[Top Gun]

Warlock: That's hardly the point. Fairness surely doesn't come into the equation when a government exists where one can ascend to the top positions through inherrited wealth and influence.

Mikhael: Whilst boot camp and military life may have had a positive effect on you there are countless instances where it has caused mental perversion and had a profoundly negative effect. The percentage of homeless people that are ex servicepeople is disturbing to say the least.

[wEvil]

Originally posted by mikhael

wEvil, I know you don't have anything to do with my government, but your government isn't doing much right either (except the Beeb. love the Beeb).

I dislike my government even more, if possible

You have hit the nail on the head, however.  People refuse to take responsibility for everyone else, therefore the social structure breaks down.  

And humans are pack animals - we arent equipped to be loners.  I fully expect to be held accountable for whatever I say on this board, and i'm also one of those people that feels accountable for others.  Im not going to change, its just what I am.

Now i know its unfair to expect everyone else to be like that but come on - with just a little understanding and going out of your way to be nice to someone things will soon drastically change for the better.  

I am against greed for that reason, its not that getting what you want through work is bad - its what it does to people internally.  They become turned in on themselves and no longer want anything to do with people whom they determine "can't be bothered".  Its just as bad a mental virus as communism, or fascism, or anything else you care to term the western world has produced propaganda against for the past 400 years.

Now maybe i havent explained myself well here, but i hope you get my point.  Im not here to crap all over everything you guys have worked for - i want to make it better, but i just think if there's ever going to be that kind of change we need to attempt new things, because without that everything will assuredly turn degenerate.  And all you have to do is look at the music charts or go to a cinema to see how few new ideas and concepts are being generated - It's scary.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Top Gun
Warlock: That's hardly the point. Fairness surely doesn't come into the equation when a government exists where one can ascend to the top positions through inherrited wealth and influence.

And ? I mean damn go figure Gov. members are high percentage from weathly families. The education needed isn't cheap. I don't think nor desire educational facilities to make themselves free,...they have to fund themselves somehow and I'd much rather the ppl attending pay for that than every single person in the country (taxes)

Mikhael: Whilst boot camp and military life may have had a positive effect on you there are countless instances where it has caused mental perversion and had a profoundly negative effect. The percentage of homeless people that are ex servicepeople is disturbing to say the least.

Just like any other statical data this can be applied to numberous cases. Fact is the US military does a hell of to assist service members that are completing their tour od duty. Roughly one year prior to the end of your tour you start working with ACAP on a resume and job contacts, hell more than 90% of my friends that left service had a job BEFORE they got out. Military has numberous services set up to help ppl prepare for life outside of the military,....but it takes something of ppl don't want to do....effort. I've seen of homeless,...ex army and some never in service,..90% have one thing in common...they want ppl to just GIVE them whatever. Go up to a homeless person and offer to feed them in exchange for them doing simple tasks (yardwork for example),....chances are they'll just tell you to give them $10 and leave them be.

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by Warlock

And ? I mean damn go figure Gov. members are high percentage from weathly families. The education needed isn't cheap. I don't think nor desire educational facilities to make themselves free,...they have to fund themselves somehow and I'd much rather the ppl attending pay for that than every single person in the country (taxes)

It's nice to see a display from someone with a mentality devoted to such complete self serrvitude, layed as bare as it is in that statement, without hypocracy or attempt at justification. I trust you're in the echelon which is able to afford this privelaged education. From this we'll have to oppose, discussion is pointless.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Top Gun


It's nice to see a display from someone with a mentality devoted to such complete self serrvitude, layed as bare as it is in that statement, without hypocracy or attempt at justification. I trust you're in the echelon which is able to afford this privelaged education. From this we'll have to oppose, discussion is pointless.

Ok so now you're re-wording things eh ?

See this is where assuming things ****s you,...because no I am not from a wealthy family. In fact my father was a carpenter until just a few years ago,... I've lived and seen our family struggle through rough times ... hell times when I was a small child that my father literally went hunting to FEED us. Am I upset about it ? Not really. Yea it was ****ty seeing my father get laid off because a contractor could hire 30 Mexicans at $3 an hour to replace his crews (fact not sarcasim here ppl,...sorry if it offends) but in stead of whining about the Government and demanding someone 'help' our family, we pushed on. Now my father's the Construction Coordinator for Herino County, pulling in great pay for him and mom,...Mom's near retirement from her job as a CT Technician at the Hospital near them.

Me ? I joined the ARMY to get a higher education. I'm currently setting up extra college course for nightstudy even.

So how do you 'trust' I'm from that 'echelon' that can afford higher education when in fact I and my family had to bust our white asses to get to where we're at in life ? God you have to love when ppl that don't even life in your country think they know enough to make "educated" guesses about it.  


I nearly forgot : As to the whole selfservitude BS,... Ummm lesse,... 5 years service in the Army, spent my High school years doing community service with my ROTC group, and fact is that anyone that knows me knows all they need to ever do is call me and I'm there to lend them a hand with anything they may need.

Just thought i'd help ya get some facts mixed into all that fiction k?

[wEvil]

Well, im sorry to hear that Warlock.

Here in the UK things are slightly different - getting into higher education is quite easier, as the govornment gives us a loan (not a GRANT - a loan, IE we now have to pay it back...which is funny considering the taxes went up instead of down to counter it)

My family has had it very rough since 1990, and we're only just recovering - although with both my parents pushing their early/mid 50's its getting a little late in the game.  Hell - we dont even have a house.

Anyway, there isnt a point to this other than saying "i'm worse off than you".

My point is that is people who found it no strain just eased up a little and started shifting all that wealth around instead of hanging onto it until the bitter end - when, i might add, you can't even take it with you - things would generally be much better.

I understand people want their kids to have enough money to live off when they die etc. etc. etc....but come on - do we really need this much stuff?!

Before you ask, i use (or will use) my computer to earn my living.  But thats about the only high-value item I own.  I find extraneous wealth pointless after you have what you need - you're better off giving it away to someone who really needs it.  Not that I currently HAVE much extraneous wealth.

[Top Gun]

Warlock: It was quite wrong of me to assume, I admit. It is not the least bit logical that your stace with reguards to politics is as it is, indeed I assumed better of you.

I would have thought such hardship would have cultivated well justified resentment of a system that lets an excessively wealthy semi-retard (as an example) into the upmost position of power whilst actively blocking the intelligent from poorer backgrounds from persuing the same path. and I quote you "Gov. members are high percentage from weathly families. The education needed isn't cheap." One should then deduce from that, that your statistical chance of 'doing well in life' from a careerist's point of view, if you have descended from a poor background is considerably lower.

I assume again that you aknowledge the fact that your current prosperity has not been achieved through work alone, a great deal of luck is also needed. The above quoted statement is an aknowledgement of a non merirocratic society. Why do you view poverty as a test of character, and the recognition of the unfairness in the distribution of wealth an admission of weakness and defeatism? Your use of the phrase "whining to the government" interests me. Are you trying to state that life is fair when you and many others are forced to "hunt for a living" whilst others live in vulgar luxury without lifting a finger. Is 'whinging to the government' supposed to be an act of greed an act of greed that you should expect to be payed with adequate wage?


Your defence of a system which has tolerated you going through such hardship, allowing escape from it to be difficult, yet allowing the inherritance of such unneccessary wealth and influence to those who have made no positive contribution to society is a betrayal to all those who are facing the same troubles you had.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by wEvil
Well, im sorry to hear that Warlock.

Here in the UK things are slightly different - getting into higher education is quite easier, as the govornment gives us a loan (not a GRANT - a loan, IE we now have to pay it back...which is funny considering the taxes went up instead of down to counter it)

My family has had it very rough since 1990, and we're only just recovering - although with both my parents pushing their early/mid 50's its getting a little late in the game.  Hell - we dont even have a house.

Anyway, there isnt a point to this other than saying "i'm worse off than you".

My point is that is people who found it no strain just eased up a little and started shifting all that wealth around instead of hanging onto it until the bitter end - when, i might add, you can't even take it with you - things would generally be much better.



I understand people want their kids to have enough money to live off when they die etc. etc. etc....but come on - do we really need this much stuff?!

Before you ask, i use (or will use) my computer to earn my living.  But thats about the only high-value item I own.  I find extraneous wealth pointless after you have what you need - you're better off giving it away to someone who really needs it.  Not that I currently HAVE much extraneous wealth.

The only reason I said what I did was to counter Top Gun's notions that since I don't agree that highere Ed should be handed out and I've known more homeless that refuse to help themselves instead of wait for a handout,...then i must be part of his evil wealthy classification.  

Anyways no need to be sorry, I'm the man I am now because of how I got here. I'm quite proud to be able to look back and see that everything I have in life was earned and not given to me

As far as the Loans, we've got Student loans here also, just most of the ppl I know that applied for and received them (which most that applied got it) then had debt problems from paying it all back. Sadly that's mostly due to the fact that 75% of my friends that went to college took majors in silly "fun" courses,...while majoring in Literature and such might be enjoyable, unless you plan to become a teacher half the time it's not practical

Also honestly I never expect to see a "joint wealth" concept actually happen in my lifetime, or anyones for quite sometime. It's human nature to work to achive a higher station, but its also human nature to not want to give away what you've worked for. It's a grand idea, just not something I think would ever happen.


**EDIT** heh sorry I mistakingly replied within the middle of the quote  

[CP5670]

I understand people want their kids to have enough money to live off when they die etc. etc. etc....but come on - do we really need this much stuff?!

Well, here is the thing; what really do we need? The simple answer is nothing, not even things like air, water and so on. Sure, they are necessary for physical survival and health, but why in the world is that important? And if it is somehow necessary, why not anything else as well? (e.g. becoming Gates-type multibillionaires and buying all these luxuries) Everyone seems to have their own almost aribitrary idea of what is necessary, which dictates what they do in their lives, but none of these necessities are absolutely objective.

One thing I will say here is that I do indeed like communism as a principle, but not because it makes a better life for the average man or anything, but rather because it dulls the individual and strengthens the institution (under ideal circumstances, anyway). However, as Warlock said, the current capitalist system will probably be around for at least our lifetimes.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Top Gun
It was quite wrong of me to assume, I admit. It is not the least bit logical that your stace with reguards to politics is as it is, indeed I assumed better of you.

I would have thought such hardship would have cultivated well justified resentment of a system that lets an excessively wealthy semi-retard (as an example) into the upmost position of power whilst actively blocking the intelligent from poorer backgrounds from persuing the same path. and I quote you "Gov. members are high percentage from weathly families. The education needed isn't cheap." One should then deduce from that, that your statistical chance of 'doing well in life' from a careerist's point of view, if you have descended from a poor background is considerably lower.

I assume again that you aknowledge the fact that your current prosperity has not been achieved through work alone. The above quoted statement is an aknowledgement of a non merirocratic society. Why do you view poverty as a test of character, and the recognition of the unfairness in the distribution of wealth an admission of weakness and defeatism? Your defence of a system which has tolerated you going through such hardship, allowing escape from it to be difficult, yet allowing the inherritance of such unneccessary wealth and influence to those who have made no positive contribution to society is a betrayal to all those who are facing the same troubles you had.

I don't view poverty as a test of character,...I view LIFE as a test of it.

My defence of the system is based on the fact that if I WANTED to strive for a political career...I COULD have. Fact is I decided on a military career when I was 10,...once I was in Jr. High and able to enroll in JRotc, I did and used that as a 'test' of military lifestyle (albeit a minor one) and thus decided my course in life, 7 days after grad, I was in Bootcamp.

And if you lived here and saw what I see daily...you'd know the 'system' and society isn't betraying ppl with troubles,...in fact it's helping TOO much.

Welfare : You have NO idea just how many ppl life off a state funded check each month yet find excuses NOT to educate themselves in order to be able to live off their OWN means. (Yes I have personally known ppl living on welfare and flat ass refusing to take a job (If i work they'll cut my check). Do you have any clue as to how many single mothers on welfare constantly have MORE children in order to increase that same check?? Hell the state not only gives them a check, it adds to that check food stamps , and offers to help train them for work, childcare, etc.

If you're curious...I once dated someone that was living off the state,..I left her for the sole fact she refused to work because her 2 year old daughter was too young to be in daycare while she worked instead of just staying home and getting a check and food stamps.

Hell just the other night on the News was a story,...one of those nice little tearjerking help this poor SOB out types,..about a DRUGDEALER,...that was shot in a gang fighter and paralyised (sp?), then recently had his specially equiped car stolen from him,...and how they've contacted a local dealer that had the same model about GIVING the car to him as a replacement!

I see **** like that on the news almost every night. But you say MY system LETS ppl in hardships suffer ? ? ?

**THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO COME OFF AS RACIST**

Do you know that as a white male I've got LESS assistance to a higher education ? Nearly EVERY minority has a minority specific education fund. While 40 years ago I could see this,....I thought the goal was equality, not give me extra.

Sorry nothing against ethics ,... just an example of how the 'evil system in the US' is helping,...not abandoning.

Ok I'll stop ranting for a moment

[Top Gun]

Originally posted by CP5670
Everyone seems to have their own almost aribitrary idea of what is necessary, which dictates what they do in their lives, but none of these necessities are absolutely objective.

Of course that's true but for that to have not been a hypocritical statement is impossible. (Fancy giving up maths?). To quote Nietzche 'In order to evaluate life, one must niether be living not dead.'

[CP5670]

Sure, why not? To tell you the truth, I only go with math because everything else in the universe is much worse. "Necessity" doesn't mean anything.

[wEvil]

were you going to reply to that post at the top or just quote it and make it look pretty?  opps...sorry, you did reply to it, my bad.

[01010]

Originally posted by CP5670
Sure, why not? To tell you the truth, I only go with math because everything else in the universe is much worse.

Read as:

I fear the real world

[Warlock]

Originally posted by wEvil
were you going to reply to that post at the top or just quote it and make it look pretty?  opps...sorry, you did reply to it, my bad.

Heh no worries ... after you said that it took me a minute to find my own comments and seperate them,..since I kinna just spliced them right in the middle of yours

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Warlock


Welfare : You have NO idea just how many ppl life off a state funded check each month ...

Hey, I'm one of those people living off a state funded check each week right now... Not for much longer, I hope.

Do you know that as a white male I've got LESS assistance to a higher education ? Nearly EVERY minority has a minority specific education fund. While 40 years ago I could see this,....I thought the goal was equality, not give me extra.

I'm one of those ethinics, Warlock. When I started on my path to college (the first time), I was deluged with every pamphlet ever for helping good Puerto Rican Catholics get an education. I passed all of them up. I greatly dislike the idea that not only do I get offered special treatment because I'm "a minority", but I also get special aid. Its bull****.

One of the things that I liked about the army growing up, and the Navy as a servicemember, was that we didn't have a lot of "race". Everyone was "military" and that was it. Maybe we just got lucky in our postings, my father and I, I dunno. I never experienced honest to goodness racism until we moved to North Carolina and moved off base.

Bah. Give me the military any day.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by mikhael

Hey, I'm one of those people living off a state funded check each week right now... Not for much longer, I hope.

Actually if you mean unemployment that's different. For one it's funded by employers, their taxes account for it (Like last time I was out of work because it wasn't a layoff the VA UnEmp office had to have a "hearing" between myself and my previous employer to see if I qualified for UnEmp Assistance because if I did (which I did) it came from their buisness, not the state. Plus UnEmp is also limited, the amount is based off an average of your past year's wages plus a time limit on how long you can recieve it plus you have to submit a record of job contacts made weekly in order to get that weeks check.

I'm one of those ethinics, Warlock. When I started on my path to college (the first time), I was deluged with every pamphlet ever for helping good Puerto Rican Catholics get an education. I passed all of them up. I greatly dislike the idea that not only do I get offered special treatment because I'm "a minority", but I also get special aid. Its bull****.

One of the things that I liked about the army growing up, and the Navy as a servicemember, was that we didn't have a lot of "race". Everyone was "military" and that was it. Maybe we just got lucky in our postings, my father and I, I dunno. I never experienced honest to goodness racism until we moved to North Carolina and moved off base.

Bah. Give me the military any day.

Thank you for not taking my comment in a poor light,..I was worried that someone would just jump on it without understanding

And it wasn't just where you and your father were stationed,..the 5 years I was in I don't recall any racisit remarks even,...closest thing was certain types of ppl always bonded closer, which is merely natural of course,...but I could walk up to ANY fellow soldier and talk about or ask/give assistance on anything without ever worrying over racial issues.

[diamondgeezer]

*sees average post lenght increase*

Oh blimey... it's turning in to one of those threads. Soon enough the only people who post in it will be CP and Stryke...


<-- Too lazy to read threads when they get this long...

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Warlock

Actually if you mean unemployment that's different. For one it's funded by employers, their taxes account for it (Like last time I was out of work because it wasn't a layoff the VA UnEmp office had to have a "hearing" between myself and my previous employer to see if I qualified for UnEmp Assistance because if I did (which I did) it came from their buisness, not the state. Plus UnEmp is also limited, the amount is based off an average of your past year's wages plus a time limit on how long you can recieve it plus you have to submit a record of job contacts made weekly in order to get that weeks check.

Yeah, I know. The funny thing is that my income form the unemployment check is more than my wife's nominal income.

I just got word (mere minutes ago) that I have an interview for a job that will pay about the same as my unemployment benefit. At least it will be work though. I like work.

[CP5670]

*sees average post lenght increase*

essays are soon to come

Read as:

I fear the real world

Actually, it's more like "I hate the real world." There are many things that are great about it, but there is equally a lot that is really despicable. (and by real world I mean all of absolute existence, including universal laws, processes of discovery, and so on)

As for the racism thing, I have not really experienced much of it in my lifetime but might run into the problem a bit when applying for universities given my indian ethnicity. I don't know why they want "ethnic diversity" over capable students even in the topmost universities, because this concept is pretty ridiculous; for example, if they have only one spot and have to choose between me and say, a guy with slightly lesser credentials but of arab ethnicity, they will definitely choose the latter. So I was thinking, what if someone just changes their name to something that sounds like its from some more favored ethnicity, and put down that as the race on all the application forms, are they actually going to check?