[Knight Templar]

mmmmmm lesbian sex.....

Thank God for lesbian sex.

[Setekh]

Originally posted by Kazan
I am taking Dr Hector Avalos (professor in religious studies) words on evidence

there are a lot of webpages that quote the dubiously dated papryses that supposted predate it (p51 i think is it's assigned identifier) and don't bother to mention the dating is dubious on the earlier ones

What kind of evidence? You've seen it yourself? Or you're trusting that he's accurately and truthfully recorded his evidence?

Oh, I don't count webpages for much. I'm talking books. I have a big bookshelf on the topic, but museums are far better (like the exhibits on the Dead Sea Scrolls they held in Sydney just a few months ago).

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by an0n
So either God inflicts/allows every act of suffering and pain because he wants to, or he simply doesn't exist.

And if it's the first, then I wouldn't want to live in an afterlife run by such a complete ****-up.

If it's the first, I wouldn't either.

But God allowing suffering and pain does not mean he wants it to happen. Remember, he respects our free will above his ability to force our paths.

[an0n]

Which begs the question: Why?

Why would a being of infinite power give a **** about the right of a few measly little insects to choose what they do.

And I should also point out that on both microscopic and macroscopic scales, free-will contradicts all natural laws and more importantly, it drectly opposes the principle of cause and effect.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by an0n
Which begs the question: Why?

Why would a being of infinite power give a **** about the right of a few measly little insects to choose what they do.

Why would one care what we did in the first place?  I mean, it takes less effort to say "rights kids, now bugger off and make your entertainment while i have a cup o' team".

[Rictor]

This is pretty much headed towards a discussion regarding to Problem of Evil as I see it.

And anon, how does free will contradict cause and effect? Free will consists only of choosing one of the option that re available to you. Nowhere is it implied that in order to achieve the status of "real" free will, you must have no outside, uncontrollable condititons in play.

Right now, I have almost infinite choice as to what I'm going to do. Ditto for the next second, and the next and so forth. However, if 10 years ago, someone ran me over with a car, I would no longer have free will right now, cause I'de be dead. But external conditions can never be eliminated completely, so they are part and parcel of free will.

[mikhael]

"cup o' team"? You're into those wet'n'sticky sorts of videos aren't you, Aldo?

[an0n]

Originally posted by Rictor
This is pretty much headed towards a discussion regarding to Problem of Evil as I see it.

And anon, how does free will contradict cause and effect? Free will consists only of choosing one of the option that re available to you. Nowhere is it implied that in order to achieve the status of "real" free will, you must have no outside, uncontrollable condititons in play.

Right now, I have almost infinite choice as to what I'm going to do. Ditto for the next second, and the next and so forth. However, if 10 years ago, someone ran me over with a car, I would no longer have free will right now, cause I'de be dead. But external conditions can never be eliminated completely, so they are part and parcel of free will.

That's entirely and completely my point.

No matter what you think or do, it's all the result of outside influences.

You have no more 'free will' than a calculator does when you punch in some numbers and get it to add them.

[Rictor]

Well, that depends on your definiotion. No, pure 100% free will does not exist.

However, the free will to choose among the options that are open to you, thats possible and that exists. Thats my definition, since the previous one is impossible to achieve.

[an0n]

.........No.

Your response to any given choice of action(s) is dependant upon your past experiences. Therefore your past experiences are eliminating your free will.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by mikhael
"cup o' team"? You're into those wet'n'sticky sorts of videos aren't you, Aldo?

Er.... you've lost me completely.  

I'm slightly worried what you've been watching on t'elly, now

[Grey Wolf]

I'm still not quite sure how omniscience and free will are supposed to go together. If God knows everything that has been, is, and will be, how can we make a choice? And if we can make choices, doesn't that void the concept of an omniscient God?

[Rictor]

well, seeing the future and acting on it are two different things

You can see that a man is about to be run over by a car, but do nothing to interefere, leaving the situtation up to his own free will.

[Grey Wolf]

But if he knows that the man is going to be run over, then how could the man's free will change what is already predetermined?

[Rictor]

Well, assuming there is any such entity that is both sentient and capable of looking into the future, said entity would most likely not see THE outcome, becuase there is no ONE outcome. Think of it as a tree. You've got branches shooting off from every branch before, off into infinity.

Ofcourse, for humans, the number of braches spreading from the previous one would be some very large number.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
If God knows everything that has been, is, and will be, how can we make a choice? And if we can make choices, doesn't that void the concept of an omniscient God?

No, you see God exists in all places and at all times simoultaneously.  Time doesn't mean the same to him as it does to us.

[Grey Wolf]

Rictor: That makes sense, thanks.
Liberator: You know that wouldn't really apply, right?

[Setekh]

Originally posted by an0n
Which begs the question: Why?

Why would a being of infinite power give a **** about the right of a few measly little insects to choose what they do.

Well, Christianity has an answer for that which I think is quite satisfying.

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Liberator: You know that wouldn't really apply, right?

What, about the time? Just as a warning, don't forget to avoid antropomorphism in this area. We make statements about God all the time assuming that he is just like a human, except more powerful.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Setekh


What kind of evidence? You've seen it yourself? Or you're trusting that he's accurately and truthfully recorded his evidence?

Oh, I don't count webpages for much. I'm talking books. I have a big bookshelf on the topic, but museums are far better (like the exhibits on the Dead Sea Scrolls they held in Sydney just a few months ago).

Webpages are basicly the same form of communication as books, saying one is more reliable than the other is ridiculous. Also, its a bit pointless using archeological (sp) evidence to proof the bible is right when theres a huge amount of the same evidence that sh*ts all over the bibles version of history. Where does the 10 mile square city drowned off the coast of india fit into the bibles version of history?
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/announce/oldcity.htm

[Grey Wolf]

I'm just saying God being present at all times/places wouldn't really help explain the paradox I was trying to think my way through. In fact, it would just make it more complicated. If he is present at all times, it would mean that time was predetermined, really messing up the concept of free will.

However, I had forgotten to account for the concept of fractal timelines, which would solve the paradox fairly easily.