[Sandwich]

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
I know, bumped it a page and a half. Sorry, but I could resist this one - evolution in action

Explain this, then, you Christian fellows...

Sorry, but this is the first time I've heard of this 'Superbug' - mind explaining to me what this has to do with evolution?

[diamondgeezer]

Since the discovery of penicillin (s/p?), back in the day, medical science has only actually discovered or concoted about 50 or so different anitbiotics. For years, doctors have been worried that a 'superbug' could evolve, a disease resistant to our limited arsenal of antibiotics. If it got loose in a hospital (which is apparently, the most likely place it would evolve), then the consequences could be disastarous - imagine a building full of hundreds or thousands of already weakened people, suddenly exposed to a disease resistant to 95% of our medecines...

Evolutionary theory predicts the superbug - and doctors believe that it is now upon us. Unfortunately, the problem has gone the way of the asteroid impact, and governments have not invested sufficient money in a soloution - the devolpment of new, artificial antibitiocs. You may not realise it, but nearly every one of our antibiotics is found in the natural world and were discovered rather than invented. Doctors believe that they now have the
know how needed to synthesize new drugs, which would put us in the lead in the fight against the bugs.

So there you have - evolution in action. In the case of Science vs. Religion, it's looking like check-mate to Science

[Sandwich]

You jump to conclusions far too quickly, matey.

When that superbug develops appedages, I'll call it evolution. But apparently you need to learn the difference between 'evolution' and 'adaptation':

Evolution: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evolution
Adaptation: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=adaptation

Just like the human eye adapts to varying levels of light, the superbug is adapting to varying levels of antibiotics (if I understand the situation correctly). Do you call the conditioning of a spy to be more resistant to poisons evolution or adaptation?

[HotSnoJ]

Well said Sandwich.

I was about to write the same thing but you said it much better.

[diamondgeezer]

Ah-ha - I've got you there, Mr Sandwich!

The difference is that the bugs have handed their survival traits down thorugh the generations. The spy may become resistant to poisons through training, but will his descendants be born with the same resistance?

The bugs that have the characteristics necessary to survive our antibiotics will do so, and mulitply, and pass on their traits to their 'descendants'. The bugs that do not have the necessary characteristics will die, and their 'inferior' characteristics will not be passed on. Survival of the fittest, as Darwin said.

Woo! Go science!

[HotSnoJ]

Did you even read the links? The superbug never evolved. the only difference between it and it's ancesters is the this one is resistent to anti-biotics.

[diamondgeezer]

Evolution, my boy - that's how evolution works. That's what it is. Afterall, the only difference between us and our ancestors is hair, tails, and a love of phallic yellow fruit. To a bacterium, being resistant to most all anitbiotics is as important as our being able to walk and chew gum is to us, no doubt.

Evolutionary theory states that future generations will be better equpiied to survive adverse conditions then the current generations (assuming that species survives at all). And this is what the super bug has done. One the whole, its ancestors would be killed by our drugs. Those few that could survive, did so. Now they have mulitplied and are taking the place of the non-resistant bugs, as they die off. Numbers of non-resistant bugs go down. Numbers of resistant, super-bugs go up. Eventually, the non-resistant bugs are all dead, and the species has completely evoloved a resistance to the majority of modern medecines. Survival of the fittest. Booyah!

[Sandwich]

Dude, there is a huge difference between a virus/bacteria passing along traits - there's not much there that can change without affecting it's genetic structure - and humans evolving from monkeys.

[diamondgeezer]

No there isn't. I need some numbers crunched - hey CP, do some maths involving the size of a human and their gene count vs a bacterium and its gene count (rough and crude, I know, but hey). Also, how long have we had antibiotics? Try how many generations of bacteria have been exposed to antibiotics, to produce superbugs in the last, say, decade, vs. how many generation of true homo sapiens have there been?

There is no difference at all, Sandwich - the problem is that you religious guys can't accpet the fact that we humans are the result of lengthy, natural process which has relied on accident and random chance as much as any thing else. You desperately want something to make you believe that you are better than the germs or the other animals. We are not. There is no divine purpose guiding us. We, both as a species and as individuals, got here by sheer accident and luckand very little else. There is no supreme being with a master plan for us. We are in no way different from any other creature on this planet - except for our ability to process abstract concepts, which grants a us delusion of "morality".

Another thing - I suppose you guys don't believe neanderthal man ever existed, right? Another species of homonid? Does that appear in the Bible? Yet we have neanderthal skeletons. They had been thought to have died out over 20'000 years ago, having apprently been superceded by us lot - homo sapiens (survival of the fittest again, in a slightly different context). However, new research in Portugal uncovered skeltons with both homo sapien and neanderthal characteristics. The conclusion of the investigators is that the few remaining neanderthal families merged with 'invading' migratory homo sapien families. Offspring of these mergers produced the hybrid skeletons, and since the DNA is a close enough match, the hybrids could breed. It is now believed that there is residual neanderthal DNA in the european make-up at least, if not further spread around the world... the desireable characteristics of the neanderthal (such as tool skills, art and famliy-level social interaction) were added to human DNA - and before you say owt, we're talking about a time when you needed a certain mindset to grasp the basics of tool making and operation here, and the neanderthal outclassed us lot by far in the tool field - he made far superior flint tools, a skill humans never really picked up until the period when the hybrid skeletons were dated to. A combination of inherited mental abilites and taught skills are responible, it is thought. Humans had other skills and natural qualites, and the resulting hybrid was better equipped than either species to deal with his or her world.

It all comes down to survival of the fittest - which animal has the best chances of surviving long enoug to breed? The fastest one. The one with the biggest teeth and claws. The one with the brightest clours, to attract the lay-deez. The one that can eat the most varied kind of diet, thus expanding it's food resources. The creature better suited to it's environment survives, breeds, and over the generations, the species evolves. Survival. Of. The. Fittest.

That, and Darwin had a better beard than God and Jesus combined

[Bobboau]

did you guys even read the links sandvich posted

adaptation

The act or process of adapting.
The state of being adapted.

Something, such as a device or mechanism, that is changed or changes so as to become suitable to a new or special application or situation.
A composition that has been recast into a new form: The play is an adaptation of a short novel.
Biology. An alteration or adjustment in structure or habits, often hereditary, by which a species or individual improves its condition in relationship to its environment.
Physiology. The responsive adjustment of a sense organ, such as the eye, to varying conditions, such as light intensity.
Change in behavior of a person or group in response to new or modified surroundings.

evolution

A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.

The process of developing.
Gradual development.
Biology.
Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.
A movement that is part of a set of ordered movements.
Mathematics. The extraction of a root of a quantity.

adaptation is a general term, while evolution does fall into this catagory, adaptation is more oftine used to describe learned behaviural changes,
evolution is exactly what is going on here, some bacteria survive an antibiodic, becase what ever weakness the antibiodic was useing gets changed a little due to mutation. then they being the only ones that survived reproduce themselves untill you get sick again, you get more antibiodics, more bacteria survive  than last time, these ones are considerably more resistant to the drug. they reproduce themselves, you get sick, you get drugs, a few of them die but by now natural selection has led to the current incarnation to be fairly resistant, you feel beter for a while but now they can tolorate the drug and reproduce in its presence at a rate faster than it kills them and now it's just a mater of time before the drug is rendered totaly useless against what ever bug it is that is now devouring you're flesh at a geometric rate.
moral of the story, those who don't beleve in evolution and are stupid enough to not follow there doctors advice are going to be handed a Darwin award

also there are aproxomately
3.1 billion base pairs and 30,000 genes in the human genome, lets compare that with some other organisms
yeast 12million BP, 5300 genes
malaria 23m BP, 6294 G
slime mold 34m, 11,000
nematode 97m, 19,000
fruit fly 137m, 14,000
malaria masquito 289m, 14000
rice 420m, 50,000
purple sea urchin 900m, 27350
mouse 2.7 Billion base pairs, 22,500-30,000 (were not sure exactly) genes

Corn 3 Billion base pairs (compare to the 3.1 billion of humans)
and 50,000 genes! we only have 30,000 and this is fricken CORN!! it's a domesticated plant, surely you will egnolege that corn of today is not like corn of 40,000 years ago
Wheat has 16 billion base pairs, and a comperable 50,000 genes

bullfrogs have 6.9 billion base pairs, and Amoeba dubia, a protozoan, has 670 billion (yes billion) base pairs !!!
we don't know how many genes there are in there but it's a fair bet it's more than us
source discover magasine

now you can see that complexity or 'superiority' has little to do with the size of ones genome, and has nothing to do with the evolvability of said organism.

[diamondgeezer]

We got 'em now, Bob. Hail Darwin, Master of facial hair! All shall follow his theories and dispair! Mwahahaha!

[Bobboau]

evolution is mother,
evolution is father

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
...There is no divine purpose guiding us. We, both as a species and as individuals, got here by sheer accident and luckand very little else. There is no supreme being with a master plan for us.

Gosh, I'm sorry that the sheer existance of the very nation in which I live is a testament to the fact that God not only exists, but is still active in the world today. So it was prophesied in a book thousands of years ago that the Jews would return to the land God has given them as an eternal inheritance - and now we're the Arnold Schwartzenagger of the world... "We're back!". So it was prophesied that Jerusalem would become a stumbling stone to the rest of the world - why, gosh! Lookie here! And here! Wow - Jerusalem seems to be in every single headline of newspapers all over the world. Hmmm..... I guess it figures, since the rest of the world considers all the current problems to be caused by the Jews residing in their land. Such nerve - how dare they!

My faith is not out of some personal insecurity, some "need" to believe in a guiding force beyond what we can touch and see and hear. It isn't founded in the teachings of Sunday school lessons ingrained in a young and impressionable mind.

No, my faith is based upon the fulfilment of ancient prophecy right before my very own eyes, in complete disregard of the incredibility of it all. When was the State of Israel formed? At the peak of the Jews' military or political power? Hardly! It was formed after the Holocaust, when 6 million were slaughtered wholesale. It was formed by Holocaust refugees, coming off the boats. And not only that, but it was birthed into a situation that immediately sprouted into full-blown war - a war waged not against a military might, but against those very same Holocaust refugees, disembarking from their ships, being given guns, and going to fight for their right to live. And our victory against the armies of Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Trans-Jordan, and a Saudi Arabian contingent was not by our own might.

Why do you think that the Islamic world hates the Jews so much? Because every single war that Islam has waged against Israel has failed, in essence the god of the Koran being defeated by the God of the Bible. And what a shame that is for Islam.

Israel's continued existance is proof and guarantee that the Word of God holds true today. If Israel is wiped out, my faith crumbles, because that proves the Word of God a lie. America can fall, Iraq may be turned into one big parking lot, but it will not affect my faith. Israel, however, is crucial, and according to the Bible, so long as there is a sun in the sky and stars by night, Israel shall be a nation before God forever.

So bring those Shivans on - let's see them try to make Sol go supernova!

[vyper]

I don't believe in God, and I don't believe in us being here by accident. We exist via evolution. The fittest survived, from primordial soup to cavemen, to today. I need no God, for I have my humanity. We are sentient and intelligent and that makes us powerful. It just so happens, some of us do not have the same beliefs and when our brainpower fails we fall back our basic instincts that are always violent.  Also, sorry Sand, but in terms of the existence of your country, I think thats just the result of human evolution and intelligence too.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by vyper
Also, sorry Sand, but in terms of the existence of your country, I think thats just the result of human evolution and intelligence too.

How can you blanketly dismiss what Sandwich just posted?  Israel was birthed out of slavery.  Israel was violently uprooted from her homeland, not once, but several times.  Hitler tried to exterminate the Jewish people during WWII - and keep in mind, the Jews at that time were still in exile (without their own country).  And yet Israel exists as a nation today.

Chalk it up to survival of the fittest.

[vyper]

Originally posted by Goober5000


How can you blanketly dismiss what Sandwich just posted?  Israel was birthed out of slavery.  Israel was violently uprooted from her homeland, not once, but several times.  Hitler tried to exterminate the Jewish people during WWII - and keep in mind, the Jews at that time were still in exile (without their own country).  And yet Israel exists as a nation today.

Chalk it up to survival of the fittest.

Hmm, I see tempers are still fragile around here. Well, I won't argue with you on those points.  And i never did. I just don't see how it proves God is still, or ever was kickin about!  

[Black_Dragon]

First of all, to me God doesnt exist.

I think Religion making god ,  al of it,  is for emotions and mentality,  to make people feel better.  Well its even use as for advantages to the church,  for power,  for example,  this astronomer,  that found that Earth wasnt really in the center of the universe,  and then he brought it up to the church,  they did what they wanted and pleased them, as they killed him because he was "wrong" and the church was right.

Really i dont need god,  because he never help me,  people say to me pray for you better future.  Blah Blah.   Because i was the one who did everything to be where im now.   And even i dont have to fallow the way of obligation.   But i respect others,  and i dont give a crap on what are their beliefs.

[Bobboau]

I don't see Israial as a testement to God I see it as a testomont of the israilies,
God didn't found the modern state of Isrial, you did
God didn't hold off the entire middle east full of insain murderers, you did
God is not responsable for the great things we as a speiceses and people have done, we are

hell even if there was a God he wouldn't be responsable for the things we've done, wich is something that deeply religous people always say, anything good is God, any thing bad is man,
no even under the assumption of a God, we have free will and our acomplishments are our own, all to the greatness of man

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Bobboau

God didn't hold off the entire middle east full of insain murderers, you did

No time for a proper reply, but just know that every single one of the wars Israel's fought for her survival has been won due to downright, out-and-out, documented miracles.

[Bobboau]

ah, you don't give you're selves enough credit,
you guys kick major ass