[diamondgeezer]

It has been done. Bacteria and viruses (virii?) are exposed to destructive stimuli, such as antibodies, and if by some freak chance some of the organisms have the characteristics required to survive, they do so, and replace the previous 'versions'. Thus, the bacteria or virus has evolved to better cope with its environment. This is why doctors are so terrified of 'super bugs' getting a grip in hospitals - we've spent so long using a limited number of inoculents that sooner or later a disease resistant to all our medical sicence is bound to evolve.

[CP5670]

Contingently necessary scientific laws, eh? I say your wise to leave it at that. No one has ever suceeded in making an argument for necessary scientific laws, at least not that I know of. And lacking one, miracles do remain a logical possibility.

Like I said, I'm not sure of that, but there is a significant amount of evidence pointing in that direction. But there is also evidence pointing in the opposite direction. We will see what it comes to.

How then do you propose to have science deal with the supernatural? I'd be interested to see that. In the meantime, that is all that science deals with. Those who say science is trying to deal with everything are either 1) no bothering to make explicit that they mean everything in the natural realm, or 2) are assuming that there is no supernatural andthus the natural is all there is, which is not a scientific assumption, but a religious one.

Exactly the same way that it deals with the natural. Since by your definition, anything that exists but is not matter and energy interacting in space and time is supernatural, physics is working on and understanding the supernatural world even today. There is really no point in making this ridiculous distinction between "natural" and "supernatural;" if they both exist, that's all we care about here. This is like saying that mathematics is only allowed to deal with prime numbers and not the rest of the numbers.

Making descriptions of how natural objects usually behave (that is, without any outside interference) is great, but the set of natural objects is one thing, and the set of everything is another. There is no reason to assume the laws (i.e. patterns of behaviour) that govern natural objects apply to that which is not natural.

Ah. But that accomplishes little. As said, a creation from nothing does not need to change the patterns of behaviour of natural (in my sense) objects, it just adds another element into the mix. The patterns of behaviour of natural objects (in my sense) do not tell us anything about the supernatural (not scientifically, anyway), since the supernatural is a whole other thing.

I never said they did. All I am saying is that patterns exist that fully determine the behavior of everything, including the supernatural. I am not saying anything about god being inconsistent with science because he does not obey our known science laws of today, but rather that god is inconsistent because he does not obey laws period. This has nothing to do with local laws and such.

[Warlock]

Something to think about :

Ever wonder why humankind's one driving goal above all else in history is understanding and knowledge ? By nature we (as a whole not as individuals) have to understand everything. That alone is why there will NEVER be a time when EVERYone believes in the '"insert worshiped entity here" just made it so' theory.

If not for science none of us would be having this discussion right now.

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by HotSnoJ
He said, "Let there be (fill in here)" And it happend. There is my answer.

explain how the "and it happend" part works,
more over explain how that is linked to god saying "let there be",
this is a perfict example of people useing relgion as a replacment for thinking

If it's so simple then how come it has been done yet in a lab?

well, if you just want a lab growen one look here
5 seconds + google =
note that article is over a decade old, so this isn't exactly cutting edge

[IceFire]

True that Warlock.

Despite many negative attributes, humans do have the noble aspiration of seeking more and more knowledge (and that could be both religious knowledge and scientific knowledge) both individually and in groups.  On the whole, it seems that we want to understand everything...one way or another.

I don't get this "natural" VS "supernatural" thing at all.  Are we saying that if our current laws of science don't explain something that its not natural?

I am always drawn to information about strange events.  Ghost sightings, ball lightning, UFO sightings, crop circles....sure lots of this stuff is fake and contrived....but some of it isn't.  I think it comes down to one simple fact, there is plenty of mystery left in the universe for us to solve...I think that our current understanding of how the universe works and how our own world is like an iceberg.  We can experience and understand perhaps a small fraction of the whole.  Thats of room...for many many other elements that we have not yet considered....or may never consider.

[Warlock]

Yup. of things taken currently as supernatural/mythical.etc later turn out to just be normal everyday things not clearly understood at first.

Panda,........funny cute looking bear right ? It was a myth until what 50 years ago (not sure on the time it was finally discovered) and now any zoo with 4 nickles has one.

Man are you guys ever gonna freak when you find out that it was really an alien culture that placed life here on Earth as a science fair exhibit!  :LOL:




What ? I was kidding

[Zeronet]

People dont fake crop circles, they just do them. You cant fake something humans did and that other people placed a label on.

[diamondgeezer]

Originally posted by HotSnoJ
He said, "Let there be (fill in here)" And it happend. There is my answer

Bobboau's quite right. This is a rather lame argument, Snoj. My christian house mate says this (as I have mentioned before) whenever we get discussing religion. Annoys the hell out of me

Originally posted by Warlock
Man are you guys ever gonna freak when you find out that it was really an alien culture that placed life here on Earth as a science fair exhibit!

See, the sad thing is, is that I believe this to be quite likely. Frankly, if Snoj and his lot can believe in the invisible beardy dude in the sky, I can believe in aliens kick starting the evolution of our intelligence...

Actually, here's a question for Snoj - if aliens land on the lawn of the Whitehouse tomorrow, did God make them as well? And will they worship him, do you think? And another question that came to me today - why, exactly, did God make the Moon? Or the other planets, for that matter. I mean... what purpose do they serve? And frankly, if you just claim that we mere mortals can't begin to understand his divine plan, than I'll just laugh at you

[Zeronet]

God created the universe by starting the big bang and defining the laws by which things are governed. Its the best way to explains the laughable big bang theory which is in a nutshell "there was nothing and then there was something". Still i'd recommend respecting other peoples religions

[Warlock]

The cropcircle thing I'm sure meant faking that they where done by ET or something,....those guys took of effort to make it all look like they just "happened"


And Diamond,...without a doubt I agree there HAS to be life somewhere else in the galaxy. Nearly infinite numbers of other planets out there make it highly improbable that Earth was the only one to have all the needed 'settings' for life to accure.

[CP5670]

Ever wonder why humankind's one driving goal above all else in history is understanding and knowledge ? By nature we (as a whole not as individuals) have to understand everything. That alone is why there will NEVER be a time when EVERYone believes in the '"insert worshiped entity here" just made it so' theory.

If not for science none of us would be having this discussion right now.

Good point. We aren't really understanding anything by saying "it is so because god did it," since the link there is too vague (there is no description of the exact processes) and almost no further deductions can be drawn from it.

I don't get this "natural" VS "supernatural" thing at all. Are we saying that if our current laws of science don't explain something that its not natural?

I dunno, that's what he seems to be saying... (the two are the same as far as I am concerned)

God created the universe by starting the big bang and defining the laws by which things are governed. Its the best way to explains the laughable big bang theory which is in a nutshell "there was nothing and then there was something". Still i'd recommend respecting other peoples religions

I don't think that theory is complete in that state either; to trigger the big bang in the first place, you would need another event, which is why I posted all that stuff about an open timeline at the beginning of the thread. I am not going respect the religion itself (the ideas) any more than I respect stuff like the Flat Earth Society, but I will respect the people themselves and their right to believe it (for now, at least). Still, what would this place be without a little arguing?

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
...why, exactly, did God make the Moon? Or the other planets, for that matter. I mean... what purpose do they serve?

Jupiter's gravity stabilizes the solar system and prevents most destructive comets from reaching Earth; the moon also shields Earth from meteors.  If there was no shield, meteors would quickly wipe out life before it had a chance to develop.  (You need a certain amount of cometary bombardment to deposit water and other needed materials, but after a certain point bombardment becomes more destructive than constructive.)

As for the rest of the universe - it's not just for us.  God made it, apparently, to show off.  "The heavens declare the glory of God" - Psalm something or other.  The universe is an expression of his artistic nature.  It also gives us pretty things to look at through telescopes.

[Warlock]

So god created the universe because he's got a huge ego ?

mmmmmmmmmmmmmK


I swear you get some funny things in this thread

[diamondgeezer]

Originally posted by Goober5000
The moon also shields Earth from meteors.  If there was no shield, meteors would quickly wipe out life before it had a chance to develop

[/b]

Uh-huh. Well, that raises two questions: 1. You think that life developed, or that it was placed here, fully formed? And 2. Why did God (in his infinite wisdom) make the destructive comets? Was that a mistake on his part, or did he perhaps feel that having millions of tonnes of ice and rock raining down on us each year would help to keep us on our toes? Ah, but then there's this:

You need a certain amount of cometary bombardment to deposit water and other needed materials

But not the organic molecules which might have sparked life on Earth. Because, of course, The Man put that there.

Goober mate, you have a very different approach to your religion then most other guys around here. Good effort

[Goober5000]

I see nothing wrong with having comets flying around.  They can help us by depositing water and iridium.  They're also cool to watch in the night sky.

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
1. You think that life developed, or that it was placed here, fully formed?

Yes.  I believe that The Man (good term ) fostered life's development on Earth, and without his influence, life could not have developed.  I note that, so far, scientists have still not been able to "create" DNA/life from simple chemical compounds in the laboratory by zapping stuff with electricity - I think so far they've only been able to make one amino acid.

I see no contradiction between Christianity and science.  Christian faith is essentially trust based on prior knowledge.  Science is the process of discovering knowledge.  And contrary to the "blind faith" impression that some people have, God actually encourages us to question him and our environment if our objective is to learn.

Goober mate, you have a very different approach to your religion then most other guys around here. Good effort

Thanks.

[Falcon X]

After everything I've done I've come up with this:  
"There is a God, and I'm not him."

[HotSnoJ]

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Bobboau's quite right. This is a rather lame argument, Snoj. My christian house mate says this (as I have mentioned before) whenever we get discussing religion. Annoys the hell out of me

That was not my point. I was pointing out to him that the Bible does say how it happend.

See, the sad thing is, is that I believe this to be quite likely. Frankly, if Snoj and his lot can believe in the invisible beardy dude in the sky, I can believe in aliens kick starting the evolution of our intelligence...

You sure can. Seems like a pretty stupid belief, but you can believe it non the less.

Actually, here's a question for Snoj - if aliens land on the lawn of the Whitehouse tomorrow, did God make them as well? And will they worship him, do you think? And another question that came to me today - why, exactly, did God make the Moon? Or the other planets, for that matter. I mean... what purpose do they serve? And frankly, if you just claim that we mere mortals can't begin to understand his divine plan, than I'll just laugh at you

I think if, and thats a really big if, God made them, I won't believe they are like us, in the sense they worship God like us. I believe they'd be something like a house pet or sheep (maybe not intelligence but not human either). Never the less I don't believe there is intelligent life out there.

Someone said something about the sun and moon. Here is my response.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights- the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fourth day.

Bobboau that article on those Self-Reproducing Molecules. The article doesn't tell us if they made them [the molecules] in the conditions that were like at the beginning (the evolutionist one). And they are molecules not cells. That project doesn't prove anything other then that you can make self-reproducing molecules in a lab.

[Warlock]

Hey look.........fasisim at it's best (or worse I guess)

With all due dude ........you're truely coming off as "if it's not what my priest told me then it's not true,...never will be, even if you slap me in the face with an example I won't believe it." type.

I mean ,....you're an example of ppl taking it just a bit TOO seriously,...it's almost like your faith makes you feel special,...like just being who you are isn't good enough for you so you must believe that you were created by some master divine being as part of some grand race,...and you'll defend that no matter what.

I mean damn ... religion and faith are great things,....but read what the hell you've been saying.

[Kamikaze]

Here's an interesting question: If an old bearded man came out of the sky, did miracles, created planets and revived people and claimed he's god.... would you believe him?

Would you have faith in him? Isn't his claim as credible as everyone elses claim to the existence of some grand god? If you don't, what makes you get that conclusion?

And Hotsnoj please explain to me why aliens couldn't have come to earth with miraculous technology (though no 'supernatural') and created humans and done all the things god supposedly did. Why couldn't this be the case? (and please don't reply with dogmatic bull****)

[Goober5000]

I'd believe there was a supernatural realm.  Whether I'd believe he was God is another story.  Now Jesus did essentially that, except he was born and lived like any human - he didn't descend out of the sky with flashing thunderbolts.  In fact, the devil can use miracles occasionally to try to deceive us.

I'd have to have more information - like his record of living, the state of his character, and other stuff.