[Kamikaze]

What if he let you depend on faith?

[Goober5000]

He does.  Not everyone accepted the divinity of Jesus at the time, either.  This is because he was living as a man, and not coming out of the sky as you say.

[Kamikaze]

Well I meant, what if he only told you he's god but nothing else? To let your faith decide...

[Goober5000]

If he said he was God and didn't give any evidence, I wouldn't have any reason to believe him.  Christian faith is not blind faith, it is founded upon evidence.  In the same way, Jesus confirmed his divinity with miracles and wisdom - he didn't ask people to believe on blind faith.

Acts 17:11 (NIV) Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

The Bible calls the Bereans noble, because they double-checked Paul's message with established sources - they didn't blindly accept the new teaching.

[Kamikaze]

So if hte man showed wisdom and did miracles you'd believe him?

[Stealth]

this is going good... best a religion thread has ever gone... no flaming, just a good discussion.

keep it up guys!

[Sesquipedalian]

Originally posted by CP5670
Exactly the same way that it deals with the natural. Since by your definition, anything that exists but is not matter and energy interacting in space and time is supernatural, physics is working on and understanding the supernatural world even today. There is really no point in making this ridiculous distinction between "natural" and "supernatural;" if they both exist, that's all we care about here. This is like saying that mathematics is only allowed to deal with prime numbers and not the rest of the numbers.
...
I never said they did. All I am saying is that patterns exist that fully determine the behavior of everything, including the supernatural. I am not saying anything about god being inconsistent with science because he does not obey our known science laws of today, but rather that god is inconsistent because he does not obey laws period. This has nothing to do with local laws and such.

True enough, there are more possible dimensions than just the four (though they remain merely theoretical at this stage, but that irrelevant), but that doesn't change my point.  Supernature is an "other" realm.  It may be more than one other realm.  The point is that supernatural existence is not subject to the laws of this existence, or not necessarily, anyway.  As just said, there may be more than one such supernatural realm (indeed there appears to be).   The realm of existence inhabited by angelic and demonic beings seems to be different from ours, but again some sort of "world."  Presumably there are indeed law at work in that realm, too (what few, dim adumbrations we are given would seem to indicate so).  But God is removed beyond that again, too, for he is pure being, existing in no realm, but the source of any and every possible world.

I think the fundamental difference between you and I here is not the possibility of realms of existence that are other than this one.  It seems to be that whereas you assume that there is no such thing as independent personal agency (a.k.a. free will), I explicitly do.  For me, not all things in even the natural realm are determined by mathematical laws, for human beings and (it seems) animals have the ability to choose without any prior complusion.  Essentially, when one asks why I did something, the buck stops here in my choice, and doesn't go back beyond that to precedent causes.  God's actions are not compelled by mathematical laws because he is a personal being, with a will of his own.

[Sesquipedalian]

Originally posted by Kamikaze
So if hte man showed wisdom and did miracles you'd believe him?

Well, it would be good of us to point out something that hasn't come up yet.  We believe not just on merely rationalistic bases.  There is also the vitally necessary act of the Holy Spirit in leading us to faith.  The old-fashioned word for it is "illumination."  Basically, God shines the light of truth into our hearts and minds, showing us the truth.  We are brought to faith (which we can then choose or reject) by the action of the Holy Spirit's speaking to us and bringing the truth into our hearts.  This isn't to say that it is an irrational process, as in negating the rational, but instead it is to say that reason by itself cannot bring us to faith (in anything, for that matter).  Reason always flops around in the possible but can never find the truth.  As we talked about before, Kamikaze, even believing in our senses is a matter of faith, not reason.

Reason can work on the truth it is shown, but for us to know God at all, he has to show himself to us first, or reason has nothing to work with.  We know God because he reveals himself to us, and so whether I'd believe that man would depend on whether the Holy Spirit did work in my mind and heart to show me that this was indeed God.  

(NB: I'd be inclined to doubt this if it ever happened because it would be a direct contradiction of Jesus' own words to us, and thus I have very good reason to belive the Holy Spirit will never do such a thing if such an event were to occur.  Indeed, the Bible warns that many false Christ's would come claiming to be him, but that we should not believe any of them, for his return will be unmistakeable, the "end of the world," though "renewing and fixing of the world" might be a better description)

[Sesquipedalian]

Originally posted by HotSnoJ
You sure can. Seems like a pretty stupid belief, but you can believe it non the less.

You are aware that to non-Christians, God usually seems like a pretty stupid belief, right?  People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

For future reference, name-calling isn't a good methodology for convincing people.  You might have done better to ask "If aliens started the whole thing, where did they came from?" and pointed out that the alien origin hypothesis only pushes the question back one step.

[diamondgeezer]

SnoJ - why are you a Christian and not a Muslim? I mean, they love and worship God, right? The same God, supposedly, even if he has a different name. OK, so they don't believe that Jesus was the actual son of God, but then Christian don't believe that Mohammed was a prophet, right?

Anyway, my point is - if you had been brought up in an Islamic family, or a Jewish or Hindu family, would you still be a Christian?

[HotSnoJ]

Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
You are aware that to non-Christians, God usually seems like a pretty stupid belief, right?  People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

For future reference, name-calling isn't a good methodology for convincing people.  You might have done better to ask "If aliens started the whole thing, where did they came from?" and pointed out that the alien origin hypothesis only pushes the question back one step.

Did I call anyone a name? No I said that belief seems stupid. It is a matter of faith, just like any other religion (that includes the evolution theory).

SnoJ - why are you a Christian and not a Muslim? I mean, they love and worship God, right? The same God, supposedly, even if he has a different name. OK, so they don't believe that Jesus was the actual son of God, but then Christian don't believe that Mohammed was a prophet, right?

Not all religions are the same. Islam tells you to send your son to die for Allah. Where as Christianity tells you God sent His son to die for you. Now where do you think the love is?

Anyway, my point is - if you had been brought up in an Islamic family, or a Jewish or Hindu family, would you still be a Christian?

I'd probibly be one of those if I was raised like that. I cannot say what I would do once told about God. I might be sceptical (like anyone would be). I might also reject it all together. But for this I'm glad I was raised in a christian home.

[diamondgeezer]

So, you're a Christian and not a follower of any other religion because... you got lucky?

[HotSnoJ]

That and what I've heard and read about others.

[diamondgeezer]

So people who follow other religions - you think they're what, misguided? Wrong? Blasphemous, perhaps? Exaplain your thoughts, if you will.

And while you're at it, please explain why my believing that aliens began intelligent life on Earth is any more stupid than your belief in an invisible dude in the sky who you reckon loves you...

[CP5670]

True enough, there are more possible dimensions than just the four (though they remain merely theoretical at this stage, but that irrelevant), but that doesn't change my point.  Supernature is an "other" realm.  It may be more than one other realm.  The point is that supernatural existence is not subject to the laws of this existence, or not necessarily, anyway.  As just said, there may be more than one such supernatural realm (indeed there appears to be).   The realm of existence inhabited by angelic and demonic beings seems to be different from ours, but again some sort of "world."  Presumably there are indeed law at work in that realm, too (what few, dim adumbrations we are given would seem to indicate so).  But God is removed beyond that again, too, for he is pure being, existing in no realm, but the source of any and every possible world.

That sounds about right, but then you see, it's not science anymore. It does not have to be subject to our laws; it just has to be subject to some laws. In the science system, if it is an "other" realm, it does not have the property of absolute existence, because if it did then it would be the same realm as this one (all the "realms" are united by the property of existence, and are thus one realm). Also, if god exists in no realm, is he a realm himself? Or is he all realms? (in which case we would be parts of god) Either way, in the science system there must exist laws that determine his behavior completely, or he is not compatible with science.

I think the fundamental difference between you and I here is not the possibility of realms of existence that are other than this one.  It seems to be that whereas you assume that there is no such thing as independent personal agency (a.k.a. free will), I explicitly do.  For me, not all things in even the natural realm are determined by mathematical laws, for human beings and (it seems) animals have the ability to choose without any prior complusion.  Essentially, when one asks why I did something, the buck stops here in my choice, and doesn't go back beyond that to precedent causes.  God's actions are not compelled by mathematical laws because he is a personal being, with a will of his own.

Exactly; I am not saying that anything is wrong with your thing (as far as this topic goes, anyway), but that it is not scientific. That is the whole point of this argument.

By the way, what about objects that are usually considered nonliving? For example, does a table have a will of its own that is fully independent of reality, but just no capability to put its will into practical effect? Does every particle have its own will, so that everything is 100% random? Also, is the god capable of altering other wills to suit his purposes? (in which case the only will would be his)

[diamondgeezer]

Here y'are, SnoJ mate:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2541393.stm

Happy reading

[Bobboau]

"By the way, what about objects that are usually considered nonliving? For example, does a table have a will of its own that is fully independent of reality, but just no capability to put its will into practical effect? Does every particle have its own will, so that everything is 100% random? Also, is the god capable of altering other wills to suit his purposes? (in which case the only will would be his)"

and then by defying our will that you think rationaly,
you are defying the will of God!!!
ou will burn in the darkes pit of hell for defying his will!!!

[Deepblue]

His name is... GOD!!! Really its God Jacobs I've seen him down the street.

[01010]

This thread still going? Bloody hell.

Seems to be treading the same ground as when I left though.

hmmm

[vyper]

There's only 18 shopping days left until xmas.