Author Topic: Hey all you evolutionists  (Read 11212 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

And with that, would someone please close this thread.  All points have been made.
Can the reason that we fear the unknown be that we know ourselves too well?       -The Outer Limits

<*)}}}><  HAPPY FISHIE!!

 

Offline Stryke 9

  • Village Person
    Reset count: 4
  • 211
All points on the generalized subject of the nature of religion, as well as the theory of evolution, science in general, and philosophy/theology have been made? Well hee yaw, guess that means that we humans never have to think again, eh? Everything's already been done, we not only have a complete understanding of the Universe but of all possible, fictitious, or erroneous Universes, there's nothing left for mankind to do but lay down and die!

I'd call you a putz, but that'd be misinterpreted as flaming and hence be liable to get you what you want. Putz.


Anyway. I could take potshots at the Bible all day long, and the modern (typically fundie) interpretation yet longer. Actually, since its flaws are well-documented, it'd really add up to about a minute of searching, copying, and pasting. But that's besides the point. The Bible is an excellent framework on which to found religion and/or moral codes, a good history, and an interesting (if dry and abstruse) read. You just have to keep in mind that, even if one is to take it as literally God's word and his Son's (which Jesus seems to dispute in the literal sense, actually, though it may be an error in translation), it has been passed down verbally, modified, censored (by the very bodies extant to preserve it, no less), and distorted in meaning so that the modern form is the literary equivalent of a static-ridden broadcast. Which is simultaneously picking up signals from two or three other bands, which are at times all but indistinguishable from the desired message. The problem then is, interpretation's basically in the eye of the beholder. Jerry Fallwell can read the New Testament and find his message of hate there, plain as day, and I can do the same and find the record of what amounts to recorded history's first great radical libertarian, just as clearly. His will always look like utterly contrived **** to me, and vice versa, but I'll take his word for it that that's what he sees. And there's the story of religion, and why it's so bleeding hard to convince the born-agains of anything- NOTHING can be proven or disproven incontrovertibly if one's sole common "empirical" knowledge is contained in the Bible, because it means completely different things depending on one's preconceptions.

Now. Taking this concept of all interpretations of the Bible being equally apparent to their proponents (with more or less supporting evidence, generally depending on the intellect and passion of the one looking), is it not entirely possible that this was the intention? Assuming God wrote the Bible, could He not have scrambled its message intentionally so that one had to find one's own truth? The old cultural concept of a clear divine edict, the disobedience of which inevitably leads to an extended vacation in Hell, is generally thought to be largely originating from the old authoritarian states and nations, back in the days when the old priests and kings dictated down to the common serf- it was basically a concept developed so that they could say "Do what I say, whether it's blatantly against your own interests or not, or have a naaasty time when my old friend God gets at you when you die. Which will be very shortly if you disobey him, seeing as I, God's messenger, have this big nasty spear." It is not inherent in the Bible itself, with the exception of a few cases such as the Commandments (On most other occasions, God is speaking through a proxy, and it's generally up to the reader to determine whether that proxy has god behind him at all- see the exchange rates on slavery, etc. which most people now take as just historical background). Perhaps the Bible is set up specifically this way so that people can draw their own conclusions, so that beyond a basic core of a few specific morals (violated every day, but that's irrelevant) the practice of religion is sort of a personality litmus test in itself- the way in which people show their true colors, and God's one real test of humanity's faith. Hell, makes more sense than saying that the big mean omniscient being needs to make you fall and scrape your knee to see whether you'll turn around and curse him for it or not.


I think I meant to arrive at a point in there, but it's late, I'm tired, and I'm out of chemicals. Will resume eventually. Demon is a putz.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 01:50:22 am by 262 »

 
Now, I realize that it's late and all that, but that is no reason to break out the flame-thrower and empty a tank.  I knew that this thread would end up a flame war, and thats why I called for it to be closed.  Now that I think about it, every religion thread has ended in a flame war.

I also realize that your character on the board is 'an0n's more reasonable sidekick', but you're not fooling me.  You're not fooling anybody, why keep it up?  Lighten up, you'll enjoy the ride more.

To get back on topic, you may very well be right.  But who is to say who's right and who's wrong?  Why don't we all just drop this stupid argument?  What do we have to gain by fighting over religion?  I know this sounds like one of those "Why can't we all just get along?" rants, but I feel that we would find the answers we seek if we did.
Can the reason that we fear the unknown be that we know ourselves too well?       -The Outer Limits

<*)}}}><  HAPPY FISHIE!!

 

Offline Knight Templar

  • Stealth
  • 212
  • I'm a magic man, I've got magic hands.
Saying he is an0n's side-kick is like saying red tastes like orange. Sure they're the same general shade, but they have different.... tas..erm.. nevermind.. that would sound funny.

point is, why try to stop a perfectly fine debate? Closing the thread would be abruptly chopping off the subject, and as such, I don't think there is any reason to at the moment.
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

Too Long, Didn't Read

 

Offline Black Wolf

  • Twisted Infinities
  • 212
  • Hey! You! Get off-a my cloud!
    • Visit the TI homepage!
Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Saying he is an0n's side-kick is like saying red tastes like orange. Sure they're the same general shade, but they have different.... tas..erm.. nevermind.. that would sound funny.


Oranges I know, but what do Reds taste like?
TWISTED INFINITIES · SECTORGAME· FRONTLINES
Rarely Updated P3D.
Burn the heretic who killed F2S! Burn him, burn him!!- GalEmp

 

Offline Knight Templar

  • Stealth
  • 212
  • I'm a magic man, I've got magic hands.
Kool-Aide.
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

Too Long, Didn't Read

 

Offline Warlock

  • Death Angel
  • 29
    • Holocron Productions
Quote
Originally posted by demon442
I knew that this thread would end up a flame war, and thats why I called for it to be closed.  


Hmmm more like calling for the thread to be closed (which made no flipping sence btw) was the sole reason you got flamed. Noone else was flaming anyone in the thread, yea they may have called some guy that runs some off the wall website a moron a few times,...but for the most part this thread was actually had some interesting reading in it. If it bothers you in some way, simply don't click the link k?
Warlock



DeathAngel Squadron, Forever remembered.


Do or Do Not,..There Is No Spoon

To Fly Exotic Ships, Meet Exotic People, and Kill Them.

We may rise and fall, but in the end
 We meet our fate together

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
you know that was like the most non-flame post Stryke has ever posted, you know that right...
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
Oh, goodie, a religion thread!

I am by nature a stoic, cynic, and general pessimist.  I couldn't give a damn what other people believe, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone.  What I DO object to is the fact that Christianity has caused more wars than ANY OTHER RELIGION!  But that fact has no place here, and belongs in another topic.

The most ridiculous argument in favour of Creation is, 'If God isn't responsible for creating the universe, how come it is so well suited to the evolution of life?'  Well, I'm a supporter of the many-realities theory (which is closer to being a faith than evolution, actually, and there's still a fair amount of evidence for it).  If there's an infinite number of universes out there, and only a very small number have life, then if this universe WASN'T suited to life, we wouldn't be able to ask the question...  And even without the many-realities theory, that answer holds true.  If the miniscule probably of human evolution had not come to pass, we wouldn't be around to ask why it had because it wouldn't have done!

OK, this is philosophy rather than science, but philosophy can venture into places where science cannot go.  And it can fight religion on equal terms, too.  But I'm not going to try and crush religious beliefs because that isn't possible.  Religion is by nature superstition; stemming from ignorance, and adhered to by faith.  Religion is actually a very good thing, as it represents Man's drive to abolish ignorance.  In this way, its roots are the same as the roots of science.  However, while religion is based on faith, science is based on evidence and logic.  Two different kinds of truth, one might say.

Religion is the truth of the soul, but if religion is wrong, there is no soul and the truth of the physical world is dominant.  In which case, science is probably correct and what we know about the universe needs explaining logically.

Science is the truth of the physical world, but if science is wrong, there is no physical world and the truth of the soul is dominant.  In which case, everything is put here by God and fossils don't prove anything.  Nor does evolution.  Or any other human observations.

Philosophy is middle ground: free thought, often outside the known realms of science but not constrained by superstition.  Of course, it isn't as solid as religion or science, so it's certainly not a very good substitute, unless you like uncertainty.



On the whole, I dislike religion.  I like visible or logical proof of a theory, or at least a sense that the theory is 'right'.  I'm inclined to believe that macroevolution is correct, but if strong evidence to the contrary comes up and there is a replacement theory I will accept the new theory.
If ever someone comes up with strong evidence that there is a superbeing, or 'God', that watches over us, and this fits with everything we know about the universe, I will accept it.  Currently, there is no such evidence.  Not a small amount, not very little, but none.
The same goes for the supernatural.  Under controlled tests (don't even think about picking holes in the word 'controlled' as applied to scientific testing) no evidence in favour of ghosts or 'psychic' abilities has been forthcoming.

My own beliefs in the direction of the supernatural and 'life after death' come down to one central idea: there's nothing special about life or conciousness.  Because of the very nature of our conciousness, we cannot analyse it internally.  Externally, it comes down to electrical impulses in brain protein.  When we die, we die.  There is no soul, or anything like that.  We are biological computers.  Nothing more, nothing less.  We can only define conciousness as the ability to behave in a manner that is associated with conciousness.

OK, that's my complete universe view summed up.  I emphasise: it is merely my opinion.  The last paragraph in particular is only my opinion.  It may be proved wrong in the future, in which case I'll change my opinion to match the 'facts'.  And I have no problem with other people's opinions provided they do not affect freedom of others.


As I point out above, science and religion both have reasons for thinking that the other is wrong (the nature of truth), so the battle will never be resolved until we know EVERYTHING about the universe.  So don't bother fighting.  Just wait and see.

Unless you're so insecure in your beliefs that you want to eliminate all competing interpretations of the final evidence...
'And anyway, I agree - no sig images means more post, less pictures. It's annoying to sit through 40 different sigs telling about how cool, deadly, or assassin like a person is.' --Unknown Target

"You know what they say about the simplest solution."
"Bill Gates avoids it at every possible opportunity?"
-- Nuke and Colonol Drekker

 

Offline Pera

  • Tapper
  • 28
I think Zack Parsons said it best at Something Awful
One is never alone with a rubberduck - Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy

The Apocalypse Project

 

Offline vyper

  • 210
  • The Sexy Scotsman
While I do not personally believe in the bible, may I make a point:

The Bible is man's interpretation of God's word, not His word. And as we know, out knowledge and understanding of the world around us influences our interpretation of philosophy etc.

Just a thot.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Goober5000

  • HLP Loremaster
  • 214
    • Goober5000 Productions
Quote
Originally posted by Descenterace
Christianity has caused more wars than ANY OTHER RELIGION!


Howabout Islam?

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
yes more than islam, though it's close, many of the ones involving both were mostly (read more than half, not all of them, yes they started quite a few) started by the christians
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Levyathan

  • That that guy.
  • 27
Hmm. So the side which starts a war is always also the one who causes it? Interesting...

 

Offline Grey Wolf

Realistically, the First Crusade, at least, was entirely the fault of the Vatican.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Crazy_Ivan80

  • Node Warrior
  • 27
Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Realistically, the First Crusade, at least, was entirely the fault of the Vatican.


actually the 1st Crusade was a countermeasure to the succesfull offensive of the Sheldjuk Turks caused by their victory at Manzikert. Even if it was decades later.

And let's not forget that many people seem to ignore the fact that islam had been attacking christian lands since the foundation of islam. North Africa and the Levant were once wholly Christian.
It came from outer space! What? Dunno, but it's going back on the next flight!
Proud member of Hard Light Productions. The last, best hope for Freespace...
:ha:

 

Offline Woolie Wool

  • 211
  • Fire main batteries
I wonder why Christians often like to flaunt their spirituality just like gays like to flaunt their sexuality. No one goes around talking about how he's proud to be straight. I don't put "Look at me! I'm an atheist!" in my sig, nor does anyone mention he's Buddhist or Jewish or whatever.  So you're a Christian. Big ****ing deal.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline Knight Templar

  • Stealth
  • 212
  • I'm a magic man, I've got magic hands.
Actually, that might be interesting.. going around flaunting straightness that is. Although most twits would probably take it as overcompensation.
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

Too Long, Didn't Read

 

Offline Woolie Wool

  • 211
  • Fire main batteries
I've noticed some creationists (none of them here) that say that science is wrong because it doesn't explain the meaning of life or why we're here.

But,
THERE IS NO MEANING TO LIFE AND THERE'S NO "WHY". WE'RE BORN, WE LIVE, WE DIE. THERE IS NO GRAND PLAN FOR THE UNIVERSE.

The idea of a "why" everything exists or a meaning to life is a human fabrication. As the old saying goes, "It just be's that way".
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline phreak

  • Gun Phreak
  • 211
  • -1
KT, wanna organize a straight pride parade?
Offically approved by Ebola Virus Man :wtf:
phreakscp - gtalk
phreak317#7583 - discord