Author Topic: It's almost here! (teh passion)  (Read 19336 times)

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Offline mikhael

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I disagree, Steak. The answer is only satisfying if you already believe in it.

In logic circles that's called an 'if and only if' relationship. Thus:

p = christianity has an answer
q = the answer is satisfying

p if and only if q (and conversely q if and only if p).

Not p if and only if not q and not q if and only if not p. Those  who don't believe aren't satisfied by the answer.

Gimme and answer that a non-believer will be satisfied by.
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Offline Setekh

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Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Webpages are basicly the same form of communication as books, saying one is more reliable than the other is ridiculous. Also, its a bit pointless using archeological (sp) evidence to proof the bible is right when theres a huge amount of the same evidence that sh*ts all over the bibles version of history. Where does the 10 mile square city drowned off the coast of india fit into the bibles version of history?
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/announce/oldcity.htm


I don't think it's ridiculous at all. The ease with which someone can fabricate a completely unacreditted website far exceeds the same process to create a book.

And I challenge you to continue to dig up that huge amount. As for the city at Cambay, I don't see how that contravenes the Bible's version of history. Not to be definitive, but it sounds awfully like it would fit into where the Flood occurred (which is undated in the Bible, but for the fact that it precedes the patriarchs).
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Offline Setekh

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
I disagree, Steak. The answer is only satisfying if you already believe in it.

In logic circles that's called an 'if and only if' relationship. Thus:

p = christianity has an answer
q = the answer is satisfying

p if and only if q (and conversely q if and only if p).

Not p if and only if not q and not q if and only if not p. Those  who don't believe aren't satisfied by the answer.

Gimme and answer that a non-believer will be satisfied by.


Like I said, I think it's quite satisfying. That's why I didn't write what the answer actually is. :)
- Eddie Kent Woo, Setekh, Steak (of Steaks), AWACS. Seriously, just pick one.
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Offline Grey Wolf

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How are you accounting for the flood, Setekh? Black Sea theory, or the actual Biblical narration?
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline mikhael

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Originally posted by Setekh
Like I said, I think it's quite satisfying. That's why I didn't write what the answer actually is. :)


Oh come on, Steak. You can't expect to have a reasonable conversation based on such circular logic. If q then p, if p then q. Thus p and q must be true. When you have children, you'll be aghast at what sorts of things they'll justify with that kind of logic.
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Offline Setekh

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Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
How are you accounting for the flood, Setekh? Black Sea theory, or the actual Biblical narration?


I'm unfamiliar with the Black Sea theory. Explain?

To be honest, Mik, I never meant it to satisfy anyone else. If a reasonable conversation has to have people disagreeing over a matter and having to make a critical decision on what's better, this or that (when neither is provable to the other), then frankly I've had enough in the past couple of weeks to last me a few years. :)
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Offline mikhael

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In that case, Steak, I'll shut up.
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Offline Setekh

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Don't get me wrong, Mik, I love the discussion. It's just that, I don't know, of late, if I had to paint a picture of HLP, it would be of a scene with everyone just arguing with each other. People are hardly listening to each other - just words flying everywhere, no one getting anywhere. Well, that's how it feels to me.

It concerns me, that's all. :nervous:
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Offline mikhael

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Funny, here I had this idea for a new forum that I was going to bring up with you admins to address that problem. :lol:

I've been enjoying the argument lately. When its not gotten out of hand (cf. Kazan-Liberator), its been amusing and interesting and certainly helpful making my brain work. You're seeing 'argument'. I'm seeing 'healthy debate', for the most part. Sure, there's been a few times where it degenerated into name calling, but the principal participants have managed to pull things back on track, usually.
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Offline HotSnoJ

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Quote
Originally posted by Setekh
It concerns me, that's all. :nervous:
meh, don't get your pants in a bunch. You usally can't just change a persons mind with arguments.

Quote
Well, Christianity has an answer for that which I think is quite satisfying.
How the heck is that circular reasoning? It could be that since Setekh believes the bible to be true, then he also believes that it has a good answer to that question. Or it could also be that since it is a good answer to the question that is a basis for his faith.
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Offline mikhael

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Originally posted by HotSnoJ
How the heck is that circular reasoning? It could be that since Setekh believes the bible to be true, then he also believes that it has a good answer to that question. Or it could also be that since it is a good answer to the question that is a basis for his faith.


Thank you, Hot. You've pretty much defined circular reasoning. ;)
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Setekh
Don't get me wrong, Mik, I love the discussion. It's just that, I don't know, of late, if I had to paint a picture of HLP, it would be of a scene with everyone just arguing with each other. People are hardly listening to each other - just words flying everywhere, no one getting anywhere. Well, that's how it feels to me.

It concerns me, that's all. :nervous:


Welcome to the internet ;)

It's remarkably easy to argue incessantly if you can't see who youtre arguing with, i reckon.........

 

Offline HotSnoJ

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Originally posted by mikhael


Thank you, Hot. You've pretty much defined circular reasoning. ;)
Dangit I said it wrong.

Maybe some php will help me.
$a = "Setekh believes the bible to be true, so then he believes that it has a good answer to that question.";
$b = "Since it is a good answer to the question that is a basis for his faith.";
$reason = setekh("belief");
if($a == $reason)
{
echo("See, it's not so circular after all");
} elseif($b == $reason) {
echo("See, it's not so circular after all");
}
//Or something like that..
//>_>
//<_<
//>_>
I have big plans, now if only I could see them through.

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Offline Gank

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Quote
Originally posted by Setekh
I don't think it's ridiculous at all. The ease with which someone can fabricate a completely unacreditted website far exceeds the same process to create a book.


True, but most people would be able to distinguish between the looney toons sites and those with credability. And having the means and ability to write a book is no reflection on its authenticity. If theres doubts about a websites credability, check up on it, if you can find nothing to back up what it says then treat it with sceptisim, but distrusting all websites because its easy to make a fake one is ridiculous.

Quote
And I challenge you to continue to dig up that huge amount. As for the city at Cambay, I don't see how that contravenes the Bible's version of history. Not to be definitive, but it sounds awfully like it would fit into where the Flood occurred (which is undated in the Bible, but for the fact that it precedes the patriarchs).


Ok, first of all the bible is quite detailed in not only giving a direct line of ancestry from Adam to Jesus but also a lot of lifespans too. So while the time of the flood is undated, its easy enough to get an approximate time. I have a timeline of history here sent to me by an american aunt which traces the history of the world back to Adam and while I cannot say whether whats in it is in the bible or not, its certainly seems to be well researched. Certainly its trying to make the history of the world fit into what the bible portrays it as.

Firstly theres 50 generations between Jesus and Noah. Not all the names have specific dates attached to births etc, but for the most part they seemed to have lived average lifespans (bar a few including Abraham, who apparently had his son Isaac at the age of 100 with his sister :wtf: ). If we allow the same length of time from father to son for every decendant of Jesus we come up with a nice round fgure of 5000 years. This would put the date of the flood at roughly 7,000 bc, 2,500 years after the city in the gulf of cambay was submerged. The book itself gives the date of the flood at 2348bc, with a number of other suggested dates going as high as 3246bc. So no, it doesnt really fit with the description given by the bible. Its possible that the bible describes another flood, or that the timeline in the bible is wrong, but that opens up other questions.

Secondly the time before the bible is well documented, even better than after. Theres ten generations between Noah and Adam, and while all the people mentioned seem too have lived ridiculously long lives (Adam himself was 930 at the time of the deluge, Gen v.5) ten generations is not a lot of people when you consider that the first generation consisted of 2 people. How reasonable is it to suggest that a ten mile square city could have been constructed in that time, which not only was built thousands of miles away from the supposed site of the garden of eden but was unremarkable enough to earn no mention in the bible.  

Either way it doesnt fit.

As for other evidence, you've got to be kidding me. Wtf are dinosaurs?

btw Seketh, I'm not an aethist, but I don't like stuff that doesnt add up.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 07:59:53 pm by 723 »

 

Offline mikhael

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Originally posted by Gank
Ok, first of all the bible is quite detailed in not only giving a direct line of ancestry from Adam to Jesus but also a lot of lifespans too. So while the time of the flood is undated, its easy enough to get an approximate time. I have a timeline of history here sent to me by an american aunt which traces the history of the world back to Adam and while I cannot say whether whats in it is in the bible or not, its certainly seems to be well researched. Certainly its trying to make the history of the world fit into what the bible portrays it as.


I dunno. Whose version of Jesus bloodline are you trusting? There's at least two mutually contradictory versions in the Bible, depending on which Gospel you're reading. IIRC one is a couple generations shorter than the other, and don't agree on the differences between them.

Oh and also, I believe that Jesus is only traced back as far as David. I don't know if David's bloodline is traced back to Adam.
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Offline Grey Wolf

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Quote
Originally posted by Setekh


I'm unfamiliar with the Black Sea theory. Explain?

To be honest, Mik, I never meant it to satisfy anyone else. If a reasonable conversation has to have people disagreeing over a matter and having to make a critical decision on what's better, this or that (when neither is provable to the other), then frankly I've had enough in the past couple of weeks to last me a few years. :)
Here you go, Setekh. The Black Sea theory, curteousy of the fine writers at National Geographic: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/ax/frame.html

Personally, I think that this makes much more sense than the story of Noah, and that the Big Bang and evolution make more sense than the Creation story. Basically, I ignore everything before Exodus.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 09:23:29 pm by 102 »
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline HotSnoJ

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael


I dunno. Whose version of Jesus bloodline are you trusting? There's at least two mutually contradictory versions in the Bible, depending on which Gospel you're reading. IIRC one is a couple generations shorter than the other, and don't agree on the differences between them.
j00 are wrong. One is of Joseph's bloodline and the other is Mary's.
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Offline Gank

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael


I dunno. Whose version of Jesus bloodline are you trusting? There's at least two mutually contradictory versions in the Bible, depending on which Gospel you're reading. IIRC one is a couple generations shorter than the other, and don't agree on the differences between them.

Oh and also, I believe that Jesus is only traced back as far as David. I don't know if David's bloodline is traced back to Adam.


Well, like I said I cant vouch for its correctness. I dont really see how a couple of generations makes much difference though, particularly when the bible states man was created on the seventh day (or was it sixth) and theres evidence of life on earth for at least a couple of hundred million years.

Just for posterity I'll give the line from Adam to Jesus:
Adam - seth - enos- cainin - mahalaleel - jared - enoch - methuselah - lamech - noah - shem - arphaxad - salah - heber - peleg - reu - serug - nahor - terah - abraham - isaac - jacob - judah - pharez - esrom - aram - aminadab - nashon - salmon - boaz - obed - jesse - soloman - rehoboam - abijah - asa - jehoshophat - jehoram - uzziah - jotham - ahaz - hezekiah - manasseh - amon - josiah - jeconiah - salatheil - zerubbabel - abuid - eliakim - azor - sadoc - achim - eluid - eleazar - matthan - jacob - joseph - Jesus

 

Offline HotSnoJ

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It would interesting to note that those may not be father-son lines, but more like (some distant great) grandfather-son lines.
I have big plans, now if only I could see them through.

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Offline diamondgeezer

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Best part of four billion years, as it happens :)