[karajorma]

Originally posted by Liberator
It's taken me a couple of days to understand this.  But, Kazan, mikhael and any other so called 'aetheists', I understand now why you so vehemently dislike religion, Christianity in particular.

You're afraid.

Afraid that we're right and you're wrong.  Because if we are, then there's more after this life and you're actions in this life will govern how you spend what comes after.  You believe that if you can discredit us, that you discredit what we represent.  You have my pity.

 I have absolutely no doubt that the God you believe in doesn't exist. Your holy book is too full of errors and serious immorality to ever fool me.  So I'm not afraid that I've got it wrong and I'm going to hell. The possibility of Hell even existing is laughable to me.

What I am afraid of is what the world would be like if people like you ever got total control. That possibilty gives me nightmares.

[beatspete]

Originally posted by Liberator

You're afraid.

Afraid that we're right and you're wrong...

Ha.  That's rich, coming from someone who has to invent false ideas to comfort them from the real truth.
I think a non-religious person has a bit less to be afraid of (with respect to there actually being an afterlide), than someone who bases their whole life and philosophies on something that can't actually be proven to exist.
If I die and end up at the pearly gates being juded by St Peter (whoever it is), then fair enough.
If you die and find nothing - since your dead, its going to be a bit more dissapointing for you, isn't it.  You've lost everything you ever believed in; I've lost... well, nothing really.

[Nico]

1) I wouldn't like to be that judging guy, considering the hundred of peoples whi die every second ( he better do his job fast )
2) but since there's nothing after death, he won't be disapointed or anything, since he'll just vanish, you know

[Liberator]

@ Genryu

Your head of church banning the use of condoms when it would save thousands of lives in Africa, where the people actually listen to the preachers.

I never said I was Catholic, I am in fact Southern Baptist.  I am therefore a Protestant.  And the primary error that everybody is making, you are judging modern religions by what was in the past, the far past.  I could hardly judge one of you from your actions when you were a child.



However, this morning I realized what it's all about, the controversy about Gay Marriage, the Janet Jackson debacle and what has come after, all of it.


Right and Wrong


There is such a thing as Right and there is such a thing a Wrong.  The controversy arises because a portion of the population wants to believe that Wrong is based on what will be accepted by people around them then it's okay.  I'll answer them by asking a question, if the people around them were killing innocents for fun and laughing about it, does it make it any less wrong?

On a basic pre-conscious level, most people realize that homossexuality is wrong.  Now, consciously, they may behave otherwise, but honestly when you find out the guy standing next to you is gay, you try and put a little distance between you and him don't you?

[Kazan]

Liberator: "right and wrong" are always relative

and your assertion that on a "basic pre-conscious level, most people realize that homosexuality is wrong" is PROPOSTEROUS - have you even taken a psychology class.  You merely conmtinue to be a BIGOT

ATTEMPT to justify your dislike without using appeals to religion or "morality"

[Beowulf]

Originally posted by Liberator
@Beowolf:
America is Constitutionaly governed Representative Republic.  The only thing democratic about us is our voting method.  True democracies are rule by the majority.  America, at least for now, is country governed by the Rule of Law.  May it always be so.

You're right, I know that.

So, if we can get a constitutional amendment making only marriages between a man and a women legally recognized, than good. Because we ARE a constitutional republic.

Why do I want this amendment? Because everyday I see the destruction of my society, I see the destruction of all that is good in this world. Everytime I see two homosexuals kiss or nuzzle, I feel so sick to my stomach that If I don't leave immeadiatly, I'll vomit. That is the ONLY time in my life I have ever felt that way. I've seen my share of disgusting things and acts, but nothing compares to two homosexuals going at it. (Mangled dead bodies don't even come close.)

Homosexuality is wrong. From anyway you look at it. I don't care what you do in your bedroom, but I will not have the sanctity of marriage eroded so that homosexuals can get a tax benefit. Marriage like most things, is what you make of it. Let's not degrade it to the level of mere carnal lust. Marriage is meant to create a stable enviroment to raise children. (What's half the reason the world is going to hell? So many divorces and f***ed up families.)

The trick here is not to focus on homosexuality, it is to focus on marriage.


~Beowulf

[Liberator]

Why the focus on the marriage aspect?  It's the Homosexual part people are having a problem with.

Let me quantify, the Homosexual part is what people are having the biggest problem with right now.

You are right however when you talk about how marriage as an institution isn't what it once was.  It's decline corresponds to the removal of any kind of religion from the public consciousness that has occured since the 1960's.  What we're seeing is the backlash to the total removal of religion from public life.  People need something greater than themselves to believe in, we are just wired up that way.  mikhael and his ilk would have it be the government.  I and mine would have it be God.

The problem is government was designed to work for the people and their common defense.  Instead the current government actually does more harm than good in most cases.  People work nearly half the year to pay their tax burden in this country.  Europeans, most of you work nearly three quarters of the year to pay yours and your ####### VAT tax causes everything to be more expensive that it actually should be, I don't understand why you haven't risen up against such a horrible disservice.

[Kazan]

Only people like YOU need something greater than themselves to believe in.  You're so dependant upon your greater thing that it doesn't even enter into your mind that some individuals of this species aren't like you and don't have to have something higher to believe in.


Religion has no business in government, especially not your religion with it's bigotry and hatred.  


You and Beolwulf have yet to try to support your dislike for homosexuality - because you CANNOT your ONLY justification is that you're religious BIGOTS.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Liberator
I never said I was Catholic, I am in fact Southern Baptist.  I am therefore a Protestant.  And the primary error that everybody is making, you are judging modern religions by what was in the past, the far past.  I could hardly judge one of you from your actions when you were a child.

That's a great comment considering you then make the primary error of assuming that he was talking about something far in the past. The Pope banning condoms is something the Vatican did recently because people wanted to hand out condoms to prevent AIDS.

I don't think the pope can be called a child in any sense of the word

Originally posted by Beowulf
Let's not degrade it to the level of mere carnal lust. Marriage is meant to create a stable enviroment to raise children.  

You're showing you prejudice here again. In fact I put it to you that marriage between god-fearing christians is more about lust than it ever is between homsexuals.
 Most hetrosexual and homosexual couples get married because they are in love with each other. They get married because it is a celebration of their love and a way of showing people that they are commited to each other.
 However most homosexual couples will have slept together before getting married while the christian couples your so proud of won't have. So I ask you. Which couple is going to be thinking of the carnal delights that await them in the marriage bed?

[Genryu]

Originally posted by Liberator
@ Genryu

I never said I was Catholic, I am in fact Southern Baptist.  I am therefore a Protestant.  And the primary error that everybody is making, you are judging modern religions by what was in the past, the far past.  I could hardly judge one of you from your actions when you were a child.

On a basic pre-conscious level, most people realize that homossexuality is wrong.  Now, consciously, they may behave otherwise, but honestly when you find out the guy standing next to you is gay, you try and put a little distance between you and him don't you?

My bad. I'm not an expert on the differents sub-cultures in christianism. And if you want me to judge christianism on a more modern POV : WW2. Sorry, but I didn't see christians being that sorry other what happened to the jews in germany.
And my second point on discrimination still stands.

As for your last argument, I've never known one, so I can't say.
I've seen transexual on the other hand, and they creep me out way more than a gay couple could in my opinion. My eyes still burns when I remember this guy in a dress .

[karajorma]

I've had gay friends in the past and I've never felt any discomfort in being around them.

Sure if a gay man I knew wanted me I'd be uncomfortable around him but I'd be similarly uncomfortable around a woman who wanted me when I had no interest in her.

[Kazan]

Originally posted by karajorma
Sure if a gay man I knew wanted me I'd be uncomfortable around him but I'd be similarly uncomfortable around a woman who wanted me when I had no interest in her.

greatest post so far

[karajorma]

Most of the christian right make the assumption that every gay man wishes that he was screwing them.

Kind of egotistical when you look at some of them

[01010]

Originally posted by karajorma
Most of the christian right make the assumption that every gay man wishes that he was screwing them.

Kind of egotistical when you look at some of them

:: Insert Bill Hicks "creationists looking unevolved joke" here ::

Beowulf, you know what makes me sick? Bigots like you, hatemongers like you, people that are so insecure in their own skin that they have to spread it onto people that have done nothing wrong other than be born the way they are. People like you are the reason this world is rapidly going to ****, not two gay men who do what they do behind closed doors and personally, as much as I try to be tolerant to pure imbeciles like you, I'd love to take every single one of your ilk and sew your goddamn flapping mouths shut, preferably with a homosexuals pubic hair.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Liberator
There is such a thing as Right and there is such a thing a Wrong.  The controversy arises because a portion of the population wants to believe that Wrong is based on what will be accepted by people around them then it's okay.  I'll answer them by asking a question, if the people around them were killing innocents for fun and laughing about it, does it make it any less wrong?

I notice that you qualified your statement: "killing innocents for fun". Almost as if, somehow, killing "innocents" is some how worse than killing the corrupt, or as if killing for fun were worse than killing out of necessity. It looks like moral relativism to me--especially when your moral absolute is "Thou shalt not kill."

On a basic pre-conscious level, most people realize that homossexuality is wrong.  Now, consciously, they may behave otherwise, but honestly when you find out the guy standing next to you is gay, you try and put a little distance between you and him don't you?

No, I don't. And if he hits on me, I'm flattered. When I'm in a club, dancing on the floor, and some guy comes to dance with me, I don't freak out. I dance with him. You have to understand: some of us aren't homophobic. We don't have this idea that homosexuals are wrong--and never did. Its not 'preconcious'. Hate is something you're taught. It's something you learn.

Originally posted by Beowulf
Everytime I see two homosexuals kiss or nuzzle, I feel so sick to my stomach that If I don't leave immeadiatly, I'll vomit. That is the ONLY time in my life I have ever felt that way. I've seen my share of disgusting things and acts, but nothing compares to two homosexuals going at it. (Mangled dead bodies don't even come close.)

Wow. Someone's insecure. Me, I groove on seeing two girls kiss.

Homosexuality is wrong. From anyway you look at it. I don't care what you do in your bedroom, but I will not have the sanctity of marriage eroded so that homosexuals can get a tax benefit. Marriage like most things, is what you make of it.

First you say that marriage is something that has "sanctity", then you say it "is what you make of it". What if my marriage has no "sanctity". I wasn't married by a church. I was married by a public official on the floor of my wife's father's living room, barefoot, wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Oh, sure, six months later, there was a wedding ceremony, but that was just so we could invite everyone over to give us money and gifts.

What's half the reason the world is going to hell? So many divorces and f***ed up families.

Can you show me facts and figures that show "the world is going to hell" because of "divorces and f**ed up families"?

[Kazan]

lol @ mik... get em!

[Nico]

Originally posted by mikhael
Me, I groove on seeing two girls kiss.  

Dead on, man
And as for guys, well, I just ignore them, not like they're gonna bite me.

[01010]

Originally posted by mikhael
Wow. Someone's insecure. Me, I groove on seeing two girls kiss.

Damn straight, my G/F is up to it all the while, I love it.

Originally posted by mikhael


Can you show me facts and figures that show "the world is going to hell" because of "divorces and f**ed up families"?

See, I thought it was because we have right wing ****wits like Bush in office who is a corporate handpuppet, but obviously I was mistaken.

[Kazan]

i just realized "liberator"'s name is very ironic


is he trying to liberate the world from the tolerance and heathenism?

PS Libby - see my new sig, it's there for you

[karajorma]

Originally posted by 01010
Damn straight, my G/F is up to it all the while, I love it.

[Monty Python Voice]You lucky, lucky bastard[/Monty Python Voice]