[vyper]

Freedom, is a powerful motivation in any circumstance. I think the concept of such subjugation is your downfall Rampage.

Also, this thread should not close because you say so. No one has been offended, we are all just debating.

[Flipside]

Ak! Now I'm at it

I think we would fare a lot better if we stuck to evolutionism and creationism, and left the fine details of various religions alone?
Whether you believe the world is 4000 years old or several million more, and what evidence do you have to support it, that is the point of this debate?

Peace

Flipside

[Styxx]

No reason to close this (yet). Go on, go on...

[Flipside]

Well, at least let me get my asbestos suit on

Flipside

[Goober5000]

Rampage, I'd like to politely disagree with you on some points...

By being on this planet for 38 years, I can conclude that faith in Jesus is blind.  If it weren't blind, we would be so objective that He wouldn't be able to lead us.  Jesus is the Father who leads his son blindfolded to a surprise.  Faith in Christ means 100% subjugation!

If you're referring to "blind" in the sense of not knowing the future, I agree, but you're referring to interpretation, I disagree - more on that in a bit.  To digress for a moment, Jesus knew what he was in for all along.  He struggled with it, certainly, but he knew what his purpose on Earth was.  On the other hand, humans, being human, need to walk in faith, because they'd probably balk if they knew what they would face farther down the line.  Think of what the Twelve might have done or thought at the beginning if they knew what they were getting into. A mountain looks imposing when seen whole, but you can climb it eventually simply by taking it one step at a time.

The same thing goes with the Bible.  One must see through its "paradoxes" and understand it at face value because we are not given the right to interpret it.  (Of course, symbolism is used quite oftenly in the Bible and we should see them symbolically, not at face value.)

But we are called to love God with all our soul and all our strength and all our heart and all our mind.  I think that studying and interpreting the Bible is a wonderful way to worship God with our mind.  Read Acts 17:11, for example.  And keep in mind that God is the author of creation as well as the Bible, so they will never be in conflict.  If they seem to be, then we have to recheck our understanding of one or the other.

We are not God and never will be.  Thus, we must debase ourselved to absolute trust in the Father and absolute servitude of the Father.

This shouldn't mean we should strive to be puppets.  Ideally, we should be in harmonious agreement and submission to God at all times, but I think God is pleased when we study the Bible and study the universe with the motivation of finding out more about God.  We can't know everything God knows, but we can make the most of what we do know.

[redsniper]

Originally posted by Zeronet:
The Bible is the truth yes, there no doubting that in my opinion. Its just not the literal truth, nor Gods exact words(unlike the Koran, which muslims believe is all Gods words), it teaches the message as a parable of sorts. Stories written so that they could be understood at the time, as evidently, people did not know about such things as space, the stars etc, so the story of creation had to been applicable to the times and it does that. It quite clearly, wraps up a few billion years of developed into a easy to understand allegory of the creation of the universe.

I think you hit the nail on the head, dude.

[diamondgeezer]

See, that sounds to me like you're just making up any old **** to make your beliefs sound less outmoded. No offence.

[EDIt] Ye gods, I'm turning in to an0n in my old age

[Ace]

Originally posted by Goober5000
But we are called to love God with all our soul and all our strength and all our heart and all our mind.  I think that studying and interpreting the Bible is a wonderful way to worship God with our mind.  Read Acts 17:11, for example.  And keep in mind that God is the author of creation as well as the Bible, so they will never be in conflict.  If they seem to be, then we have to recheck our understanding of one or the other.

To take a more "evil liberal Californian movie star who must die!!!!" view of things.

Everything in the universe, all religions, sciencies, etc. are created so that people can understand themselves and their relationship with existance. There is no true right or wrong path, but making existance better for your fellows both past, present, and future is something that any reasonable person would do.

You cannot shield yourself with golden lies, or hide due to fear, you must experience as much as possible and understand as many view points as possible in order to understand creation in your own way and thus be closer to its creator.

Hiding behind one faith or "truth" is only cheating yourself of what you can become, of what you could do in the name of being alive, or in the name of others.

Everyone needs to constantly recheck their reality based on what they have done.

Christ, Bhudda, Moses, and Mohammad are all part of the same thing, you cannot limit yourself or allow yourself to be blinded and perverted by not allowing yourself to experience them as a whole.

To put it this way: If got created the entire universe and placed everything here with a reason and a purpose, do you truly believe that you exist to redeem 90% of the world? Or that the 90% of the world that does not share your view has something that can contribute to you?

If you believe that you must go on a crusade and defeat everyone's ideals, you are just as bad as someone who commits murder. Destroying a history and culture destroys the cumulative works of people over thousands of years.

If murder is a sin, then ignoring or believing that those who are different then you are wrong and must be destroyed is an even greater sin.

[diamondgeezer]

That's all well and good, but as Einstein said "the tyranny of the ignorant is assured for all time"

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Ace
...

I have no idea what you're talking about in most of this.  What is this, some bizzare form of relativistic humanism?

Hiding behind one faith or "truth" is only cheating yourself of what you can become, of what you could do in the name of being alive, or in the name of others.

If you have two (or more) different mutually exclusive viewpoints, they cannot all be true.  Either one is true and the rest are false, or they are all false.  If you are convinced what you know is the truth, why shouldn't you pursue it?

If you believe that you must go on a crusade and defeat everyone's ideals, you are just as bad as someone who commits murder. Destroying a history and culture destroys the cumulative works of people over thousands of years.

Yes, destroying an entire culture is tragic.  But that's not what Christianity is doing - although some Christians, through mistake or even maliciousness, have done this.  The core Christian message is compatible with all cultures.  It has to be, since God wrote it.

[TheCelestialOne]

I find religions scary as hell... Devoting your life to a "god" or "saviour"

Again:

I'm not gonna devote my life to anyone but myself. Selfish? Perhaps, but in the end you die and your life is over. Afterlife or no, I'm going to make the most of of this life for myself and not for some "god".

I don't believe in any salvation or heaven or any of that crap. IMO its just something to "soften" you up and make life easier to deal with. But it also shields you from seeing the truth as it becomes an excuse for many things. I'd rather live life the hard way then in ignorance.

However, I will not stop or do anything to hold anyone away from their beliefs. I respect those who believe and I will respect their belief systems.

(As long as they don't try to force it on me cause then I get REALLY pissed

*has some Jehova's gagged and tied down in the basement for torture*)

[Ace]

Originally posted by Goober5000


I have no idea what you're talking about in most of this.  What is this, some bizzare form of relativistic humanism?



If you have two (or more) different mutually exclusive viewpoints, they cannot all be true.  Either one is true and the rest are false, or they are all false.  If you are convinced what you know is the truth, why shouldn't you pursue it?



Yes, destroying an entire culture is tragic.  But that's not what Christianity is doing - although some Christians, through mistake or even maliciousness, have done this.  The core Christian message is compatible with all cultures.  It has to be, since God wrote it.

...and god jeudaism, islam, and every other religion under the sun in one way shape or form or another.

So no core message of any religion or philosiphy used by a reasonable person in truth contradicts.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Ace
So no core message of any religion or philosiphy used by a reasonable person in truth contradicts.

You must not pay close attention to them, then.  Here's just one example: Hindus believe that a person experiences many reincarnations which further their soul toward some ultimate purpose.  Christians believe that you only get one chance at life, and when you die, that's it.  They can't both be right.

[Knight Templar]

but they can both be wrong.




.... or can they?

[Ace]

Originally posted by Goober5000




You must not pay close attention to them, then.  Here's just one example: Hindus believe that a person experiences many reincarnations which further their soul toward some ultimate purpose.  Christians believe that you only get one chance at life, and when you die, that's it.  They can't both be right.

You need to look past literal definitions

[TheCelestialOne]

Originally posted by Goober5000
Christians believe that you only get one chance at life, and when you die, that's it.

No, they believe in an afterlife. Wether it be in Hell or Heaven, there is a second life according to Christians.

But I do believe when you die, thats it. No more. You are done for. Buried beneath a patch of grass. A pile of dust. No more. Gone. DEAD.

[Knight Templar]

Bah! Heathen? I saw he's just a grade-a pessimist! Burn him at the stake boys!

[diamondgeezer]

VBBQ?

[TheCelestialOne]

Originally posted by Knight Templar
Bah! Heathen? I saw he's just a grade-a pessimist! Burn him at the stake boys!

Pessimist? I'm quite happy with one life. If I get the most out of this life I don't need no afterlife or some reincarnation.

[Top Gun]

Kent Hovind (The person that runs the deeply silly site that Hotsnoj is rather fond of) is unable to give you your money anyway. He declared himself bankrupt to avoid paying taxes ages ago, as he believes that taxes are a communist concept and make the baby Jesus cry. (P.S. James Randi's million has been independently verified many times as accessable.)
 
Hovind (and numerous morons which believe him) is one of the more entertaining crank pots on the internet and really quite harmless (even other young earthers think he's insane). He also has no money to be able to attempt to thrust his lunacy on anyone but a small minority of very gullible people. So the best solution to his impervious stance towards reason and logic is to just point and laugh. The people that we should be worried about are those who sit on schoolboards, major organised religions and extremely wealthy and influential televangelist charletans.