[Flipside]

Well, I hate to say it, but we aren't much better in that respect. Still at least we don't get a strop on if people say so

Hell, I'd probably agree with more than half of it these days.

[an0n]

The thing with countries like Britain and Spain is that, yes we've got a history full of 'atrocities' and 'barbarism' but it was the countries of old working through all that **** that meant we don't have to go through it now.

Britain saw that conquering other countries was more trouble than it was worth and it was better to just back off, let them do their own stuff and start makin' nice with them once they were ready.

And that's where America goes fundamentally wrong.

They never had to go through all the thousands of years of butchering people and religious drivel. So that somehow automagically gives them the morale high-ground. And they lack perspective.

Britain knows that a few hundred years ago it was exactly like Iraq and Iran and Korean. Tyrants lording it up over the populous, doing as they pleased. And Britain knows that eventually they'll work through it. People will tire of oppression, changes will be made and eventually everyone will be happy.

Not America.

America seeks to impose change now. They don't want to keep the barbarians from the gate till they get bored and leave, they wanna pelt them with stones and call them names while they just keep on bangin'.

And as even the most fundamentally retarded of people knows: You kill a man to silence his beliefs and all you do is make a martyr.

[Bobboau]

at least were doing a better job than the british did

and lets not have any more davebs, lets not leave our pro American (read; sane ) forumites to fend for them selves in an ever left leaning comunity

[Flipside]

A lot of this is motivated by the Corporate sectors thirst for Oil, I would not be surprised if there are those in the American Government (and other governments) who know exactly the long term outcomes of their actions, as well as a lot of intelligent, but alas powerless people who are unable to prevent it.

Now, I am not forwarding this as a conspiracy theory, merely as a test of your trust in the most powerful man in the world.....

If it turned out that, when a week after Spirit lands, George Bush wants to go to Mars, and is mysteriously immobile for a while, it turned out that Mars WAS once vegetated and now had massive Oilfields?

Like I said, not a conspiracy theory, I don't believe this to be actually true, just a test of what your first thought is.


Edit : I mean Spirit is immobile, not George Bush, not that anyone would tell.

ph34r the 2am poster

[01010]

Wait wait, when did George Bush land on Mars?

[an0n]

About 45 minutes after China nuked his ass.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by an0n
Would you be refering to slavery? Or racism in general? Or maybe it was letting every nutter who wanted one have a gun? Or not letting women vote? Or maybe staying out of WW2 till your own asses were on the line?

As far as supposedly 'good' countries go, America has a pretty ****ty track-record.

Wow. That's pretty groovy, An0n. Especially since many, if not most, of the grossest world-wide cockups in the western world in the last 500yrs can be laid at the feet of the Brits. Of course, given the whole 'the sun never sets on the British Empire' mentality led to you guys having one of the widest ranging colonial systems on earth. Of course you ended up screwing up the middle east, southwest asia, parts of south america and your own favorite bastard child, the USA.

What I was referring to was the fact that the current US system was not our first. We had the Articles of Confederation before we had the Constitution. Under the Articles, we had a completely different governement (nearly no federal government to speak of) and mostly a bunch of squalling states.

BTW, I find it funny that you're complaining about WW2, when your own government did nearly nothing to avert it, failing to enforce the sanctions you demanded after WW1. WW2 was your problem until the Japanese bombed us, have no doubt. I also find it entertaining you talk about the US and slavery, without acknowledging anyone elses involvement--like oh, the British, the Spanish and Portuguese, the Dutch, and all the rest of your happy little imperial european powers--in either the slavery, or the slave trade that continued after you lot abandoned it back home.

Don't give me the self righteous bull**** about the US, an0n. You evidently have forgotten your own history, and don't know ours.

Originally posted by Bobboau
at least were doing a better job than the british did

and lets not have any more davebs, lets not leave our pro American (read; sane ) forumites to fend for them selves in an ever left leaning comunity

Bob, pro-american and left-leaning are not mutually exclusive, thanks.

[Bobboau]

true, but it does have a tendency to go that way, there arn't too many right wing anti-American groupes

[mikhael]

Oh, I don't know. Fox  News is about as right wing as it gets, Bob, and they're pretty anti-american. They against the freedom of speech, for example (well, unless you're a republican).

[icespeed]

can someone just explain to me, is the word 'america' here used as a sort of ideal by which people can rationalise their actions? i mean, people are saying 'pro-american' and 'anti-american' in much the same tones as one might say 'pro-communist' or 'anti-christian' and those refer to (i know im generalising here) ideologies.

so can we define 'american' as an ideology? (i wouldn't presume to say what it might be an ideology of.)

[mikhael]

It IS an ideology, Icespeed. Its just that we don't agree on what that ideology is. Personally, I take the Constitution of the United States, the supreme law of the land, as the core of what is 'american'. Even that, however is up for debate, as its sometimes difficult to pin down what the Constitution means. The second amendment is a very good example of that.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by mikhael

Wow. That's pretty groovy, An0n. Especially since many, if not most, of the grossest world-wide cockups in the western world in the last 500yrs can be laid at the feet of the Brits. Of course, given the whole 'the sun never sets on the British Empire' mentality led to you guys having one of the widest ranging colonial systems on earth. Of course you ended up screwing up the middle east, southwest asia, parts of south america and your own favorite bastard child, the USA.

What I was referring to was the fact that the current US system was not our first. We had the Articles of Confederation before we had the Constitution. Under the Articles, we had a completely different governement (nearly no federal government to speak of) and mostly a bunch of squalling states.

BTW, I find it funny that you're complaining about WW2, when your own government did nearly nothing to avert it, failing to enforce the sanctions you demanded after WW1. WW2 was your problem until the Japanese bombed us, have no doubt. I also find it entertaining you talk about the US and slavery, without acknowledging anyone elses involvement--like oh, the British, the Spanish and Portuguese, the Dutch, and all the rest of your happy little imperial european powers--in either the slavery, or the slave trade that continued after you lot abandoned it back home.

Don't give me the self righteous bull**** about the US, an0n. You evidently have forgotten your own history, and don't know ours.

I think an0ns' point was that the US nation doesn't have the history to recognise the mistakes of old....whereas the likes of the 'old powers' at least have that history to try and learn from.

On the subject of WW2, don't think that the US wasn't involved in WW2 before the Japanese picked a fight.  German u-boats were attacking Us arms convoys in the Atlantic, and Hitler, IIRC, sent a letter to Mexico offering financial & military support if they invaded Texas (as he saw US entry into the war as inevitable).  

Although if you're suggesting that the US would have been willing to see the eventual genocide of the Jewish, then non-Aryan popuation in Europe and would not have intervened.........

[Shrike]

Definate advantages to living in a communist state.  You'd all be too busy building tanks and rockets to ***** about politics on a webforum for gaming.

[Ghostavo]

like oh, the British, the Spanish and Portuguese, the Dutch, and all the rest of your happy little imperial european powers

Portugal is an european power!!! I never heard anyone saying this since... er... the 16th century...  

ok, fun is over lets review the rest of your post...

WW2 was an indirect result of something happening in 1929 (in the U.S.) if I recall, it was called the "Great Depression" so Britain and France, the main forces behind the control made on Germany by the armistice were seriously affected as well as most of europe. I don't believe this to be the americans fault, but it was the economists fault!

When Hitler started attacking countries left and right, all they could do was watch because their military power wasn't even comparable to that of the 3rd Reich.
Only when they invaded Poland, which had a treaty with Britain (not sure about france) did they declare war... but even then, they waited a few days (3 if I recall).

The japs as you call them WERE in fact a threat to the U.S. as well as the war in europe... who do you think they were going to attack next when their targets in the pacific and in europe disappeared? But by then, they would be prepared... have no doubt.

Speaking of slavery is like trying to decide what came first, the chicken or it's egg? Because not only the europeans and the U.S. had it but also every god damned country in the world!! It's not just a stain on the history sheet of a country... it's a stain on humanity!!

Different times, different minds... no way you can relate past with present... it's like seing who's best, Bach or Mozart?

Shrike... who says communism is bad? You're right...

P.S.
What do americans learn in history classes?
Because of their short history (+\- 200 years), I have always wondered about this...

[Rictor]

I think that mik has a point. The British Empire was at its peak both larger and crueler than the US is today. However, I can completely agree with the other part, saying how Europe has learned from their experiences. They've had almost 2000 years of nearly constant war. Through this, they've learned (not completely, but certainly much more than America) the terrible cost of war. Every country in Europe has had a war on their territory, had their people die and starve and run from bombs. Most of them have had in many times. So they know the chaos that they're inflicting upon a coutry when they bomb it, or when they invade or when they implement trade sanctions. America has never had a large and bloody war (yes, the war of independece but that was over 200 years ago) on its soil. The case could be made for the Civil War, but it was just that, a civil war. It wasn't one nation invading another, so I don't think the point really got across.

Thats not to say that Britain orthe rest of Europe are some sort of angels, to be admired for their humanity. For one thing, all their "antiwar" sentiments are worth exactly ****, since not 4 years ago they were the ones who were wholeheartedly dropping bombs. People tend to forget that. And another thing, its not like the British Empire saw themselves for what they were, threw themselves upon the ground and swore to repair the damage. They were forced out of existence by rebellion in the colonies as well as by the feasability of maintaining an Empire.


May the US empire never become what the British was  100 years ago. I don't think I'de like to live in that world.
__

And no Shrike, thats not one of the advantages. Read Huxley's Brave New World.

[Rictor]

Besides Shrike, they've got TV now. It does the same thing. Instead of worrying how many children your tax dollars killed today, you can just watch The Bachelor or The OC or whatever **** happens to be on that day. And then you get immersed in their reality instead of your own, and suddenly everything is all right.

As I've said before, I believe that in the near future, there will be entire wars that go completely unnoticed because the final episode of Survivor was one. The politicians have figured out a way to keep the masses docile, and its called TeeVee. No one knows who the president of Iran is, but everyone knows every little detail about Jennifer Lopez and Ben Afflek's marriage woes. Its ****ing shameful.

[Grey Wolf]

The question for this thread for the day: What is the status of the US today? Ascending empire or declining empire?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
The question for this thread for the day: What is the status of the US today? Ascending empire or declining empire?

Ascending power, in risk of drastic future decline.

i.e. the Us is undoubtedly the most powerful and influential country in the world.  However, depending on the actions over the next decade or so, it could easily become a pariah state.... not just over the 'War on terror' and Bushes 'strike first' policy, but also over what sort of measures the Us takes to actually improve the world - i.e. reducing third world debt (as it wants to do for Iraq, a country with vast oil reserves), steps away from agressive protectionsim in trade (like the steel tarriffs), more co-operation and willingness to use the UN, anti-pollution measures, etc.

The US is probably the country with the greatest potential to change the worse.  Whether it's for better or worse is the question....

As an aside, I don't think the UK is doing enough either... this country is going down the ****ter rapidly, in terms of transport, economy, education, politics, the environment and pretty much everything.

[an0n]

Originally posted by Rictor
For one thing, all their "antiwar" sentiments are worth exactly ****, since not 4 years ago they were the ones who were wholeheartedly dropping bombs.

If you're refering to bombing the **** out of Kosovo, I think destroying a few buildings to stop the genocide of an entire race of people is about as good a justification for war as you can get.

And on the subject of WW2, Britain tried and tried and tried to prevent a war with Germany because, when all is said and done, the lives of a few thousand Jews being lost every day is nothing compared to potentially reliving WW1 and losing 18 million people and turning France into one huge, smoking crater again.

So Britain left it and left it and pleaded with Hitler and told him not to **** around. And he did it anyway.

And where was America when he started genociding people? No-****ing-where to be seen.

They only even started talking about screwing Hitler when the U-boats kept harassing American convoys in the Atlantic.

Then they waited till they were directly attacked before they started fighting.

Britain knew they couldn't stand up to the resurrected German army. They knew there was talk of a ton of countries joining the Germans. They knew that Hitler's troops were trained intensely. They knew that the Germans possessed some of the most advanced technology to date. They knew there was a very real possibility of losing. And still they just said "**** it. This is wrong" and started the war anyway.

That's a hell of different from America getting kicked in the balls and overwhelming the Axis with their massive industrial and economic capacity.

WW2 was an indirect result of something happening in 1929 (in the U.S.) if I recall, it was called the "Great Depression" so Britain and France, the main forces behind the control made on Germany by the armistice were seriously affected as well as most of europe. I don't believe this to be the americans fault, but it was the economists fault!

No.

The Treaty of Versailles took everything Germany had, so they had to lend a ****-load of cash from America to pay France reparitions so that they wouldn't invade the Rhineland and take all the coal (one of the few valuables that Germany had left). After a while and with some very clever politicizing Germany was getting back on its feet and was on its way to becoming a respectable state again.

When the stock-market crashed, America called in all its loans and pulled the rug out from under Germany. Germany was suddenly bankrupt and this opened the door for Hitler to come in *****ing about how the Jews had caused it all. How the Jews, who owned most of the banks and **** in America that screwed Germany, had most definitely screwed Germany.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by an0n
If you're refering to bombing the **** out of Kosovo, I think destroying a few buildings to stop the genocide of an entire race of people is about as good a justification for war as you can get.

And on the subject of WW2, Britain tried and tried and tried to prevent a war with Germany because, when all is said and done, the lives of a few thousand Jews being lost every day is nothing compared to potentially reliving WW1 and losing 18 million people and turning France into one huge, smoking crater again.

So Britain left it and left it and pleaded with Hitler and told him not to **** around. And he did it anyway.

And where was America when he started genociding people? No-****ing-where to be seen.

They only even started talking about screwing Hitler when the U-boats kept harassing American convoys in the Atlantic.

Then they waited till they were directly attacked before they started fighting.

Britain knew they couldn't stand up to the resurrected German army. They knew there was talk of a ton of countries joining the Germans. They knew that Hitler's troops were trained intensely. They knew that the Germans possessed some of the most advanced technology to date. They knew there was a very real possibility of losing. And still they just said "**** it. This is wrong" and started the war anyway.

That's a hell of different from America getting kicked in the balls and overwhelming the Axis with their massive industrial and economic capacity.

No.

The Treaty of Versailles took everything Germany had, so they had to lend a ****-load of cash from America to pay France reparitions so that they wouldn't invade the Rhineland and take all the coal (one of the few valuables that Germany had left). After a while and with some very clever politicizing Germany was getting back on its feet and was on its way to becoming a respectable state again.

When the stock-market crashed, America called in all its loans and pulled the rug out from under Germany. Germany was suddenly bankrupt and this opened the door for Hitler to come in *****ing about how the Jews had caused it all. How the Jews, who owned most of the banks and **** in America that screwed Germany, had most definitely screwed Germany.

Um...this actually got a few inaccuraccies.

Firstly, I don't think Britain or indeed any of the allies knew about the concentration camps till far later in the war.  The first actual mass killings took place in November 1938, during the Kristallnacht (Crystal nighte / night of broken Glass), and the organized killing about a year-ish later (the physically / mentally disabled were klilled first, on the outbreak of war).  Had this been going on beforehand, I have no doubt international opinion would be much firmer when it came to appeasement.

Also, the harshness of the Treaty of Versailles was down to the French wish to completely remove Germany as a future threat.  The US actually wanted a faily lenient treaty, as did the UK (albeit ot a lesser degree, namely the removal of the German naval threat) because of the need for a stable Germany to maintain European peace.

IIRC, in the 1920s Germany was suffering from hyperinflation, and totally reliant on foreign aid - it was by no means recovering, and was still, I believe, crippled by paying reparations to France for war damage.  Secondly, it's worth poniting out that the Nazi's were never elected- IIRC they got about 25% of the vote, but were part of a coalition government, with Hitler appointed chancellor.  The reason for the coalition was because of the growing streght of the Communists (the 2nd party).

Finally, the declarataion of war on Germany was not a moral point... it was a treatied obligation which could not be broken (unlike, for example, the German annexation of parts of Czechoslovakia).