[arthur_tuxedo]

Originally posted by hobnob1978


Almond hard????

I suppose they are hard buggers. How about hazlenut hard?

I once tried to crack one with nut crackers and failed miserably. the bugger just would not break. even tried a hammer on it (tough little B***)

Personally I thought the Sathanas and the Collossus were as big as ships could go. I mean someone has pointed out the physics problems. What about power? Not the generation but to supply it? The level of boosting, even if it was liquid plasma based, would be obscene. Especially when the charge required to power those mega turret beams must be huge.
I`d hate to see the capacitance charge batteries for that thing.

Anything larger really is beginning to verge on the silly. Thats why i hate the death star and death star2 from SW. Just plainly unbelivable.

Lucifer= belivable, Collossus= believable (just), sathanas=belivable (with some imagination)

I know it`s fiction and a computer game but people eventually just go "Nah, not possible"

How can you hate the Death Stars?  The models were fantastic (better than the CGI schlock Lucasfilm relies on now), and the second one didn't have an Achilles' heel like the first (if they had actually finished it, it would have been unstoppable).

From a realism standpoint, you have to understand that this is Star Wars we're talking about and realize the difference between it and, say Freespace.  Sure, the capability to build 160 km diameter battlestation which can unleash 1 ^ 38 joule blasts and accelerate at 10s of Gs is unfathomable even in our wildest dreams, but this is a galaxy that has had hyperspace travel for 25,000 years and has around 20 million inhabited planets, some covered in skycrapers (implying population in the trillions).  It takes more suspension of disbelief to accept wormholes that can transport ships, sound (and sonic weapons in some sci-fi) in space, banking and top speeds in space.

Unlike these concepts, the Death Star merely requires the existance of things we've never seen before (hyperspace, uber-strong polymers and ceramics, power generation more energetic than matter/antimatter).  Sure, it's far-fetched, but it doesn't require us to accept things we know to be impossible.

[karajorma]

I have no problem in believing in the big super juggernauts. I just think that they aren`t much fun to play with.

[FreeTerran]

Want you control a super juggernaut ?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Free Terran
Want you control a super juggernaut ?

Of couse not. What I mean is that a mission with a super juggernaut is rarely that much fun.

It's just BoE syndrome but instead of lots of ships and nothing you do has an effect you`ve got a case where you`ve got one or two enormous ships and nothing you do has an effect.

[FreeTerran]

They must we have many many destroyers to destroy the super juggernaut.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Free Terran
They must we have many many destroyers to destroy the super juggernaut.

Which solves BoE syndrome... how? If anything, it'd contribute to it. One thing I do dislike about super juggernauts is the fact that so far I have seen two strategies to be used asgainst them - another Superjug, or a bigger bomber, and neither of these actually makes the Super Juggernaut any different to a normal jug, or even a destroyer. Super Juggs would be acceptable (barely - there's stll the realism factor to consider) if the campaign Designers were at least inventive in finding ways to kill them - ie. weak spot exploitation.

Still don't like them though. As far as I'm concerned, a Fleet should really be made up of lots of cruisers of various roles(escort, attack, strike), Plenty of 'Vettes, arranged around a very small number of destroyers. Anything bigger just seems - pointless and unrealistic really. If it hadn't been a game, and/or if GTVA command had been sensible, they could have taken out the First Sath without the Collosus - bombing runs to disable it, rear disarmament, then hit it from behind with a Deimoses/Leviathan task force, supplemented by heavy bombers and with plenty of fighter cover. You really didn't even need a destroyer to do it, let alone a Juggernaut.

[FreeTerran]

The bomber must be [SIZE=12]very big[/SIZE]

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Free Terran
The bomber must be [SIZE=12]very big[/SIZE]

So what? They build a bigger Jugg, you build a bigger bomber? At what point does this simply become ridiculous? Some of the inferno bombers are the size of Cruisers - this is, in my opinion anyway, too big. The bigger they are, the slower, less maneuverable, more expensive and easily destroyed. Ultimately, there's going to be a more efficient way to kill things - for example - what stops capship grade beams being mounted on bombers? Probably the size of the powersource. Once you get to cruiser size though, it'd probably end up being more efficient to simply mount a beam on there, convert the ordionance space into engine space, and have yourself a gunboat. Finally, in the sense of gameplay, how does blow up a massive ship with a massive bomber really differ from blow up a big ship (Ravanna) with a big Bomber (Boanerges)? What's the real difference? Simple answer - there is none.

[FreeTerran]

How long must the bomber be ?

[Star Dragon]

I love flying a fighter but my heart goes equally to the Super Juggernaught!

   It started with Star Blazers (one ship verses a fleet)...

  Then grew with Battle Star Galactica (comparable to the Colossus Methinks due to number of fighters it could launch). One ship against a galactic Empire!

  Finally it culminated with Robotech (all 3 series) and Macross 7 (one ubership with a population inside it not just of military but of civillians. Like a colony from Gundam but can kick a$$ on its own)...

  Hehe  SDF-4 is comparable to the new icanus. Now I just need to arm the sucker.

  Point is I love huge ships that are self sufficent. Meaning they are a fleet unto themselves. Decks for machine shops and  manufacturing. Hangars for fighters/bombers/mechs, entertainment centers for the crew. Training centers for the military. The whole ball of wax. For some reason although I love fighters and mecha, I'll always love the Juggie also (if it is designed well and has a purpose!). Everything else just falls into second place for me.

BTW: If you're afraid of a Juggernaught call on Alpha1. He'll make the problem go away

[FreeTerran]

I think the bomber must be over 150 m with a very high payload or ?

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by GalacticEmperor

Oh, and each blast from a Huge laser turret should do as much damage as a Cyclops.

That's why I made Ion Cannons!

And I love huge ships too. Carriers for fighter power and internal "decoration", battleships for raw firepower!
Note that everything has it's limits.....

[KillaVirus]

my thought....... bigger is not just better...... i dont think that it is bad to have one capital ship ..... but you must be able to destroy it with your fighter and bomber squads. .... i thought freespace is a space shooting game and not a "look how they blast each other" game.... thats my thought

.... bigger ships .... bigger fighters ...... why dont we put a drive on our planet and attack the enemys?

[FreeTerran]

hmm.....Can the planet have a subspace engine ?

[Woomeister]

Originally posted by Black Wolf
Finally, in the sense of gameplay, how does blow up a massive ship with a massive bomber really differ from blow up a big ship (Ravanna) with a big Bomber (Boanerges)? What's the real difference? Simple answer - there is none

Simple, a fighter that escorts you has to really take care of the enemy fighters that will try to intercept you, the bigger the bomber, the harder its supposed to be to defend against them. Fighters could also do damage to a Ravana thus helping you to destroy it, they can't really against larger ships. This puts the player in more danger and gives them more of a job to do.

Originally posted by Black Wolf
Some of the inferno bombers are the size of Cruisers - this is, in my opinion anyway, too big.

Once again people make up facts about my campaign

Last time I checked I didn't have a 300m long bomber. BWO has a larger bomber than what we do, but you complain about the size of ours?

Originally posted by karajorma
What I mean is that a mission with a super juggernaut is rarely that much fun.

I guess you've played tons of missions that uses them then?

A mission with an SJ can be just as fun as a mission with Corvettes or with a bunch cargo containers. It depends on how well the mission designers make the mission.


Oh in case anyone really wants to know, my favourite FS2 ship is the fenris

Though my fav class is bomber

[KillaVirus]

but isn´t it a bit stupid to have always just bigger ships? why dont we put all our enginers together and develop a better fenris  wich has a better armor so that it is nearly indestrucible or why dont we develoop a reflection field wich will throw back laser shots (i know i just played to much moo2)

[Woomeister]

Originally posted by KillaVirus
but isn´t it a bit stupid to have always just bigger ships? why dont we put all our enginers together and develop a better fenris  wich has a better armor so that it is nearly indestrucible or why dont we develoop a reflection field wich will throw back laser shots (i know i just played to much moo2)

Well I don't just have larger ships myself. I do have 11 different types of Corvette in my campaign. Actually the most common ship type in my GTVA fleet is the Corvette.

I just hate how people think I'll have a Gargant in every mission. We haven't even used it yet.

[KillaVirus]

i dont think of a gargant in every mission but how should it go ? should the ships get bigger and bigger?  you got a gargant of 36 km right?
well ...... i guess some noobs are already workin on 50km ships or stuff like that i just thought why dont make ships smaller?
i know that you want to put the gargant in less then 5 missions right? well thats good ....

hmmm but i cant understand why some guys want it bigger and bigger ....... the shipyards of the future must be as big as planets and where the hell should the races get the resources from? the shivans must have an impossible empire if the collossus was the best what the vasudans and the terrans could have built ..... the sathanas was bigger and it were so many of them ..... they need more then 20 systems or?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Woomeister
I guess you've played tons of missions that uses them then?

A mission with an SJ can be just as fun as a mission with Corvettes or with a bunch cargo containers. It depends on how well the mission designers make the mission.

Stand down Pilot! You may not have noticed that in an earlier post (maybe not on this thread) I said that I believed that the Inferno team had the skill to pull off a campaign with juggernauts and super juggernauts in it.
 That's why I said rarely rather than never.

Let me put it this way though. If a newbie comes onto the board and announces that he is making a new campaign featuring a new colossus and saths he is generally met with groans. Why? Cause it's likely that his campaign won`t be any fun to play. The player will be left sitting around doing nothing important while another super ship takes out the first one.

FS2 did supercaps correctly on the most part. I never was left feeling that I was superfluous to the storyline. I always felt I was doing something in almost every mission (although High Noon does get kind of boring once you`ve disabled all 4 cannons on the sath).

I`m not against big ships (My own TMA features a new Juggernaut). I just don`t like the crimes against gameplay some designers commit with them.

[FreeTerran]

Originally posted by KillaVirus
i dont think of a gargant in every mission but how should it go ? should the ships get bigger and bigger?  you got a gargant of 36 km right?
well ...... i guess some noobs are already workin on 50km ships or stuff like that i just thought why dont make ships smaller?
i know that you want to put the gargant in less then 5 missions right? well thats good ....

hmmm but i cant understand why some guys want it bigger and bigger ....... the shipyards of the future must be as big as planets and where the hell should the races get the resources from? the shivans must have an impossible empire if the collossus was the best what the vasudans and the terrans could have built ..... the sathanas was bigger and it were so many of them ..... they need more then 20 systems or?

OH Yap they need many more systems and slaves.