[Grey Wolf]

There is actually a rather serious problem with the Electorate College system used by the United States of America. If you actually look at the percentage of popular votes vs. the percentage of Electoral College votes, the margin is far closer for the popular vote. This also effectively destroys any chance for a third party to gain control of the White House without the demise of one of the existing parties.

Here's two examples of my point, the 1996 and 2000 elections, with the numbers obtained from the Federal Elections Commission's website:
I. 1996
  A. Clinton
    1. Electoral Vote percentage: 70.45%
    2. Popular Vote percentage: 49.24%
  B. Dole
    1. Electoral Vote percentage: 29.45%
    2. Popular Vote percentage: 40.71%
II. 2000
  A. Gore
    1. Electoral Vote percentage: 49.53%
    2. Popular Vote percentage: 48.38%
  B. Bush
    1. Electoral Vote percentage: 50.47%
    2. Popular Vote percentage: 47.87%

As shown by these numbers, the Electoral College truly does not represent the population of the country. And I'm sorry about the small sample pool, but the FEC only had two presidential elections on their site.

[an0n]

Anything less 'people oriented' than proportional representation is just plain ****ing stupid.

[mikhael]

The electoral college system is a combination of proportional and non proportional. Each vote in the electoral college is cast by a congressmen (plus a few others like PuertoRico which has no congressmen but does get two votes, I think). Congress is both proportional and non-proportional. The Senate is made up of 2 senators from each state (giving states equal representation), while the House of Representatives has one representative for each X citizens (giving the people equal representation). Because the Electoral College is made up of both of these, you get really funky numbers.

Mind you, the person who casts the electoral vote for a given state or district could ignore the overall numbers and vote any way he pleased. Its been done in the past. Its just become de-riguer that the popular vote for a state dictates where ALL electoral votes for that state and its people go.

[Ace]

Originally posted by JBX-Phoenix
You all can goto hell.  I'm done with this forum and all its anti-American ideas.

If criticism of the American government, an exercise of democratic rights and freedoms, is anti-American, then obviously the America you speak of is a dictatorship.


Anyway, as for the comments on the electoral college destroying the chance of other parties gaining power there are a lot of voting laws in individual states (such as declaring what party you are a member of to receive their ballot, and then having to file a party change to the state if you want a different one) that hinder the ability for the US to have multiple parties that can be more honest and direct in their objectives as opposed to two behemoth parties who attempt to please the masses.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by JBX-Phoenix
Nevermind.  I dont know why I participate in threads like these, or even this Forum for that matter.  I am tired of contending with a bunch of ****ing assholes who twist peoples words and actions out of proportion.

You all can goto hell.  I'm done with this forum and all its anti-American ideas.

Bye to all the people who have helped me over the years, the rest can do what I said above.

And no, Im not worried about getting banned, I couldnt care less.  If that happens I wont be tempted to come anymore.

damn that felt good

Look dude, criticism with logic and fact to back it up is not wrong. Why is it anti-Americanism every time someone makes what they percieve to be a legitimate complaint, but the US can spit all over the rest of the world and its not considered anti-French or anti-Iranian or anti-Korean or whatever. You see what I mean? Why don't you just refute the arguements if you feel they are incorrect?

I think that if you were to make a list of the top what you would call anti-Americans (people critical of certain governement policies) on this forum, then I would rank pretty high up there. And I can tell you honestly that I've got nothing more against the American people than I've got against any other people. However the governement is a different story, and I think that its not only acceptable but actually helpful to be critical of the government. Your government, my government, any government. If not critical, than at the very least skeptical. Thats what makes you a citizen instead of a sheep (yes, I've said this same thing before). So long as you've got an actual point, and are not just pissed in their general direction. And I try never to rant on unless I've got a specifc and factual beef.

Peace out.

[mikhael]

I really, deeply, truly hope that I'm near the top of JBX-Phoenix's "anti-american" list.

[Kazan]

JBX - STFU this is the absolutely LEAST hostile forum i've ever been on - i keep expecting the others to be halfway as mature as this community and i'm always disappointed.

if people have a problem with what you're saying it's probably because you A) offend them B) are full of it

[Grey Wolf]

I almost wish we had a parliamentary system as opposed to our current system. Of course, that system also has it's own problems....

[Odyssey]

[color=cc9900]Get me enough resin and glass weave, and a huge floor space nearby the sea. Then I'll make a floating fibreglass city for HLP denizens. It's the only way arguments like this will ever end, since *****ing would then actually have an effect on the situation instead of just being mired somewhere deep within the internet.[/color]

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by JBX-Phoenix
Nevermind.  I dont know why I participate in threads like these, or even this Forum for that matter.  I am tired of contending with a bunch of ****ing assholes who twist peoples words and actions out of proportion.

You all can goto hell.  I'm done with this forum and all its anti-American ideas.

Bye to all the people who have helped me over the years, the rest can do what I said above.

And no, Im not worried about getting banned, I couldnt care less.  If that happens I wont be tempted to come anymore.

damn that felt good

If you aren't willing to accept other peoples opinions and beliefs, you shouldn't be online -  period.  Take a deep breath, and consider that this form of free speech is the very basis of democracy.  Regardless of whether you agree with or not, it is needed, it is vital, and it's what stops countries turning into dictatorships

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900]Get me enough resin and glass weave, and a huge floor space nearby the sea. Then I'll make a floating fibreglass city for HLP denizens. It's the only way arguments like this will ever end, since *****ing would then actually have an effect on the situation instead of just being mired somewhere deep within the internet.[/color]

But why should it end? I was under the impression that politcal and social debate, regardless of whether or not it produces a tangible result, can only be beneficial to those discussing it and to their communities and ultimately, the world. You disagree?

[Odyssey]

[color=cc9900]I'd certainly challenge your "can only be beneficial". We've already had two members (by my count) walk off in a huff about "Anti-Americanism".[/color]

[Flipside]

Well, reading through this thread, I've actually heard nothing really bad said about the American people, in fact, what I have seen is people complaining about the American peoples freedom being taken away. Since America was founded on the right to Freedom I consider taking peoples rights away to be far more 'Anti American' than any posts in here.

[Rictor]

Well, am I (or anyone else for that matter) to blame if people overreact and decide to walk away. Their choice really. In the vast majority of cases, it doesn't turn into a flamewar or anything, just a fairly civilized debate. If people are offended when really there is nothing to be offended about, thats their thing and only they are accountable for their actions. I meant beneficial in a sense that it generally improves society based on the free expression of ideas. The Internet can, and often is, like one huge, open philosophy/sociology/politics class. And I see no problem with that. 3000 years ago, people were doing the same thing, only they didn't have the technology to facilitate such widespread communication. All the "anti-Americanism" so far has been very specific and factual. If people can't handle any critism whatsoever of their beloved nation, or if they choose not to dispute the ideas put forward, thats not my problem.

Ok, that was really OT, so I'll just end this conversation right here. Getting back on topic now....

edit: Flipside, check your post. I think you're getting the wrong meaning across. But if you meant what I assume you meant, then I comepletly agree.

[Odyssey]

[color=cc9900]I admit, one of my motives behind disliking discussions such as this is that it prevents me from the total eradication of American politics from my thought processes (I gave up on trying to understand it a while ago, and there's plenty enough to complain about in my own little country). Every time, it's "what have they done now?".
My other reason for disliking discussions like this is that the discussion is so similar and predictable every time something happens or is pointed out. Haven't we heard enough yet to happily establish that American politics just don't work?[/color]

[CP5670]

I've been reading these threads for my morning entertainment for the last two months; these days there is at least one every week around here. When you get idiot statements coming from both sides in an argument, the best thing is to sit back and watch the fireworks.

There was some comment earlier about this being one of the best places on the internet to talk about this stuff. This is perfectly true, but considering the standards of the internet, that's not saying much.

[Flipside]

Post edited, thanks Rictor, having an 'I cnat teyp' day

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900] Haven't we heard enough yet to happily establish that American politics just don't work?[/color]

Ah, but American politics DO work. Our nation is still here and hasn't balkanized (though, admittedly it almost did, once). That's a pretty good track record. Heck, we only had to rewrite our basic assumptions as a nation once (and if you're american and don't know what I'm talking about, you need to go back to history class).

[Grey Wolf]

They do work, I just wish we had more parties that actually had a chance to do something. And no one point out the fact that the Socialist party has one person in the House of Representatives as evidence that the third parties do have a chance to do something.

[an0n]

Not having nuked yourselves into a oblivion isn't exactly something that should be considered an accomplishment, Mik.

Also:

Heck, we only had to rewrite our basic assumptions as a nation once (and if you're american and don't know what I'm talking about, you need to go back to history class).

I'm English, so maybe you could spell it out for me.

Would you be refering to slavery? Or racism in general? Or maybe it was letting every nutter who wanted one have a gun? Or not letting women vote? Or maybe staying out of WW2 till your own asses were on the line?

As far as supposedly 'good' countries go, America has a pretty ****ty track-record.