Author Topic: Politics... again  (Read 8494 times)

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Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80:
However... an importatn part of solving the entire Palestinian-Israel problem will be dismantling the Jewish settlements.
I know you wont like that idea Sandwich, but rest assured it will have to happen if Isreal and Palestine want to have any chance for a lasting peace.

You're right, as far as that goes. But personally, I heavily doubt that anything short of pushing us back into the sea will appease the Islamic world. :-/



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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Shrike

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Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
As the world has seen recently, terrorism is very broad. On one end you have the occasional Molotov cocktail thrown at a military emplacement and causing no damage. On the other extreme you have the WTC attacks. Both are terrorism, but they have extremely different results.

So, now that we both agree that terrorism is broad, what were we disagreeing about?      

Good question.  We started off in agreement, then disagreed, then agreed again.  
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Offline Anduril

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Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
I heavily doubt that anything short of pushing us back into the sea will appease the Islamic world. :-/

I fear you're right.

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
You're right, as far as that goes. But personally, I heavily doubt that anything short of pushing us back into the sea will appease the Islamic world. :-/


and the Islamic world will have to accept that this is not going to happen.
in fact, what i aid earlier was part of a statement by someone. There were two other parts to it:
-giving up the settlements
-finding a solution for those (the Palestinians) that want to go home (back into Israel)
-and finding a way to make Jerusalem the capital of both Israel and Palestine

well... I can only say one thing about that: it will take a long time to get that done.
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Offline Kellan

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You'd think that with 1000+ years to think things over both sides would have come to some bitter conclusions about co-existing and compromise, but every year both Israelis and Palestinians seem to get more uncompromising (not meant by way of offence, sandwich).

I think we can all agree that Israel has a right to be there as the Jewish homeland that was lacking for so long. Few people would begrudge the defence of borders that the West imposed anyway. I think the key thing is the whole settlement issue, to be honest.

Removing them may be a solution to the problem, for the moment (until all the hate-rhetoric fades into the past), but if the Arab world wants Israel erased they will have to cope with the fact that this will not happen.

Oh, and personally, I think that Jerusalem should be an international city, like Vatican City. By removing it from the control of both sides equally, at least for the moment (see Berlin, 1945-1990), even if that means U.N protectorate you might remove a lot of the extremism. Well, you know, I'm an optimist, I live in hope.  

--Kellan

 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80:
However... an importatn part of solving the entire Palestinian-Israel problem will be dismantling the Jewish settlements.
B]

Are you NUTS?!?
If you've ever seen a releif map of the area you've got to realise that if Isreal loses the Gaza strip on Sunday, then they'll be overrun by Monday!

The area called the Gaza strip includes a long, elevated ridgeline that overlooks the narrowest portion of Isreal.  With Artillery and AA batteries on that ridgeline they could easily cut the country in half.  

It's also a prime spot to launch an invasion from (as was done during the so-called 7-day war) because of it's elevated postion.  If the prime minister has any sense at all there's NO WAY he's going to relinquish that area...
I told you that It would be done by November, well, mostly anyway...

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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Quote
Originally posted by jonskowitz:
Are you NUTS?!?
If you've ever seen a releif map of the area you've got to realise that if Isreal loses the Gaza strip on Sunday, then they'll be overrun by Monday!

The area called the Gaza strip includes a long, elevated ridgeline that overlooks the narrowest portion of Isreal.  With Artillery and AA batteries on that ridgeline they could easily cut the country in half.  

It's also a prime spot to launch an invasion from (as was done during the so-called 7-day war) because of it's elevated postion.  If the prime minister has any sense at all there's NO WAY he's going to relinquish that area...

no, i'm being a realist.
Millions of people are pressed in a small area while the settlers live on large (in comparison) plots of land in that same area.
If you want peace, the settlements will have to go... or some nutter will someday remove them with force  

And to Kellan: The Vatican is NOT an international city, it is an independant country of its own (the last remant of what were once the Papal States. Disbanded in 1891 -I think- and reinstated by Mussolini in 1929 -again i'm not sure)
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Offline Stryke 9

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Seeing how nobody answered your request, sandvich...

But anyway. Certainly, there are some extremists who will not rest until the West is dead, and there is a roughly equal proportion here who wishes to make a Middle East-sized crater in the planet, but such is humanity- the intolerant slimeball bigots are always the most vocal, though they hardly make up a percentage in the population. Let's be fair here, and maybe we WON'T have everybody hate us- and let's find a good solution with the rest before this outspoken minority becomes an acting majority, and we all end up... well... dead.

 

Offline joek

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Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80:
and the Islamic world will have to accept that this is not going to happen.
in fact, what i aid earlier was part of a statement by someone. There were two other parts to it:
-giving up the settlements
-finding a solution for those (the Palestinians) that want to go home (back into Israel)
-and finding a way to make Jerusalem the capital of both Israel and Palestine

well... I can only say one thing about that: it will take a long time to get that done.

Playing Devil's Advocate...
Maybe they need a Berlin Wall.

Joe.
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Offline Martinus

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Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9:
Note that the Northern Irish mobs are not included in this- throwing bombs at a specific group of women and children as "protest" against another terrorist group who has little or nothing to do with the children is even worse, if it's possible to act worse.

I'm usually pretty eloquent when posting but I'm going to make an exception (hopefully) just this once and say this ****  is pretty ******  up!! These people don't throw bombs at kids in protestation of a paramilitary enemy, they're protecting their (god given apparantley) right to sell drugs, ripped off software and stolen goods. They don't truely give the slightest damn if the IRA gives up it's cause, they need the strife in order to get richer.

Someone once told me that we should drop all of the loyalists on one side of a small island, drop the nationalists on the other, give them each a crate of guns and let them fight it out. Anyone who knows their true motives would realise that the bastards would just team up and start offshore weapons trading. Money is the one true 'cause', a united Ireland or a united Britan is merely a secondary thought.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by joek:
Playing Devil's Advocate...
Maybe they need a Berlin Wall.

Joe.

Funny you should mention that...

 
Quote
Originally posted by Maeglamor:
I'm usually pretty eloquent when posting but I'm going to make an exception (hopefully) just this once and say this ****  is pretty ******  up!! These people don't throw bombs at kids in protestation of a paramilitary enemy, they're protecting their (god given apparantley) right to sell drugs, ripped off software and stolen goods. They don't truely give the slightest damn if the IRA gives up it's cause, they need the strife in order to get richer.

Someone once told me that we should drop all of the loyalists on one side of a small island, drop the nationalists on the other, give them each a crate of guns and let them fight it out. Anyone who knows their true motives would realise that the bastards would just team up and start offshore weapons trading. Money is the one true 'cause', a united Ireland or a united Britan is merely a secondary thought.

Speaking of Ireland...


------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 09-26-2001).]
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Shrike

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I can't help but think that it would be a disaster as to getting world support on Isreal's side..... Whether or not a wall will work, it looks really bad.  Plus, it still doesn't help the rest of the country.

Edit:  And don't ask me for any better ideas, because I sure as hell don't have any.

[This message has been edited by Shrike (edited 09-26-2001).]
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Stryke 9

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There ARE no good ideas. As long as Israel is there, it will be despised by the Arab nations as a symbol of US meddling (which WAS bad...), and the evil of other cultures (which is just stupid). However, Israel is unusually tough for a small country, and shows no signs of getting wiped except possibly by a concerted effort of the whole Middle East, and then only if Israel had no international aid. Until such an unlikely situation arises, the bloody stalemate will continue.

The problem with the entire area there is it's so damn entrenched. Most of the countries there have been more or less at war since the Middle ages, and have thus become not only EXTREMELY good at repelling invaders, but also very militant (and for a kicker, few have had time between wars to develop their culture beyond mediaeval level). Which means that although they can generally do little or nothing to us (notice how few bombings Bin Laden is actually responsible for, and how hardly any person, group, or country has been nearly so destructive...), when they do pull something off, it would take a miracle to get the perpetrator or win a war. Even with the rest of the Middle Eastern nations giving us free reign, it's like kicking a wall- and it's not like the Afghans in particular haven't turned back greater threats than us, with our desire to keep up appearances and unwillingness to send hundreds of thousands of people to their deaths just to prove a point. These were the very guys who kicked the Soviets' asses, when they had little more than light rifles, fanaticism, and us cheering on the sidelines. What I don't get is why we can't just cut off all access into Afghanistan, letting refugees out (after checking their stuff for anything that could conceivably blow up), and nothing at all in- they're a landlocked country, the Taliban wouldn't last a month, particularly now that they're geared for war, not seige.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9:
There ARE no good ideas. As long as Israel is there, it will be despised by the Arab nations as a symbol of US meddling (which WAS bad...), and the evil of other cultures (which is just stupid). However, Israel is unusually tough for a small country, and shows no signs of getting wiped except possibly by a concerted effort of the whole Middle East, and then only if Israel had no international aid. Until such an unlikely situation arises, the bloody stalemate will continue.

The very existance of the Jewish State, and the fact of Israel's survival of all the wars against her, is no less then blaphsemy to Allah. Think about that one...

And even if all the Arab nations group against us, we still are the only nuclear power in the area. Worst comes to worst, we would use it to maintain our survival.


------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

  

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
The very existance of the Jewish State, and the fact of Israel's survival of all the wars against her, is no less then blaphsemy to Allah. Think about that one...


Even if He existed and you could ask him, I bet he would say that he actually doesn't give a s***
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