to try and secede anyway. The state governments would take care of it much more quickly and easily.
There are already citizens who have convinced themselves that they've opted out of the federal system. Except, these "sovereign citizens" are now considered a domestic terrorist group regardless of their actual intentions or state philosophies. Guess what--things aren't all rosy, and the states that joined the USA either existed as independent entities before or as territories that opted to join.
"xxx couldn't survive on its own" arguments are completely wrong. If you say these state can't survive peacefully on its own, then which states can?
Eh? I take it you are interpreting my "Lincoln should've just let 'em secede" remark as "they would've rotted and collapsed"? I was thinking it, but I didn't say it :P
But the South wasn't just a bunch of separate states. And if these states were to secede today, I doubt they would remain separate either.
That said, I don't know whether the CSA formed before or after the whole Fort Sumter debacle.
Edit: @Scotty: The fact that an actual secession is not going to go anywhere is irrelevant to what I believe Bob-san is saying. The actual petitions may be in the form of "we want to secede", but by asking Obama instead of their state governments, it's effectively forcing him to make a policy decision RE: "if our state government votes to secede, can we do it peacefully?" And Obama would have to be stupid to give an un-qualified "yes" or "no" answer, for reasons Bob-san has already addressed.
They might rot & collapse, but I think that (if the US government fell apart tomorrow & 50 states were now individual countries) only some of those states will rot & die while others will find the correct balances to survive--perhaps founding new regional confederations and perhaps rebuilding the USA in a new image.
Yes, they're forcing a policy decision. Or at least trying to. The Texas petition is sufficient to rile some support for secession--this may become a game of chess for those secessionists and the Federal government. It's been nearly 150 years since the Civil War--and the secession question's bloody answer apparently needs revisiting.
The scary truth of it all is that the Federal government and the Presidency especially has acquired a LOT of new power in the past 50 years. Phony wars and partisan politics have resulted in Bush & Obama having a LOT of power. The scariest powers, in my book, are to spy on American citizens without warrants and to administer a "kill list" which, in the past, has targeted American citizens overseas. If for no other reason than those two issues, I'd say it's high time nullification occurs and the States resist the federal government.
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...and there goes louisiana...
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Can NE secede and rejoin the Commonwealth? :lol:
Dear UK,
Sorry about the tea.
Cheers,
New England
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They wouldn't be able to sustain themselves as a country if they were to separate. I doubt any of these states are even remotely self sufficient enough
For the sake of argument: why does this matter? Lots of countries import significant quantities of necessary goods.
Fair point, but most if not all those imports will have to go through the coast
Chances of goodwill between Loyalists and Separatists is unlikely, and the Loyalists have the Coasts. They'd just have to seize all incoming imports
However, the states that would separate, have the most farmland. In turn, that'd hamper the coasts far more than anything
Could go either way
Question being, is what would happen Economically? If the dollar takes a significant dip, the entire USA might just end up being screwed
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Let them leave. On the account they take the national debt with them. :p
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I'd expect a title like this from Faux News. You disappoint me, HLP member. :nono:
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https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/deport-everyone-signed-petition-withdraw-their-state-united-states-america/dmQl1bXL
Hey guys, let's sign this one
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I think this thread is fulfilling my weekly requirement of amusement. =)
A+
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https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/deport-everyone-signed-petition-withdraw-their-state-united-states-america/dmQl1bXL
Hey guys, let's sign this one
nah, but i did sign the one to leegalize marijuana.
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https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/deport-everyone-signed-petition-withdraw-their-state-united-states-america/dmQl1bXL
Hey guys, let's sign this one
Signatures needed by December 12, 2012 to reach goal of 25,000
23,941
:lol:
The white house will probably need to address a whole bunch of these **** petitions.
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I know we've been promised a "new" kind of government by the people for the people that was brought by the amazing powers of the internet. What they didn't tell us was how 99% of it was completely wasteful and idiotic nonsense and counter-nonsense. Congratulations, US, you are now entering Gov 2.0: The Trolling Wasteland.
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- Texas 68K
- Louisiana 28K
- Florida 20K
- Georgia 19K
- Alabama 19K
- Tennessee 19K
- North Carolina 18K
- South Carolina 15K
- Arkansas 14K
- Colorado 14K
- Indiana 13K
- Michigan 13K
- Mississippi 12K
- Kentucky 12K
- Missouri 12K
- Arizona 11K
- New York 11K
- South Carolina 11K (duplicate)
- Oklahoma 11K
- Oregon 10K
- Missouri 10K (duplicate)
- New Jersey 10K
- Montana 10K
- Georgia 9K (duplicate)
- North Dakota 9K
- Pennsylvania 7K
- Nevada 6K
- California 5K
- Ohio 5K
- Delaware 4K
- New York 4K (duplicate)
- Wyoming 4K
- Utah 4K
- Oklahoma 3K (duplicate)
- Alaska 3K
- Kansas 3K
- Pennsylvania 2K (duplicate)
- Nebraska 2K
- Strip possible secessionists of their citizenship 1K
- West Virginia 1K
- Deport possible secessionists 1K
- South Dakota 1K
- Ohio <1K (duplicate)
- Utah <1K (duplicate)
That's a LOT of petitions. 42 petitions presumably representing the citizens of 36 states in favor of possible secession.
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if you add up the numbers and assume that there arent no duplicates (there probibly are) then thats about a half million people who want out.
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So in other words '**** all'
fe: Most of these people are signatories because they are mad about the election. I can't believe you guys think this will have the slightest effect on anything, or even reflects any particular desire to secede. It's just another permutation of 'moving to Canada'
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if this has really done anything it has reminded me about what i dont like about both political parties. that so many voters decided to side with either the semi-extreme left or the hard extreme right. what they do not realize is that the wider the gap between the parties the more political energy ends up getting wasted on tug of war politics, and less goes to actually solving problems.
i knew johnson wasnt gonna win when i voted, what i didnt expect was that so few people actually voted for him or any other 3rd party candidate to voice their concerns about the major political parties. so most likely nothing of interest will happen. but if it does i will bring sunglasses and a bag of marshmallows and watch it all burn.
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Signatures needed by December 12, 2012 to reach goal of 25,000
23,941
:lol:
The white house will probably need to address a whole bunch of these **** petitions.
It's 22,677 needed now. So it's growing fairly quickly too. :D
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It's more annoying than anything else. Especially seeing as I'm living down here right in the midst of it. (Texas). Most of the guys at work are talking about these petitions as a laughing matter, as in, "Oh come on, really? This is going to accomplish anything?" But not all of them. And even a lot of the ones that are laughing would jump at the chance to secede if they thought it actually had a chance of succeeding.
It's depressing. Not because it has a chance in hell of changing anything, but because all of this partisan crap has descended to this level of pettiness.
It's kind of like Nuke said. All of this energy and potential for communication and potential for actual WORK getting done is getting wasted on bile and vitriol going back and forth between adherents of both dominant political parties. The nation gets more and more polarized over, "My ****ing terrible political party is better than YOUR ****ing terrible political party."
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Can we gather all of these fools together to petition for something useful, like abolishing the FEC or making sure the Audit the FED Bill gets to the Senate?
:nervous:
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Audit the FED Bill
Why is it that everyone who demands this is everyone who is least-qualified to understand it?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWXrMCGJT4
Please continue, NGTM-1R...
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I just realized something. Is there anything stopping non-US citizens from signing those petitions, or US citizens not from the state in question?
We could be looking at a pretty large number of troll signatures.
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I just realized something. Is there anything stopping non-US citizens from signing those petitions, or US citizens not from the state in question?
We could be looking at a pretty large number of troll signatures.
I know I've signed some of those petitions before, and I'm from the land of maple syrup, ice hockey, beavers, and quebecers
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http://www.whitehouse.gov/ Obama's face is freaking me the fak out. :shaking:
Maybe that's why they want to leave?
Also, I have to wonder how many Barak Ovamas, Obama Braks, Barako Obamos and Brrac Ovams have signed these petitions. Apparently I can add my signature there, even though I am on Canada. :wtf:
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That's a LOT of petitions. 42 petitions presumably representing the citizens of 36 states in favor of possible secession. [/list]
Isn't accurate. Those are 42 petitions representing people from around the world (including all 50 states) who might want 36 states to split from US. Everyone from an Islamic extremist to a Russian troll can sign such a petition.
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Please continue, NGTM-1R...
Please continue to link politicians as if they understand money. The federal government would cause people to flip out if it ran at a profit.
EDIT: In fact, I've got a better idea. Audit the Senate and House committees. That might actually accomplish something and since most of them are composed of rank amateurs at their specialties anyways we'll be able to find auditors.
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Bernanke completely floored the senator there. He was just completely oblivious to what even happened, and apparently many outsider observers were as well. It just went through many people's heads.
PS: Anyone who doesn't understand why banks receive loans of near zero percent rates and credit card people receive loans of (insert how much more) percent rates, should never even be allowed to waste precious time and opportunity to ask actual questions of your Federal Reserve chairman.
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That's a LOT of petitions. 42 petitions presumably representing the citizens of 36 states in favor of possible secession. [/list]
Isn't accurate. Those are 42 petitions representing people from around the world (including all 50 states) who might want 36 states to split from US. Everyone from an Islamic extremist to a Russian troll can sign such a petition.
has an internet petition ever been reliable?
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I have never heard of an Internet petition succeeding at anything of import.
It's too easy to fake signatures on them, so they aren't trustworthy.
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Since this won't get anywhere... How about someone from the US start a Freespace 3 petition? ;7
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(http://www.epforums.org/images/smilies/facepalm.gif) Can't you talk to whoever owns the rights of the franchise?
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holy crap the non-secessionist/secessionist ratio is approaching 5 billion/1 in TExas!! they're gonna do it! they're gonna succeed!
*puts hands up in the air*
*waves those mother****ers like he just doesn't care
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That's a LOT of petitions. 42 petitions presumably representing the citizens of 36 states in favor of possible secession. [/list]
Isn't accurate. Those are 42 petitions representing people from around the world (including all 50 states) who might want 36 states to split from US. Everyone from an Islamic extremist to a Russian troll can sign such a petition.
has an internet petition ever been reliable?
You're correct in that assessment, but those 42 petitions warrant a response according to the White House's policy. Maybe some people signed multiple petitions (nothing stops them from doing so, after all) but, regardless, the administration will need to comment on the topics at hand.
Bernanke completely floored the senator there. He was just completely oblivious to what even happened, and apparently many outsider observers were as well. It just went through many people's heads.
PS: Anyone who doesn't understand why banks receive loans of near zero percent rates and credit card people receive loans of (insert how much more) percent rates, should never even be allowed to waste precious time and opportunity to ask actual questions of your Federal Reserve chairman.
Why put so much faith in Bernanke? He was put in a position of power and, it seems, abused it.
I understand WHY they received the loans, but that doesn't make the loans RIGHT or CORRECT. The real issue, to me, is that many of these loans were made at 0% or 0.25%--and were reinvested in US Treasury bonds at greater rates. Money from nothing, quite literally. It was lent to them by a bank empowered to do so by the US government.
Not all Federal Reserve chairmen are so loose with their programs. Bernanke made a Keynsian mistake that resulted in a tripling of the US monetary supply while attempting to keep inflation near 0%. The two goals are mutually exclusive, of course.
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Well, this thread has fulfilled my laugh quota of the day.
Washington, Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Vermont, Maine, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut are all welcome to join Canada if the southern wackos **** your union up more than they already have, though you'll have to amalgamate and become provinces because we already filled our quota of provinces-that-are-too-godamned-small-and-****-up-parliamentary-democracy (here's looking at you, Maritimes).
Also, anyone who thinks any of said states could economically survive on their own after economic and political secession from the US has been smoking some of that stuff Washington just legalized. Even Texas would see its standard of living absolutely plummet.
EDIT: Oh, and we'll take Alaska too since it should have been ours anyway, but only on the condition that you deport that Palin idiot and her idiot family to whatever southern state got the most signatures on their petition. She's a dealbreaker.
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I though Alaska was Russkie?
At any rate, it being on Canada can only help against my anti-straight World map frontiers OCD.
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I though Alaska was Russkie?
Alaska hasn't been owned by Russia since 1867 - the very same year the Canadian constitution was first signed. You can thank the Brits for the lack of foresight while ignoring the purchasing opportunity. Hence, Alaska (and the panhandle, another British slight, thanks guys) are American territory.
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... become provinces because we already filled our quota of provinces-that-are-too-godamned-small-and-****-up-parliamentary-democracy (here's looking at you, Maritimes).
Coming from NS, I think NB and PEI should just be assimilated into the great ever-expanding Municipality that is Halifax. We can take the State of Maine, too.
Also, Newfoundland doesn't count.
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You're correct in that assessment, but those 42 petitions warrant a response according to the White House's policy. Maybe some people signed multiple petitions (nothing stops them from doing so, after all) but, regardless, the administration will need to comment on the topics at hand.
:doubt: i predict this is going to become more of a lauging stock than a serious issue.
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I though Alaska was Russkie?
Alaska hasn't been owned by Russia since 1867 - the very same year the Canadian constitution was first signed. You can thank the Brits for the lack of foresight while ignoring the purchasing opportunity. Hence, Alaska (and the panhandle, another British slight, thanks guys) are American territory.
i think the main problem is that area is a rather tough bit of terrain to cross (i know, i live there). impenetrable walls of mountains and glaciers everywhere. its understandable why canada never bothered keeping it for themselves. it certainly doesn't keep the moose out though.
say what you want about palin, she was quite an effective governor while she was in office. and effectiveness seems to be a lacking trait in many a candidate these days. i really appreciated the $3k pfd she got us which enabled me to live for 6 months in a state of perpetual drunkenness and debauchery i dont think i will ever live up. but il admit she was a little extreme.
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^^bridge to nowhere: she's one. :P
also i think you're excluding the panhandle. if Canada was that lazy then the 49th parallel would end at Alberta.
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http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/secession-madness-now-40-states-join-petition-fray/
80% of the states in the US now have constituents claiming they want to secede.
lolwat.
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I tell you what, how about the New England states (CT/RI/MA/VT/NH/ME) join Quebec when their secession goes through. Will that work for both sides?
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http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/secession-madness-now-40-states-join-petition-fray/
80% of the states in the US now have constituents claiming they want to secede.
lolwat.
Oh my ****ing god you are an intelligent person. Why are you in any way surprised by this. Why have you failed to employ the most basic statistical reasoning, ****
You would EXPECT these people to be distributed evenly if youi've glanced even once at an electoral map. It would only seem statistically abnormal if they were all in one state. WHY ARE YOU REMOTELY SURPRISED YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SMART. ****
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Is it possible to make a petition to have the Govt. kick the asses of the signers of the secession petitions? You know, not the kind of kick that causes any real physical harm but is still humiliating?
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WHEN (IN THAT POST) DID I SAY I WAS SURPRISED FOR ****'S SAKE
At this point I'm just making fun of these idiots signing the petition.
I'll just not post in this thread anymore. on the forums until finals week is over and my mental coherence re-stabilizes... hopefully. by the way, **** finals
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https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/set-alaska-free/5ZRwL9nC
Anyone who has a whitehouse petition account should sign this one, for the grammarnaziishness, and the preservation of our precious bodily fluids, and also FREEDOM!
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Signatures needed by December 12, 2012 to reach goal of 25,000
23,941
:lol:
The white house will probably need to address a whole bunch of these **** petitions.
It's 22,677 needed now. So it's growing fairly quickly too. :D
12,071 now. 13 hours for ~10500 signs, nice.
- Texas 68K
- Louisiana 28K
- Florida 20K
- Georgia 19K
- Alabama 19K
- Tennessee 19K
- North Carolina 18K
- South Carolina 15K
- Arkansas 14K
- Colorado 14K
- Indiana 13K
- Michigan 13K
- Mississippi 12K
- Kentucky 12K
- Missouri 12K
- Arizona 11K
- New York 11K
- South Carolina 11K (duplicate)
- Oklahoma 11K
- Oregon 10K
- Missouri 10K (duplicate)
- New Jersey 10K
- Montana 10K
- Georgia 9K (duplicate)
- North Dakota 9K
- Pennsylvania 7K
- Nevada 6K
- California 5K
- Ohio 5K
- Delaware 4K
- New York 4K (duplicate)
- Wyoming 4K
- Utah 4K
- Oklahoma 3K (duplicate)
- Alaska 3K
- Kansas 3K
- Pennsylvania 2K (duplicate)
- Nebraska 2K
- Strip possible secessionists of their citizenship 1K
- West Virginia 1K
- Deport possible secessionists 1K
- South Dakota 1K
- Ohio <1K (duplicate)
- Utah <1K (duplicate)
That's a LOT of petitions. 42 petitions presumably representing the citizens of 36 states in favor of possible secession.
Yay, my state isn't on the list of idiots! (yet)
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I always knew Texas would be at the forefront of something stupid like this whenever it rolled around. Things are going far, far, faaaaar too well in this country for secession to be even the least bit remotely thinkable of an option. As has been stated before: this is merely a more obnoxious form of the "I'll move to Canada!" sackless ultimatum, and these attitudes are symptomatic of some very bad political polarization, not sure if causative or not.
Edit- I'd definitely not take this turn of events seriously. It is worth keeping tabs on, however. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in groups, and it's potentially easy to motivate groups of stupid people.
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Oh my ****ing god you are an intelligent person. Why are you in any way surprised by this. Why have you failed to employ the most basic statistical reasoning, ****
You would EXPECT these people to be distributed evenly if youi've glanced even once at an electoral map. It would only seem statistically abnormal if they were all in one state. WHY ARE YOU REMOTELY SURPRISED YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SMART. ****
Calm. The ****. Down.
Yay, my state isn't on the list of idiots! (yet)
I'm actually surprised mine isn't either.
Of course, it seems that no one ever gives a damn what New Mexico thinks about anything anyway. Hell, there are some people in the US who don't even realize we exist!
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There's a....new....Mexico...? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEJzXbqyU8A) :confused:
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amazingly while texas wants out, puerto rico wants in as in become a state from territory. :P
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Of course, it seems that no one ever gives a damn what New Mexico thinks about anything anyway. Hell, there are some people in the US who don't even realize we exist!
i think the federal government fist ****s everyone's state. and needless to say most of the things that need to be canned to fix the economy are federal. so i can see reducing the federal government. of course people dont want ideas that make sense, they want it there way or on fire (my way or on fire isn't much different)
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As has been stated before: this is merely a more obnoxious form of the "I'll move to Canada!" sackless ultimatum, and these attitudes are symptomatic of some very bad political polarization, not sure if causative or not.
There was an image doing the rounds before the US election of people threatening to move down here to Australia if Obama won, just to shake up the equation, I guess. Those conservatives would love it here, with our female, atheist prime minister, plummeting church attendance and publicly funded health-care. :D
As for the actual topic, it remains weakly lol-worthy at best. I look forward to many more similarly toothless petitions every time you lot elect someone who's not a complete parody of a politician. :D
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It's kind of funny to see a bunch of self proclaimed US patriots jumping at the first perceived chance to break it in half :) (assuming that people voting for this are mostly in the far right camp).
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Bernanke completely floored the senator there. He was just completely oblivious to what even happened, and apparently many outsider observers were as well. It just went through many people's heads.
PS: Anyone who doesn't understand why banks receive loans of near zero percent rates and credit card people receive loans of (insert how much more) percent rates, should never even be allowed to waste precious time and opportunity to ask actual questions of your Federal Reserve chairman.
Why put so much faith in Bernanke? He was put in a position of power and, it seems, abused it.
I understand WHY they received the loans, but that doesn't make the loans RIGHT or CORRECT. The real issue, to me, is that many of these loans were made at 0% or 0.25%--and were reinvested in US Treasury bonds at greater rates. Money from nothing, quite literally. It was lent to them by a bank empowered to do so by the US government.
Not all Federal Reserve chairmen are so loose with their programs. Bernanke made a Keynsian mistake that resulted in a tripling of the US monetary supply while attempting to keep inflation near 0%. The two goals are mutually exclusive, of course.
You'd better spend your time in places where you can actually learn real macroeconomics, rather than listening to the ludicrous voices of the monetarists or their proxies like Ron Paul and other ridiculous men. The real kicker in your comment is the last paragraph, where you state that the two goals (tripling monetary supply and keeping inflation near 0%) are "mutually exclusive" as if those ideas had anything to do with what has been happening. But for a funny retort, I'd just remind you that the current inflation is below 2%. Where is the hyper inflation monetarists have been banging about for almost a decade now?
No, the real problem we face under a depression is deflation. And under the threat of deflation, you go loose in your money supply. This is not "Keynesianism". This is straight ****ing Milton Friedman basic macroeconomics 101. Bernanke comes from a background of having studied Friedman's ideas about the Great Depression, and, if anything, has been rather conservative and too cautious about the loosening of money supply.
I am no fan of Bernanke, but these ridiculous pseudo-bull****s that spread around the nets about the role of central banks and issues about currencies and so on really piss me off. Because they aren't marginal. As we have seen in that video, it's somehow managed to become "common knowledge" that senators really believe has a grain of truth. It's pure unadulterated really *dumb* bull**** instead.
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Are people actually taking these petitions seriously?
They don't represent the populace of these states at all (people from outside of the related state can sign it) and this is just a load of buttpained conservatives whining in defeat. Nothing will happen, and there really isn't a whole lot to discuss. The WORST I could see are a few worthless militias trying to form, and then getting curbstomped by their state's own national guard units/police the moment they start trying to "rise up" against the "oppressor."
I mean, how often does New Hampshire threaten to secede? Then what happens when they realize giving up that Federal money reserve would bankrupt them the instant they left?
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... the wider the gap between the parties the more political energy ends up getting wasted on tug of war politics, and less goes to actually solving problems...
... All of this energy and potential for communication and potential for actual WORK getting done is getting wasted on bile and vitriol going back and forth between adherents of both dominant political parties...
Just as planned.
It's hard to maintain status quo and ensure your place in the ruling class if the people are aware of real problems and banding together to fix them.
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According to the list of signatures that Bob-san posted on the 13th, and assuming that every signature is an individual, the total number of people in favor of secession is only slightly more than half the population of Austin, Texas. (454000 vs 820611 as of July 2011)
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https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/outlaw-offending-prophets-major-religions/94kL1tsN
**** free speech man!
This petitions can be so silly.
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https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/outlaw-offending-prophets-major-religions/94kL1tsN
**** free speech man!
This petitions can be so silly.
i take my right to blaspheme prophets, their gods, and the religions built around them very seriously. You take that away and i might have to jump in with the secessionists.
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According to the list of signatures that Bob-san posted on the 13th, and assuming that every signature is an individual, the total number of people in favor of secession is only slightly more than half the population of Austin, Texas. (454000 vs 820611 as of July 2011)
Maybe you can let them seperate Austin into East and West Austin and let the secessionists build some kind of wall around themselves? ;)
Ok bad pun...
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Not necessarily a bad idea though. Might be easier than building a dedicated asylum for all of them.
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At least you'll increase your exports...
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(http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/295881_554598034569654_1609123923_n.jpg)
I found it funny
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Sums up the intelligence of an average secessionist. :)
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as Bush has proven ages ago, dem secdeeneshists don't know nuthin' bout edjucashun :P
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Yuezhi, I got an actual headache reading that sentence, how the fork did you do it?
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To be fair, they are obviously still shuffling the cards to their rightful place. The camera man was just taking the opportunity to be a sleazy bastard lolzer.
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/me is hugely tempted to add a petition for the reintroduction of slavery just to see how many votes that gets. :p
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You should do one for each race / sex. I'd be curious to see which ones get more votes.
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Well it's just that the White House Petitions lack a control petition. Perhaps there are people who will sign anything no matter how stupid.
I remember seeing a clip once of how The Man Show managed to get a bunch of people to sign a petition ending women's suffrage. Although to be fair their wording was pretty good and when asked why people should sign, they just said things like "We feel that too many women have suffrage, this should be stopped." They did show the footage of the one outraged woman who cottoned on to what people were actually being asked to sign.
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To be fair, considering what kind of politicians we have, I'd say too many men have suffrage, too. :) But then, I'm not too fond of democracy in general.
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As usual, a website mainly devoted to dick-jokes has a better handle on this (http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/why-E28098anti-obama-states-secede21E28099-story-lie/?wa_user1=1&wa_user2=News&wa_user3=quickfix&wa_user4=feature_module) than the mainstream press.
On the other hand, that last petition sounds cool.
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It seems that Texas at least has a solid legal basis for seceding.
From the Texas State Constitution (found here (http://www.constitution.legis.state.tx.us/))
Sec. 1. FREEDOM AND SOVEREIGNTY OF STATE. Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and the maintenance of our free institutions and the perpetuity of the Union depend upon the preservation of the right of local self-government, unimpaired to all the States.
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It seems that Texas at least has a solid legal basis for seceding.
From the Texas State Constitution (found here (http://www.constitution.legis.state.tx.us/))
Sec. 1. FREEDOM AND SOVEREIGNTY OF STATE. Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and the maintenance of our free institutions and the perpetuity of the Union depend upon the preservation of the right of local self-government, unimpaired to all the States.
I must be missing something because that is not a solid legal basis for secession at all.
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Yeah, the whole thing about Texas having the right to secede at will is a myth.
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And what, if anything, does the constitution say about secession?
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Considering that we aren't really following the constitution at this point, what is there keeping us together?
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An inability to understand Canadian money or how to cook Mexican food. :p
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And what, if anything, does the constitution say about secession?
The Constitution does not specifically say one way or another, but the prevailing view has always been that it is not permitted. The Founding Fathers had a huge debate on the subject but eventually decided that in order for the Federal government to have any kind of actual power, the States could not just leave any time they happened to disagree. It was believed that any major controversy could cause the States to "go the way of Europe" and become a bunch of small countries and have constant petty wars.
In any case, the 1868 Supreme Court (the guys whose job it is to decide what is or is not "Constitutional") ruled that it is illegal for a State to secede from the Union, which has held up ever since.
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Considering that we aren't really following the constitution at this point, what is there keeping us together?
Remind me again where we are in conflict with the constitution, and why the Supreme Court isn't making a stink about it? (e: or maybe they are and I'm just not paying attention, preferectly possible)
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Considering that we aren't really following the constitution at this point, what is there keeping us together?
Remind me again where we are in conflict with the constitution, and why the Supreme Court isn't making a stink about it? (e: or maybe they are and I'm just not paying attention, preferectly possible)
Most people point to things like a standing army, grotesque invasions of privacy, and obamacare as violations of the constitution. I only see my second mention as being a real issue. The SCOTUS doesn't seem to care right now.
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next time somone starts a new government, make damn sure theres a thing in the constitution for removing cumulative bull**** from the law books. where every new law has an expiration date and has to be reviewed and voted on at regular intervals. if the current situation of endless lobbying would continue under that policy, politicians would be so overworked they would can every bs law just so they can get 5 hours of sleep a night.
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next time somone starts a new government, make damn sure theres a thing in the constitution for removing cumulative bull**** from the law books. where every new law has an expiration date and has to be reviewed and voted on at regular intervals. if the current situation of endless lobbying would continue under that policy, politicians would be so overworked they would can every bs law just so they can get 5 hours of sleep a night.
I think most laws already have an expiration date and need to be reinstated (eg AWB from 1994). Stuff like the NDAA also expires and just gets re-passed whenever it needs to be so it's not like they're just permanent power grabs. Plus it's not like you can't amend the constitution for permanent things, and it's not like you can't re-amend the constitution to repeal those laws. But yeah, there's definitely got to be laws that don't expire I think, but those are probably the ones that don't really make a huge difference when it comes to anything.
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Considering that we aren't really following the constitution at this point, what is there keeping us together?
Remind me again where we are in conflict with the constitution, and why the Supreme Court isn't making a stink about it? (e: or maybe they are and I'm just not paying attention, preferectly possible)
I was thinking of the retroactive immunity given to telcoms and the Patriot Act, but I assumed there was a lot of stuff. It's my opinion that a large portion of the supreme court justices are a bit to partisan to make decisions based on how well they're supported by the constitution atm.
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Ben Swann Explains Things (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fegDJuLqo0&feature=g-all-u)
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I am not among those who fear the people. They, and not the rich, are our dependence for continued freedom. And to preserve their independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude... This example reads to us the salutary lesson, that private fortunes are destroyed by public as well as by private extravagance. And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of the society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery, and to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering. Then begins, indeed, the bellum omnium in omnia, which some philosophers observing to be so general in this world, have mistaken it for the natural, instead of the abusive state of man. And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.
I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors. It is this preposterous idea which has lately deluged Europe in blood... Let us follow no such examples, nor weakly believe that one generation is not as capable as another of taking care of itself, and of ordering its own affairs. Let us, as our sister States have done, avail ourselves of our reason and experience, to correct the crude essays of our first and unexperienced, although wise, virtuous, and well-meaning councils. And lastly, let us provide in our constitution for its revision at stated periods. What these periods should be, nature herself indicates.
Thomas Jefferson. He knew ****. If you want to read the whole letter he wrote, you can do so here: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=459
It's fascinating how much of what he had to say then applies to our corrupt government today.
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Jefferson was one of the worst early presidents the United States had, managing the ongoing struggles in Europe and the US' effort to stay out of them so poorly that he almost caused a civil war. His emphasis on agrarian self-sufficiency means his rhetoric has little to do with, and nothing but contempt for, any of us posting here, much less our society.
Cite not to me a man who would refuse to try to understand modernity, as if he was the solution to its problems.
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Hey guys, how about when I become overlord of the Empire of FireSpawn (formerly Great Britain), i come over there and take those pesky upstart states? It would free up congress from all the bull****. And depending on how talks with Canada go regarding absorbing them into my
dark empire benevolent nation, you may just end up with a lucrative trade agreement from both sides. :D
But in all seriousness, I do find the whole thing rather humorous. Despite how large the numbers seem and realising that they are piss in the ocean, thanks to you guys I can sort of see the kind of issues it might create a foothold for. So just in case, all you guys should start building your bomb shelters just in case Nuke heads a takeover in the MadMax-esque times that may follow, and gets a hold of the nuclear arsenal.
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Jefferson was one of the worst early presidents the United States had, managing the ongoing struggles in Europe and the US' effort to stay out of them so poorly that he almost caused a civil war. His emphasis on agrarian self-sufficiency means his rhetoric has little to do with, and nothing but contempt for, any of us posting here, much less our society.
Cite not to me a man who would refuse to try to understand modernity, as if he was the solution to its problems.
I guess I just don't understand your point. Jefferson points out that governments tend to get too big and overspend (sounds familiar), then it essentially enslaves the people with that debt in the form of taxation, and eventually, austerity. It knows it's too big, but it will do anything to keep itself around for as long as possible.
On top of that, our government borrows its money from a private company (The Federal Reserve is not any kind of government organization and it functions with zero accountability, transparency, or responsibility), and it has plotted not just to steal our money, but our freedom (NDAA, Patriot Act). It colludes with banks, corporations, and the media to keep itself in power, regardless which party is at the helm (as long as it's not a third party; Gary Johnson got maybe 3 minutes of air time in all of the 24/hr election coverage that we had to put up with all year). It's trying to take control of the internet in our country (PIPA, SOPA, Sen. Patrick Leahy's "E-mail Privacy" Bill) so people won't find out what they're actually doing. How far do we let it go? Taxes will go up and eventually programs will get cut (already happening in Greece, Spain, Portugal, I'm going to assume due to corruption and extremely poor stewardship/theft of tax dollars) just to maintain the status quo which will get progressively worse, because our government sold us out to the Fed, the richest private company on the planet that no one has ever heard of.
Your trust in the US government mystifies me. Those who really believe all that **** I just listed is really "in our best interests" or just don't care completely floor me. They're taking our freedom, liberty, and money little by little, and they are not going to stop any time soon. The sooner we do something about it, the better off we'll be... but instead we're going to buy into the lies of either party, or just not give a ****, or argue about everything in between because we're exactly the kind of Americans they need us to be: ones who won't stand up for freedom, liberty, and a better life.
I don't care if Thomas Jefferson is one of the worst early presidents or not, it sure looks like he was right about what our government has become now.
Am I crazy? Or ignorant? Confused? What gives? I don't understand why more people aren't fired up by gradually losing their freedom.
/me shrugs.
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I don't think the deficit is a particular problem - it's the deficit's size compared to the economy as a whole that I think we need to be worried about from a macroeconomic perspective. As long as one grows in tune with the other it should be okay.
We seem to have been better off with the Fed than without it so far. Economic volatility was absolutely brutal back in the day.
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Idk what NGTM-1R's problem is
Jefferson FTW
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All this "big government is teh evulz" talk is funny. I know, I know, cultural differences and stuff, but still.
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Am I crazy? Or ignorant? Confused? What gives? I don't understand why more people aren't fired up by gradually losing their freedom.
Just ignorant, methinks. While "morally" Hayek has always been right in pointing out the dangers of too much government overreach, current internet gibberishtalking mistakes it for an actual economic argument. A proper education on macroeconomics could cure you from your RonPauliititis, so I advise you to begin.
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Please explain to me how the NDAA is a good thing. Or drone strikes that kill innocent people and only create new enemies. Or the war on drugs that puts 900,000 small time pot offenders in jail instead of working and paying taxes. On just those few points alone, I think I'll stick to my RonPaulitis. Also, Luis, do you even live in the US? Perhaps things look different from the outside.
All this "big government is teh evulz" talk is funny. I know, I know, cultural differences and stuff, but still.
Big government isn't evil, corruption is.
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All this "big government is teh evulz" talk is funny. I know, I know, cultural differences and stuff, but still.
They're Americans. One whiff of anything that looks remotely socialized (for individuals; socialized corporate assistance they seem to be good with) and they're resurrecting McCarthy and finding Russian-speaking Communists under and in every piece of furniture in the house. =D
*runs*
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<3 socialism/communism
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^ theres one, get 'em! :D
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^ theres one, get 'em! :D
That quotation from Dr. Strangelove in your signature is particularly funny today =)
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Why not just nuke him from orbit? That's the only way we'll be sure he can't escape!
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Please explain to me how the NDAA is a good thing. Or drone strikes that kill innocent people and only create new enemies. Or the war on drugs that puts 900,000 small time pot offenders in jail instead of working and paying taxes. On just those few points alone, I think I'll stick to my RonPaulitis. Also, Luis, do you even live in the US? Perhaps things look different from the outside.
NDAA is the defense budget, isn't it? What's so wrong with it? The "war on drugs" is the silliest thing ever, I couldn't agree more, but the drone strikes I also fail to see why are they so wrong. Just because there is "apparently" no person shooting the weapon, it doesn't mean it is not. And it also does not mean it is so vehemently different than any other military weapon in existence. So if you are not a pacifist, I see no logical argument for such hatred against "drones" (as they exist nowadays).
The RonPaulitis stuff is more dangerous in the economic field, where the rants against the FED, the deficit, the "go back to the gold standard" (omg), the argument that charity can and should substitute every single "socialist" policy (like say healthcare for the poor should not be given by the government but by "charitable" rich people), etc., etc. And it is dangerous because it sells under the banner of "Freedom", in a not unlike an Orwellian manner.
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NDAA says that even American citizens can be detained and held indefinitely without charge. Everything is wrong with it. It's a huge violation of our Constitutional rights, even more so than the Patriot Act.
I'm certainly no pacifist, but drone strikes aren't just killing enemy militants, they're killing innocent people, including women and children. Granted, it's not full on genocide or anything, but even one civilian death should be avoided at all costs, and scrutinized greatly when it does happen (IMHO). We have hundreds of civilian deaths on our hands. We're the terrorists now, and when we kill someone with a drone, their family and friends hate America and tell everyone they know why they hate America and now suddenly a lot more people hate America. It's terribad foreign policy. Not sure how to be more logical than that.
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So if you are not a pacifist, I see no logical argument for such hatred against "drones" (as they exist nowadays).
Well, you could argue that drones take jobs away from real pilots and give them to kids with remote controls. More than a few USAF pilots argue along those lines (and I think you could guess which side I'm on :)). Fighter pilots having beef with UAV controllers isn't just a stereotype. That's about the best argument against the drones though (but still a darn good one). As for civilian causalities of drone attacks, a lot of effort goes into keeping them to a minimum. Say what you will about UAV controllers, the decision to pull the trigger is never taken lightly. IIRC, each individual drone attack requires an authorization from White House.
As for War On Drugs, they should legalize them, and put quality control and taxes on them. Drug lords would either go out of business or start doing legal drug trade after a while, just look at what happened to alcohol smugglers after The Prohibition ended. Considering some drugs are less harmful than alcohol, I'd consider it a sound move. Why should people be allowed to poison themselves with tobacco and alcohol, and not, say, marijuana. Aside from historical precedent, I don't see any reason. Right now, anti-drug laws put harmless people in jail, let drug lords prosper and weight down budget. If drugs were legalized, trading in them would start contributing to budget instead.
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collateral damage is inevitable in war. expecting it not to happen is delusional at best.
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collateral damage is inevitable in war. expecting it not to happen is delusional at best.
So when did Congress declare war again?
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america is always at war.
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So when did Congress declare war again?
I'm sure Pearl Harbor wasn't the result of a war, after all no war was declared!
This is easily the most facetious argument you could have made against it.
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collateral damage is inevitable in war. expecting it not to happen is delusional at best.
So when did Congress declare war again?
We have always been at war with Eurasia Eastasia.
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This is rather relevant on the subject (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S92fTz_-kQE&feature=g-u).
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On the subject of drones, all other things aside - Isn't it better to have drones than to have actual attack aircraft in the skies? Even with their sniper pods and all that stuff, they fly at incredible speeds and don't have the overview that would naturally come from flying a slower and more maneuverable aircraft like a drone. Without the drones, they wouldn't be able to strike as often and precisely, and given the overview thingy, I think civilian deaths would be even higher per strike.
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On the subject of drones, all other things aside - Isn't it better to have drones than to have actual attack aircraft in the skies? Even with their sniper pods and all that stuff, they fly at incredible speeds and don't have the overview that would naturally come from flying a slower and more maneuverable aircraft like a drone. Without the drones, they wouldn't be able to strike as often and precisely, and given the overview thingy, I think civilian deaths would be even higher per strike.
:facepalm:
The thing about drone operations is that using one in support of ground troops is quite reasonable. After all, eyes in the sky can make a bit of difference, as can something that can engage targets without giving away the troop's position.
But.
If all you have are drones, if the only way to do target identification/verification is through a drone's onboard systems, the risk of killing innocents is much increased, especially considering that piloting a drone removes many of the inhibitions most people, soldiers included, have when being asked to kill people.
Armed Drones are a weapons system that has to be used responsibly. Blowing up things without being able to make a good confirmation of the attacks' effectiveness is not a good habit to get into.
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Just to say that I found the argument "save the pilots' jobs" against drones hilarious. A+ in comedy gold man.
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:facepalm:
If all you have are drones, if the only way to do target identification/verification is through a drone's onboard systems, the risk of killing innocents is much increased, especially considering that piloting a drone removes many of the inhibitions most people, soldiers included, have when being asked to kill people.
Armed Drones are a weapons system that has to be used responsibly. Blowing up things without being able to make a good confirmation of the attacks' effectiveness is not a good habit to get into.
Is the facepalm really necessary? I don't disagree by the way.
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on the other hand drones can be hacked, pilots cant. at least not yet. the reason we've gotten away with using drones so far is that we have only been fighting technologically inferior foes. go up against the russians or even china, you will see the effectiveness of drones drop greatly. because they would just establish a hacker corps to break into drones and either crash them or turn em around on us.
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on the other hand drones can be hacked, pilots cant. at least not yet. the reason we've gotten away with using drones so far is that we have only been fighting technologically inferior foes. go up against the russians or even china, you will see the effectiveness of drones drop greatly. because they would just establish a hacker corps to break into drones and either crash them or turn em around on us.
Isn't that what Iran has been doing to the drones that have veered into their territory a couple times? One has to wonder how the heck one would pull that off.
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Just to say that I found the argument "save the pilots' jobs" against drones hilarious. A+ in comedy gold man.
Want more of that? Check Air Force Blues (http://farvatoons.com/). The best strips regarding the drones aren't on this site (you can find them on this one (http://www.afblues.com/wordpress/)), but it's all this kind of comedy.
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on the other hand drones can be hacked, pilots cant. at least not yet. the reason we've gotten away with using drones so far is that we have only been fighting technologically inferior foes. go up against the russians or even china, you will see the effectiveness of drones drop greatly. because they would just establish a hacker corps to break into drones and either crash them or turn em around on us.
Black Ops 2 scenario
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So uh... on topic... some of the petitions got the necessary number of signers to force Obama (or the executive department) to make a response, right? So what was the response? Or are they procrastinating on that?
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Petitions that acquire the necessary number of signatures get on a queue for review by the White House.
That queue is fairly long.
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And one can assume is handled by an unpaid intern. :p
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I thought they did away with unpaid interns back in '96...
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I think you're mistaking Clinton's comment that he'd found a new position for them. :p
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I think you're mistaking Clinton's comment that he'd found a new position for them. :p
I'm not sure. Clinton must have been a tough boss, for sure. I've heard rumors about those poor interns having to lay on their knees to pass the internship. :lol:
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Ugh. You guys
suck. dammit you guys!
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Ugh. You guys suck. dammit you guys!
What'd we do? :confused:
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Bunch of dudes chatting on the internet, it was bound to happen sooner or later.
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President Clitnon had an affair with a secretary that pretty much destroyed his career as President of the USians. This has become a common joke on the Internet with many hidden innuendos.
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Ugh, you guys ruined the joke (though I won't go as far as saying that you blew it :lol:). Anyway, moving on.
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One guy makes a funny joke, everyone else jumps on board and runs it into the ****ing ground. It's like I'm really reading a reddit thread!
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This thread fulfilled it's mission long ago, all that is left for it is a humiliating and painful death. Or an Admin lock! :P
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I wonder if anyone will remember those petitions after White House gets to them. The line is quite long, so it might take some time. It'd be funny if by that time, next elections rolled around and a Republican president was elected.