[Nico]

Originally posted by Sandwich


*Ker-SMITE!*

Didn't know you were one of those people who read the first post and then reply to the whole topic, Mik.

usualy he does, I'm surprised and shocked

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Sandwich


*Ker-SMITE!*

Didn't know you were one of those people who read the first post and then reply to the whole topic, Mik. You see, had you read ...
...you would know that I haven't even begun to allocate.

Actually, I DID read the entire thread first, and was expressing my opinion on what was shown currently IN FULL AWARENESS that you hadn't gone back beyond the initial boxes drawn in Rhino.

Next time, I'll not bother to respond at all. *shrug*

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by mikhael
Actually, I DID read the entire thread first, and was expressing my opinion on what was shown currently IN FULL AWARENESS that you hadn't gone back beyond the initial boxes drawn in Rhino.

Ahh, I see. Well, the way you phrased it sounded simply like yet another "there's too much deck space!!" post, which is why I replied like I did.

*takes out de-smackage machine*

*aims at Mikhael and activates*

SCHLOOOMP!!

Originally posted by mikhael
Next time, I'll not bother to respond at all. *shrug*

Don't you dare...

Anyway, got an update. I've begun to flesh out the decks into the 3rd dimension. I haven't begun to remove deck space allocated for machinery yet, as I'd much rather allocate space in full 3D as opposed to allocating a whole section from port to starboard, if you get what I mean.

Oncee I flesh out all the decks, I'll begin equipping the ship with internal machinery by concentrating on the guts of things that are already partially outside the hull, such as turrets, engines, radar mast stuff, docking port airlocks, etc.

The image below is an animated GIF, with 3 frames, so wait for it - it's 177kb.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Sandwich
...Oncee I flesh out all the decks, I'll begin equipping the ship with internal machinery by concentrating on the guts of things that are already partially outside the hull, such as turrets, engines, radar mast stuff, docking port airlocks, etc.
 

Quick lesson (from a sailor's point of view) in naval architecture (at least wet navy): Concentrate on the guts and the machinery and the turrets and engines and stuff. THEN, as an afterthought, design the decks and the stuff for human comfort. If you have room to move around, to stretch, to wave, to scratch your back, to turn over, etc, you've got too much damn space for the people.

Next time a US Carrier is anchored off the coast of  Israel, take a tour. You'll see what I mean. Better yet, take a tour on a submarine. Boomer's are closer, engineering wise, to what you'd see in a Fenris/Leviathin.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Sandwich
*takes out de-smackage machine*

*aims at Mikhael and activates*

SCHLOOOMP!!

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by mikhael
Quick lesson (from a sailor's point of view) in naval architecture (at least wet navy): Concentrate on the guts and the machinery and the turrets and engines and stuff. THEN, as an afterthought, design the decks and the stuff for human comfort. If you have room to move around, to stretch, to wave, to scratch your back, to turn over, etc, you've got too much damn space for the people.

When you consider that the Fenris is 253m to the aircraft carrier Enterprise's 335m, and it's mass, due to it's vertical design, far greater than the carrier's mass, you ge tthe feeling that they won't be cramped for space on the Fenris - especially since they have no need for the first below-deck level to be dedicated to aircraft storage.

But you're right about the design priority, however, it isn't much different from what I'm already doing. I needed to get those decks in there to give myself a sense of scale, and it's much easier in Rhino to boolean subtract a big column of space for a 12-deck computer core than it is to design 12 decks with a hole through them.

Once I complete the decks, I'll start placing all the engine blocks and other equipment.

Originally posted by mikhael
Next time a US Carrier is anchored off the coast of  Israel, take a tour. You'll see what I mean. Better yet, take a tour on a submarine. Boomer's are closer, engineering wise, to what you'd see in a Fenris/Leviathin.

Actually, I went to tour the USS Enterprise when she moored off Haifa port. She's big, and thinking back really give me a sense of the scale of the little ol' Fenris here.

[Setekh]

Originally posted by Sandwich
Anyway, got an update. I've begun to flesh out the decks into the 3rd dimension. I haven't begun to remove deck space allocated for machinery yet, as I'd much rather allocate space in full 3D as opposed to allocating a whole section from port to starboard, if you get what I mean.

Oncee I flesh out all the decks, I'll begin equipping the ship with internal machinery by concentrating on the guts of things that are already partially outside the hull, such as turrets, engines, radar mast stuff, docking port airlocks, etc.

The image below is an animated GIF, with 3 frames, so wait for it - it's 177kb.

That is really nice. Maybe we could make a map for it later in our FPS of choice (Unreal 2?).

[mikhael]

Consider, though, the greater need for structural and armor volumes on the Fenris that you just don't have on a wet navy ship (except the more constrained spaces of a submarine).

Your hull is going to be much thicker to start, with more armor. Holing a pressured volume is substantially worse than the holing a wet navy surface vessel. That armoring has to be accounted for somehow. With that in mind, you'll have multiple layers of hull (each armored as well), further restricting your internal volume. You'll want to space decks further apart with pressure locks (not necessarily dogged 24/7, but certainly during general quarters) in between. Again the focus is on the gear, structural requirements and battle damage control. If you're decks are thinner than your armor/pressure hulls, one holed deck will turn into multiple holed decks very quickly.

RE: Enterprise
Ain't she pretty? I pulled along side another ship of her class in San Diego. She was riding dry weight and I was aboard a single masted sailboat. The sheer presence of the carrier was overwhelming. They're stunning examples of engineering.

[Shrike]

Compared to water, air doesn't have all that much pressure.  Maintaining a pressurized environment wouldn't be too difficult, really.

Obviously you'd want enough armor to keep shrapnel from opening up every compartment in the ship, but a couple inches of steel (or equivalent) should do that reasonably well.  If you try to armor every deck and every compartment you will quite soon find that your internal armor far exceeds your external armor.  Spend too much on internal armor and you'll have to sacrifice external armor, meaning that shots that wouldn't normal penetrate and do any damage will instead inflict small but eventually significant damage.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Setekh


That is really nice. Maybe we could make a map for it later in our FPS of choice (Unreal 2?).

I wouldn't do it alone, mainly because I don't have an FPS of choice. But anyone's welcome to use it when I'm done.

Originally posted by mikhael
Your hull is going to be much thicker to start, with more armor. Holing a pressured volume is substantially worse than the holing a wet navy surface vessel. That armoring has to be accounted for somehow. With that in mind, you'll have multiple layers of hull (each armored as well), further restricting your internal volume. You'll want to space decks further apart with pressure locks (not necessarily dogged 24/7, but certainly during general quarters) in between. Again the focus is on the gear, structural requirements and battle damage control. If you're decks are thinner than your armor/pressure hulls, one holed deck will turn into multiple holed decks very quickly.

I've been trying to keep a bare minimum of 1 meter between open space and pressurized inside, so I think that should be close enough for rocket science.

And look in the first picture, towards the back, where the engine section joins the rest of the ship... see those little sections? Emergency bulkheads and airlocks, in case of catastrpohic engine faliure, the whole aft section can be isolated from the rest of the ship and detached via explosive bolts (Explosive Meson Bolts - EMS? ) or something.

Originally posted by mikhael
RE: Enterprise
Ain't she pretty? I pulled along side another ship of her class in San Diego. She was riding dry weight and I was aboard a single masted sailboat. The sheer presence of the carrier was overwhelming. They're stunning examples of engineering.

Well the closed-air, diesel-fumed ferry on the way over made everyone sick to their stomachs, but the open air USN skiff on the way back was much better, despite the fact that it rode the chop much closer than the big ferry had. So on the way back, yeah - Enterprise is a beaut.

[Stryke 9]

Shrike: In a beam-and-plasma intensive world, I'd think internal armor would be almost as important as external. After all, something's gonna rupture your hullplates eventually. Whether that means everyone in the ship immediately dies of a combination of explosive decompression and flash-freezing in a rather messy burst of frozen blood splinters or that you have to do a patch-up job when you get back to the local shipyard is entirely a matter of how tough and tight those internal bulkheads and plates are.

[Shrike]

Except that if you skimp on the outer armor to add inner armor, you're leaving all the outer fixtures open to attack, making your ship that much easier to cripple and thus destroy.  Doing that, your opponent can depend on using multiple light hits to crippled your ship and inflict damage, instead of having those shots deflected or absorbed by heavy external armor.  If you have heavy armor, he would have to use heavier and thus less common weaponry to punch through your armor, rendering his light weapons almost useless.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Sandwich

And look in the first picture, towards the back, where the engine section joins the rest of the ship... see those little sections? Emergency bulkheads and airlocks, in case of catastrpohic engine faliure, the whole aft section can be isolated from the rest of the ship and detached via explosive bolts (Explosive Meson Bolts - EMS? ) or something.

You'll want pressure hatches about every 15 to 20 meters, Sandwich (basically about every other frame). During general quarters, all pressure hatches will be dogged tight (some will be dogged tight or dogged soft at all times).  One hull breach shouldn't be able to void more than a few localized spaces.

Also, you'll need more than a simple 1m between decks because of air requirments. On a sealed air system (like any wet navy ship or space ship) you have to be able to partition your ventilation system at least as well as you do your pressure spaces. Further, you've got to pressure seal your power and water runs for the same reason AND you have to be able to partition them as well.

Shrike: you don't have to overarmor the internal spaces, but you do have to make sure that you're protected from secondary explosion type weapons. A wet navy ship has a hard enough time with such weapons.  A void-navy is going to have more problems, because pressure loss is dangerous in more ways than mere waterloading--and far harder to control.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by mikhael
Shrike: you don't have to overarmor the internal spaces, but you do have to make sure that you're protected from secondary explosion type weapons. A wet navy ship has a hard enough time with such weapons.  A void-navy is going to have more problems, because pressure loss is dangerous in more ways than mere waterloading--and far harder to control.

You did specifically mention decks should not be thinner than pressure hulls/armor.  I took that to mean you meant that internal armor should be as heavy as external armor.

[Stryke 9]

See, this is why I always wanted to see an ingame missile with a mining drill warhead. Sure, fine, heavy armor will stop most things from getting in. But what are you gonna do once it DOES get in? I think some antitank missiles work on the same premise, boring into the armor and then blasting the inside.

[Nico]

Btw, FS2 armors must be pretty thick... Have you noticed what we 're thrwoing at them? Of course the Fenris is the weakest warship of the series, but just take the orion, ok, it's not a fenris, it's a destroyer, it's big , blablabla. Throw one of those antimater ( ANTIMATER FOR PETE'S SAKE!!!! ) bombs to it. The thing barely suffered. There must be more to it than special alloys...
In OTT I decided to make up some fluff to explain why a 30 meters long antimatter bomb can't destroy a punny 2 km long ship, when it could most likely blast Jupiter and all the surrounding area to hell along with it in real life.
Really, too bad the debris maps are not specifically drawn, would be a good occasion to see inside the ship ( think Starship trooper when the Roger Young is cut in half ).

[Black Wolf]

Are you going to take into account the windows on the skin when you make this?

Hmmm - windows. They'd make a reasonably open, and obvious weak point on any armour...

[Nico]

Originally posted by Black Wolf
Are you going to take into account the windows on the skin when you make this?

Hmmm - windows. They'd make a reasonably open, and obvious weak point on any armour...

they're probably 1 meter thick windows, and not glass anyway. maybe it's diamond windows

[Styxx]

Pretty cool stuff up to now, but I wouldn't have my hopes up on a FPS level for something like this. Take the FS FPS project, for example, which is completely dead.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Styxx
Pretty cool stuff up to now, but I wouldn't have my hopes up on a FPS level for something like this. Take the FS FPS project, for example, which is completely dead.

btw, you see how huge a fenris would be a a FPS level? never wondered  how ridiculous it was in dark Forces when you where in the SSD Excelssior at the end? and you could recognize the shap on the map :/ that SSD was smaller than a corellian corvette