[KillMeNow]

typying etc is a finger control and finger dont seem to suffer the same problems but moving your hands well thats where problems start as i said its do able but not exactly intuative

now your legs well you cant really compare its not a complex motion

using 2 joysticks i think would work best if you switch over to a more basic system of control like a tank rather than controling your heading and bank you would control the thursters more directly

both forward to go striaght foawrd  both back and you go back - both to the same side you roll  both in  strafe up or somethign to that effect then for you mvoes both joystick get equal input for the vast majority of controls  however i dont think this would be great system for a fighter anyway

no iu'd defaintly just go with standard flight controls with an added hatch switch its the simplest and most reliable solution

as for all teh buttons on the throttle yeah all good stuff weapons controls thats where i would put them

as for your 7 axis control dont be absurd -at most a joystick can only control 3 axis's pitch bank and yaw and thats asume you put yaw on the stick byt adding a twist fuction which i think a mistake in teh extremewould make it diffcult to condinate you banking and  apply yaw at the same time or pitch for that matter

anyway even assume you have that thats 3 axis control where the hell are you gonna get another 4 axis's from that joystick without having to reprogram it for the next axis and forgetting about the normal ones - nope cant work

and to top it off planes only have your 3 controls bank pitch and yaw so ther would seem little point in ahve controls for anything else

as for hatch switch i have no idea how many are of the f16 but 5 seems abit exsesive msot fighters have 2  and in part because of that i suggested usinga hatch switch as the strafing controls  since its proven you can use a hatch swithc easily while control the aircrafts normal flight controls

[mikhael]

Originally posted by KillMeNow

now your legs well you cant really compare its not a complex motion

You've obviously never tried to build a walker out of legos or the like. walking and running are very complex motions. Far more than you might think. That's why Sony's walking/dancing/ running robots are such marvels.

as for your 7 axis control dont be absurd -at most a joystick can only control 3 axis's pitch bank and yaw and thats asume you put yaw on the stick byt adding a twist fuction which i think a mistake in teh extremewould make it diffcult to condinate you banking and  apply yaw at the same time or pitch for that matter

I'm not being absurd. In an F16 cockpit there are no less than TEN axes. Between the stick and throttle there are SEVEN. I will list all the stick and throttle axes. Keep in mind this is not guess work, this is the facts of piloting a real fighter jet.
1. Joystick X
2. Joystick Y
3. Throttle
4. Antenna Knob
5. Range Knob
6. Microstick/Ministick X
7. Microstick/Ministick Y

Additionally, in the F16, on the rudders there are three axes.
1. Rudder
2. Left Toestop
3. Right Toestop

anyway even assume you have that thats 3 axis control where the hell are you gonna get another 4 axis's from that joystick without having to reprogram it for the next axis and forgetting about the normal ones - nope cant work

See above.

as for hatch switch i have no idea how many are of the f16 but 5 seems abit exsesive msot fighters have 2  and in part because of that i suggested usinga hatch switch as the strafing controls  since its proven you can use a hatch swithc easily while control the aircrafts normal flight controls

See, you might think its excessive but a quick trip to any website that shows the cockpit of an F16 will reveal four hats on the stick and one on the throttle.

Now, let me explain this a little more clearly: I'm not marvel. I work all of the controls listed above ROUTINELY when playing any space or flight combat sim. It is just like playing an instrument, driving or typing. Its easy with minimal effort.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Flaser
Saitek Cyborg is your friend.

I have one now.... 'cept i'm used to a right handed one after 8 years or so with a wingman (no gameport, so had to dump it).

Thing is that 's a lot lighter - there's less tenstion, it's not as heavy at the base as I'd like and the trigger doesn;t have as much give as I'd like.

Force feedback kicks arse, though

[KillMeNow]

ok first up  the stick has 2 axis's the others are switchs - i wouldn't even classify the throttle as an control axis and teh rudders certaly aren't althoguh the do controla  movement axis the controsl are jstu pedals

as you say the antenas etc they are nobs basically switches and buttons - not axis's

as for any micro stick they aren't for controling the palens movement i bet they will be for some sort of control of the stores or comincatiosn or somethign - the flight controls are

pitch and bank - the main control colum
yaw - the rudder pedals
Power -  the throttle

now i dont knwo if i had a game set up with 2 proper joysticks one for 3d strafing one for pitch and bank it might work i guess would ahve to test it though as i'm still no convinced and as for the yaw action thats should efaintly be pedals

now with 2 ahdns onn sticks where you gonna put the throtlle your asking well if you got to have 22 sticks i would put it on the pedals too but somewhat differnt impemnntation

in planes today you have toe brakes -  basically push down with your toes not your feet and it applys the wheel breaks but this same system could be used for turning and deceleration in space with thruster commands

adm,itly it takes a little while tog et used to sterring with your feet =) my first time taxiing a plane was quite bad but you do get used to it pretty quick so that hands deceleration acceration i would go for a normal pushing down on teh pedals just like yaw really when you push down one it burns on one side to produce yaw so if you push down on both you get thrust on both sides and get acceration break one side and acceration the other side and you got a fast on the spot spin on your yaw axis

i recently saw a car that used a siumilar system had the break and accerator on teh same pedal pushing down noramlly was acceration push down slightly differnetly and you got a breaking action - nor sure if it wa s toe break like planes or not though

anyway however i arrange the controls i wouldn't mess the the basics taht are in plaens today they work well somethign i can attest to i can fly a plane nothign big mind you or powerful jsut a little single engine pa 28 warrior but the control worked nicely as they are why mess with what you know and love?

[J3Vr6]

Wow, can this thread be any more derailed from Nico's art?

Nico, great work.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by KillMeNow
ok first up  the stick has 2 axis's the others are switchs - i wouldn't even classify the throttle as an control axis and teh rudders certaly aren't althoguh the do controla  movement axis the controsl are jstu pedals

Pedals produce an analog feedback curve. That makes them an axis. Toe stops produce an analog feedback curve. That makes them an axis. Rotary controls produce an analog feedback curve. That makes them an axis. Stick and throttle deflection produce an analog feedback curve. That makes them an axis. The microstick produces an analog feedback curve. That makes it an axis.

No matter how you cut it, that's ten axes and that's ten analog feedback curves to deal with. You're not spinning the rotaries all the time, but you are working three axes with your feet, two with your right hand, and three with your left. Quit underestimating the human ability to learn new skills and adapt. It can, and is, done.

as for any micro stick they aren't for controling the palens movement i bet they will be for some sort of control of the stores or comincatiosn or somethign - the flight controls are

The microstick functions as a mouse, which is--surprise--X and Y axes.

[Unknown Target]

Just to interject here: the micro sticks control weaponry, such as target locking, cycling, selecting, that sort of stuff

[KillMeNow]

your being absurd -  analog feed back curves my ass while they may technically rotate around an axis that doesn't make them an axis control - there is a very big difference - although in the case of the pedals they are also an axis control but at its most basic level all you worry about while flying is that left foot yaws lef right foot yaws right

as for the throttle thats  acually a linear analog input next you'll be telling me its moving along an axis though at which point you need to step back and take your hands away from teh 3d package its a vector in teh real world lol

your micro stick is effectively an analog hatch switch and i have freely acknowlodged the use of hatch switches is quite natural for what ever reason similarly we can type on a keyboards but striangly i bet it would be more difficult to ytpe trying to hit 2 keys at the same time rather than one after the other

so in your average plane you have 3 axis controls only 2 of which are using multi axis control input device ( joystick ) the other the rudders are single axis witha  linear prgoression ie the reationaship between oen pedal and the otehr is linear

by linear i am meaning one is up the other is down etc and when one is at neutral the other is netral and its a linear graph between them

throttle is a linear analoge input slider even if the acual handle rotates around around axis the basic idea is one end of the slider you have full throttle the other end you have idle the goign up and round can be an incedental axis if you really want ones thats there but you dont acknologe

as for the micro stick i bet its not offen used while in teh middle of intracate mauverses something you use in calm moments to set things up etc

so remove all teh weaposn **** etc and what you got throttle ( not an axis) rudders control an axis but not an controled through an axis unless they are on a direct pivot and wire system not many planes are these days and your main 2 axis control joy stick or control collum

everything else in a modern fighter is to do with weapons ful etc management not controling teh aircrafts flight

so for you 7 or 10 axis control system pah last time i checked the world exisited in a 3 dimesional world ( not including time ) so when we aquire 4 more physical dimesions or if your feeling particlarily ambious 7 more i'll look you up on how to contrucka  control system for my latest aircraft designs

[Unknown Target]

KMN, just cause YOU can't use 2 joysticks, doesn't mean everyone else can't

[KillMeNow]

i'm not saying i cant use them or that noone can - i jsut think it would be more ackward that using one

[Unknown Target]

To you. To most other people it's quite easy and natural. Think about it:  it's almost like a helicopter control stick and cyclic (throttle). You don't try to duplicate your movements on the cyclic with your movements on the stick, do you?

[Nico]

Mike, give up, it's just I asked KMN to make a ship or two for me, and he isn't happy with the fact I didn't like the rotating thruster things on it ( it looks cool, I had that before too on my Havoc, but they make little sense ).
Oh, and I can use two sticks at the same time, for the simple reason I don't think about how I should move my hands, but how the ship would move. The brains just follow and the hands behacve just fine, coz it's a natural feeling process.

And I thought that thread would disappear in the depths of the forum coz I was away
Mike, I'll make an avi showing the morphers in action for you, coz I'm a nice guy ( or maybe I won't, coz I'm a lazy guy ).

[mikhael]

Because you request it, Venom, I'll give up (even though KMN is dead wrong ).

I'm interested to see how those morphers work in action. I don't know if you realize it, but the morph layout you described is exactly the way Iwar2 handles animation channels for thrusters and stuff. I think I might be able to set up what you described in lightwave using control nulls, but I'm not sure how yet.

[Nico]

Well, I have a couple japanese DVD describing morph targets in LW, so I could get a quick look at it, but if you know how to create facial expressions for a character, well, you'll know how to make those, coz it's the exact same.
I still can't realise I got such a good idea, for once...

[Nico]

A Grizzli ( ex Sabre, and I can't translate to russian since all translators give me a cyrillic translation ) acts as a decoy for a gray Delta as a Wraith slips behing it, unnoticed, to give the killing blow.

oh, also:

The OuterSpace logo. I went for an old school design coz:
1) I like those
2) the new, glowy titles are overused these days.
3) plain white ones are boring

[Nico]

The bump map for the top of the ship is almost done... Darn, if I could work on it during the week, it would be done already and I could start the next ship... it feels like my project won't be completed this year
ah, and I was fed up with the helmet hovering above the seat, so I put my marine in there

[aldo_14]

Y'know, that reminds me a LOT of a Blackbird spy place.  In a good way, may i add.

[Nico]

Thanks
Could an admin rename this thread to "OuterSpace dev thread"?

Ok, I'll write down some background stuff, for people who are interested to know more about the OuterSpace universe:

OS is set in an alternative world. Basically, it splits from real world around 1920, but what is changed between 1920 and 1999 is not known from commoners, so basically up till 1999, the world is the same for normal people. I'm using a lot of facts that could happen, and have made them already happen: the Big One ( the infamous Frisco giant hearthquake , for exemple). The world has gone though various planet scale catastrophes during the 1999->2004 period, inducing major economical, political and technological changes. All that is complicated and tedious, so I'll spare you with the details. One of the reasons is that it makes things simpler for me.
Fact1: the first alien species we ( humans ) meet are the Gray. They show up around 1920, but public is not aware of it. They're involved in WW2, they initiate the nazi party, and help them during the war with technolical advances ( carefully chosen tech, tho ). They don't play a big part for reasons I won't disclose here, but basically, their efforts are wasted because of bigger matters that leads them to leave matters on Earth. The aim was to weaken Earth ( for various reasons, even with WW2 tech, Earth would be difficult to overcome ). It worked more or less, but they are not able to take advantage of the situation.
Starting from 1980, the grays come back to Earth, abducting people ( they need them for one single reason I won't disclose, but it's nothing biggy to know ). They're constantly repelled thanks to the Black Shield operation conducted by all the major industrial countries. The Black Shield Operation organisation is disolved in the 90's when the Grays disappears again.
Mars is colonized around 2040, and becomes independant in 2054 after a small war resulting from facts you needn't know for now ( ).
The Vodian show up in 2071, after they leave their home system wasted by the Mycoids. The Grays, in the same situation, follows and harass them. first contact went very wrong, resulting in a very short war ( less than a couple weeks ). Vodians and Humans ally to get rid of the Grays as fast as possible because the Mycoids are due to come soon, and the Humans refuses to leave Sol as the Vodians suggested. The Vodians decide to stand with the Humans, considering the conbined forces could stop the invasion swarm.
What follows is not for you to know yet

[icespeed]

why do the humans refuse to leave sol? humans tend to be colonisers... don't they?

what sort of aliens are the aliens? like, humans are carbon-based lifeforms... so these are...? and they sound waaaaaaay more advanced than humans... hm... where're they from?

the purple glowing in the grizzly-delta-wraith pic is pretty.

[Nico]

Humans like to keep their stuff. You know, the classical scifi deal "no other species fight like humans when they're on the verge of exctinction" thinguy. Besides, I don't think it would be technocally possible, anyway: by that time, they don't have such a large fleet that they could save more than 1/100 of all mankind, they don't have FTL stuff ( the Vodians would give them theirs, but adapting them to terran ships, building them, etc, would be too long ). And they don't want Earth and Mars to be destroyed, that's their only inhabited planets ( since they never left Sol anyway ).

The aliens are all carbon-based. The grays are way more advanced than the Vodians and Terrans. The Vodians are at the same technological level, but they followed a different evolution, they were already a space faring species by then ( but didn't have FTL stuff either ). A vodian ship looks more hightech than a terran ship, but in fact it is at the same level, it just works differently. For exemple, Vodians don't know powder, and Grays never considered it would be useful to them ( they know about it, tho, coz they've seen it on Earth ). Vodians don't use metal either, btw, they use some kind of resin they take from the trees hat grow on their planet. The grays use some odd plastic. Both the grays and Vodians use energy weapons and shields, which makes them more balanced against each other. Shields can't be adapted on Terran ships because they're made with metal.
shields are very effective against energy based weapons, but absolutely useless against projectiles that will simply go through them. Ammo based weapons are also more efficent against Vodians and Gray ships, coz they break the resin/plastic, creating large hull breaches, with big hull chunks flying away. Energy weapons, on the other hand, melt metal like there's no tommorrow, so Terran ships are quite fragile to them. The grays use antigrav tech, while the Vodians use grav tech ( works the other way around, one pushes, the other one pulls ). The Vodian grav wells have some drawbacks, for exemple they generates massive amounts of heat.
The Mycoids don't really use technology, but they can learn from it and understand it. They just need the concepts, then they grow symbiots or stuff that will achieve the same result as a machine. Sometime they hijack stuff, tho.