[Fineus]

Originally posted by Bobboau
yes but our innaction can have the same effect as action
[pointed at kal]

True but - inferior or not - who are any of us, or our countries or governments to decide who gets to live or die? I'm not argueing that everyone around the world should be allowed to murder eachother as they please without the intervention of others, but if you believe that western countries only invaded eastern countries to displace leaders - you're wrong. While the major factor of "oil" isn't all it was done for - there's a certain amount of truth behind the fact that it was a contributing factor.

My point is that things aren't so black and white as "I come from this country, therefore anyone who comes from that country who kills someone from this country should be killed" is a really efficient way to wipe out the human race.

Another point regarding armies - just because a man is a member of the iraqi army doesnt mean he is inheriently evil. Several of my school friends wanted to join the army - not because of how "evil" everyone else was, but merely because they liked it as a career.

Edit:

Originally posted by Beowulf

I don't think you understand. I don't care about protecting you. I only care about protecting me, my family, my country. If your country has the same goals as ours, then by all means, let us join forces and protect each other.

So you would die for your country? Very noble - but I wish your country cared about you as much as you seem to care about your country. I garuntee you that while you're out in the middle of a desert fighting a war for your country, the politicians who told you it was right to go out there and fight will be thousands of miles away leading very productive lives, driving their SUVs to work and eating a healthy three course meal every dinner - not giving a seconds thought to you or your life.

Hate to be the one to break it you - but when it comes to invading other countries, politicians don't care about the men they send - they care about the reasons behind it, and the chances are those reasons aren't in the best interest of the population - they're in the best interests of the politician.

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by Odyssey

[color=cc9900]Since Dracula started to love blood, I suppose.[/color]

Ohh good. Use an imaginary figment to apply to the real world. Is that the best you can do?

Let me show you: the love of blood is not an evil thing, what you do to get it is.

BTW, since Dracula was a vampire, and since he needs to drink blood, by your former statements, this makes him on par with the rest of us, right?

Originally posted by Kalfireth

True but - inferior or not - who are any of us, or our countries or governments to decide who gets to live or die? I'm not argueing that everyone around the world should be allowed to murder eachother as they please without the intervention of others, but if you believe that western countries only invaded eastern countries to displace leaders - you're wrong. While the major factor of "oil" isn't all it was done for - there's a certain amount of truth behind the fact that it was a contributing factor.

Bull****. Show me where.

Originally posted by Kalfireth
My point is that things aren't so black and white as "I come from this country, therefore anyone who comes from that country who kills someone from this country should be killed" is a really efficient way to wipe out the human race.

No, its a really efficient way to protect your own country.

[Gloriano]

Originally posted by Beowulf



Ohh good. Use an imaginary figment to apply to the real world. Is that the best you can do?

Let me show you: the love of blood is not an evil thing, what you do to get it is.

BTW, since Dracula was a vampire, and since he needs to drink blood, by your former statements, this makes him on par with the rest of us, right?

every body needs blood so they can live;)

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Kalfireth

True but - inferior or not - who are any of us, or our countries or governments to decide who gets to live or die? I'm not argueing that everyone around the world should be allowed to murder eachother as they please without the intervention of others, but if you believe that western countries only invaded eastern countries to displace leaders - you're wrong. While the major factor of "oil" isn't all it was done for - there's a certain amount of truth behind the fact that it was a contributing factor.

My point is that things aren't so black and white as "I come from this country, therefore anyone who comes from that country who kills someone from this country should be killed" is a really efficient way to wipe out the human race.

Another point regarding armies - just because a man is a member of the iraqi army doesnt mean he is inheriently evil. Several of my school friends wanted to join the army - not because of how "evil" everyone else was, but merely because they liked it as a career.

Well once must accept the sad fact of the world. Might makes right. Whether that be economically or militarily, its the truth. Nobody can really oppose what the US is doing, so they can do what they like. Of course, this doesnt mean they're 'right', just depends on how you interpret the word.

[Bobboau]

I like the UK, I like Spain, I like most of the former USSR, and for some reason that defies me I still like France, these are contries who we share common a common culture with, and they are our allies, I would rush to defend any one of them as quickly as I would the USA. (unless one was being atacked by the other, wich would make me have to decide wich one I liked more, I'd still try to simply stop the fighting, becase I don't see any of them as beeing simply wrong).
I also like people around the world, all people who don't hate me, if some group of people is being oppressed, I will empathise with them and want to help, for years I hoped we would do something about Afghanastan, I never thought we would and this upset me (especaly seeing as we were partaly to blame for the situation), same thing with Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia (insert long list here). I don't want to force these people to live the way I think they should, I simply want them to not be forced into liveing the way some small minority thinks they should.

Is this arrogance?

[Fineus]

Zeronet - exactly. Just because you have the largest country doesn't automatically make you "better" or "right" compared to everyone else. Ideally nobody would kill anyone else, indeed America wasn't nearly so interested in fighting terrorism around the world untill someone attacked them. Then suddenly they realised that they weren't as immune and untouchable as they'd like to have believed. Indeed they were lucky they weren't nuked - indeed everyone was. It goes without saying that if one country nukes another - they fight back - and so it goes. It only takes one nuke to persuade most major governments that have them to start thinking a lot more seriously about using them - see how good your countries mighty defences are when that happens. Nobody will be safe.

[Bobboau]

also people in enemy armies arn't nesisaraly evil, but you can't think like that if you are in a battle, in fact that's why we have such an easy ability to dehumanise other people, for that exact situation, if you are in a fight for your life, you can't be thinking about the other guy's famely.

also there are other things we can do than simply invade other contries, in Iran for example, I think we can do a great deal to help the people gain freedom just by giveing them suport, we probly wouldn't need to fire a single shot in that instance (though we should be prepared to should the need arise, as 1992 Iraq shows)

[Gloriano]

I'am just hoping that no one will use Nukes never.Actually those weapons should be Illegal because in wrong hands those are too Dangerous to our planet safety



(now I'am sounding like politic scary)

[Bobboau]

yes, but a nuke is one thing you don't want to be without when you need one.

[Fineus]

I beg to disagree - nuclear weapons are great because everyone is to scared to use them. Therefore you'll no longer get countries attacking eachother such as China and America because sooner or later one or the other will think "bugger this, nuke time" and that'll be that. The problem is when terrorists or smaller nations with a "nothing to lose" attitude get hold of them - after that things get a lot more dicey. But if you didn't have such an awesome deterent as nuclear weapons there'd be nothing to stop anyone from invading anyone else since conventional weapons would be all that's left.

[Gloriano]

Nukes using fear weapon is good thing but Usage is not

[Odyssey]

[color=cc9900]Should I have known you wouldn't get a joke, Beowulf?
My analogy was, of course, a fictional one. My point is that love is not necessarily a good thing, as with practically any feeling. What if someone loved war? What, even, if someone loved their own life? Would that still be a good thing when they went on a mass slaughter after becoming a wanted man/woman in order to protect their own life?[/color]

[kasperl]

interesting point, Kal, very nice.

nukes for peace. actually, this makes more sense the more i think about it.


the worst thing about war is still that people are forced to kill others just because they are from a different country. if you put a WWII era German, Britt and Yank in a pub, but took away uniforms language differences, i doubt they would've done anything but buy the other guy a round. that is to me the worst part of a war, killing for no other reason then "if i don't do this, someone else will get hurt because the president of the other country says so".

[Odyssey]

Originally posted by Holy Imperial Gloriano
Nukes using fear weapon is good thing but Usage is not

[color=cc9900]Pray, tell me, how are you going to use them as a fear weapon when you've already made the use of them illegal?
As I said before, you're a great politician, mate.[/color]

[Bobboau]

I was thinking more along the lines of
"today all world leaders have gotten together to sign the 'no more nukes' treaty of 2173, and look at them nukes go flying off into the sun, well the world is safe at last ...
/*fifteen minutes later a dark shadow passes over head*/
Oh my God, it's a giant asteroid comeing to smash us all to bits!
/*some random world leader*/'don't worry, we'll just use our nuuuoh Crap!'"

[kasperl]

well, one large rock would solve it all, if that's what you mean.


Einstein said that the 4th WW would be fought with sticks and stones, but i disagree, i think there will be no-one left after the third.

[Gloriano]

Originally posted by Odyssey

[color=cc9900]Pray, tell me, how are you going to use them as a fear weapon when you've already made the use of them illegal?
As I said before, you're a great politician, mate.[/color]

I just thinked more,about it but of course there is been some dangerous times Cold war in there was Soviets nukes but I hope there is no WW III but world could Change in some point in really bad way I hope not

 was thinking more along the lines of
"today all world leaders have gotten together to sign the 'no more nukes' treaty of 2173, and look at them nukes go flying off into the sun, well the world is safe at last ...
/*fifteen minutes later a dark shadow passes over head*/
Oh my God, it's a giant asteroid comeing to smash us all to bits!
/*some random world leader*/'don't worry, we'll just use our nuuuoh Crap!'"

by then there myghty be better way deal them if humans don't kill them selfs before that

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900]Should I have known you wouldn't get a joke, Beowulf?
My analogy was, of course, a fictional one. My point is that love is not necessarily a good thing, as with practically any feeling. What if someone loved war? What, even, if someone loved their own life? Would that still be a good thing when they went on a mass slaughter after becoming a wanted man/woman in order to protect their own life?[/color]

No. But you obviously didn't read my post.

I said love is not a bad thing while the individual choice you make can be. The love of war is not wrong, unless, of course you go start one just for fun.

Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900]What, even, if someone loved their own life?[/color]

Perhaps that is where we differ. I love my life.

[Gloriano]

*waits Troy*

[Odyssey]

[color=cc9900]Where the individual choice is based off the love. Love is not the direct perpetrator of that act of war, but it indirectly caused it and therefore while maybe not inherently evil in itself, it is in no way a good thing. At best, it's neutral.
Remember that love is one of these individual choices you speak of.[/color]