[Zeronet]

The reason for a lack of perfect world, i believe is widely explained by the existance of free will.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Zeronet
The reason for a lack of perfect world, i believe is widely explained by the existance of free will.

No, the simple reason is that perfection doesn't exist.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Goober5000
They wouldn't have known it was evil, but they would have known that they were disobeying God.  God meant for humans to live in blissful ignorance of evil and its consequences.  If you're obeying God and things are going swimmingly, why do anything different?

Yeah but if they didn't know right from wrong how would they know that eating the apple (and therefore disobeying God) was bad.

For that matter why did God leave the tree lying about in the first place unless getting them to eat from it was part of his plan.

I might tell kids not to eat cookies from the cookie jar but if I've got half a brain I know that putting the cookie jar away where they can't reach it is a good idea.

I've never understood how anyone can believe that getting Adam and Eve to eat from the tree wasn't planned all along.

Originally posted by Goober5000
Maybe he didn't mean for them to.  Who can say?  But this doesn't preclude good things for them in the afterlife.

This is why I say he comes off as a bit of a bastard.  He allows Satan do whatever he wants so he can win his bet and afterwards he doesn't even bother to put right what Satan made wrong. He acts with total disregard for the results of his inaction.

[TrashMan]

@Mik - You can understand God?
Mik, You can even define pefection! (You have no reference point, since NOTHING in this world is perfect and definitions aren't valid as negations - i.e., "pefect is everything that is not unperfect" is not a  valid definition).
A mind that created the whole universe if far beyond anyones understanding...


@Ghostavo
- There are no contradictions there... Read it again!

- Well, look at it this way...If there is a God, then I'll go to heaven, if there isn't, then I'm at least doing some good becouse of my religion....
I'll take beliving in afterlife over beliving in nothingness
(except beeing worm-food at the end) any day!


@Tiara -
Religion admitts it's wrong in it's actions sometimes, but never in it's teachings, for they are not wrong...and science can't prove them wrong...
And that heretic thing is mostly gone (except in some radical countries)

@Kaz - There have been miracoaulus healings... Vatican is very strict about those things and a whole Gathering of surgeons, doctors and specialist is consulted before proclaiming a healing a miracle. The Pope himself is living proof of that.
Doctors are saying he should have been completely paralyzed or dead for years now...

And...Kaz...you have no proof of the opposite either...

@kajorama - Adam and Eve are symbolic...get over it...
And why bring people back to life when they're better off in paradise?

[Tiara]

Originally posted by TrashMan
@Tiara -
Religion admitts it's wrong in it's actions sometimes, but never in it's teachings, for they are not wrong...and science can't prove them wrong...
And that heretic thing is mostly gone (except in some radical countries)

Eh, sociological studies prove the teachings wrong day by day. But to explain that it'd take time. I'll write that up when its not after midnight

Eh, the heretic thing was just a figure of speech. What I meant was that anyone disagreeing with them are considered to be "bad". Some forms of Christian religion even say non-believers will go to hell.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by karajorma
For that matter why did God leave the tree lying about in the first place unless getting them to eat from it was part of his plan.

He wanted them to choose whether or not to obey him.  If the tree wasn't in the garden there would have been no opportunity to make a choice.

Originally posted by Kazan
who CLAIM to have beem miracullously healed -- what they _THINK_ and what is reality are two different things

A good friend of mine knew somebody with a really serious back problem.  He wasn't able to lift heavy objects and when he walked he could only do so with great pain.  He was healed when the two of them went to ministry school and now he can run around and play backyard football.  Are you saying he had to have imagined that?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
@kajorama - Adam and Eve are symbolic...get over it...

If you don't believe in them fine. Your choice. Not all christians interpret the bible the way you do though.  I want to hear the answer of some one who does believe they were real. Otherwise I wouldn't even pose the question.

Originally posted by TrashMan
And why bring people back to life when they're better off in paradise?

Jesus did it didn't he? Besides if you're using that arguement why doesn't God just wipe out everyone and be done with it?

[Kazan]

TrashMan: Not having evidence to the countrary is not evidence for -- you must have evidence for something _PERIOD_ for it to be rational to belief in it.

You have no evidence - and not all "surgeons" are all they're rumped up to be - you can get a religiously insane surgeon to sign off.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Goober5000
He wanted them to choose whether or not to obey him.  If the tree wasn't in the garden there would have been no opportunity to make a choice.

And the mortal sin of temptation was created by the hand of God himself

[Ghostavo]

TrashMan, first you say that god is beyond science and logic and that no mortal can possibly come even a bit close to understanding him, but then you engage on a discussion about how religion understands god and how you got proof and other things, then you tell that god created the laws of physics and that he uses them to operate in the world... if you still think there are no contradictions, please rethink your ideas...

[DragonClaw]

Knowing God and knowing about God are two entirely different things. It's impossible to know and understand God. It's entirely possible to know about Him.


What I don't understand is how you people can be content with believing a completely bogus idea. Big bang, for example. Where did that mass come from that exploded? Existed forever? Anything that exists forever can not change, a simple law. So, by exploding, that mass changed. And something can not be created out of nothing, without some external force. If nothing ever existed, than how in hell did this universe come to exist?

And whatever it is, there has to be something eternal. The universe came from something, or its in some continual time loop that some people believe. I don't understand why people would want to believe that, though. It's like saying you don't have a purpose in life.

[Ghostavo]

You mean like believing in god?

Actually, from what I understand about the theory, matter and anti-matter was created in that instant... matter had something which I can't pronounce in english but I assume it is correct to say that it outlasted anti-matter which then when the universe calmed down there was much more matter than anti-matter and... here we are!!

[Tiara]

Originally posted by DragonClaw
What I don't understand is how you people can be content with believing a completely bogus idea. Big bang, for example. Where did that mass come from that exploded? Existed forever?

The EXACT same thing can be said for god.

And whatever it is, there has to be something eternal. The universe came from something, or its in some continual time loop that some people believe. I don't understand why people would want to believe that, though. It's like saying you don't have a purpose in life.

You ****ting me right? You actually believe that pile of donkey-on-spacecrack **** you just produced?

[jdjtcagle]

I'm a Christian, but just a correction, the Big Bang does go on forever it collapses and the blows again.  tho, its my faith in God when I say I don't believe in these theories, that were not smart enough to figure it out, as Mel Gibson once said.
On your case it would be able to put it "what started the Big Bang":)

[Ghostavo]

Oh forgot to say something, knowing about god and understanding him are the same in my previous question, as how could have you come to those conclusions if you don't know him entirely? You can't say you know or understand him, so...

[jdjtcagle]

OH and forgot to mention one thing,  NOTHING MAKES SENSE , NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND YOUR NOT SMART ENOUGH TO ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! well I have said that.

[DragonClaw]

Originally posted by Tiara
The EXACT same thing can be said for god.

What? The bogus part? Or the eternal part?  
Bogus: It's far more believable in my opinion than some BS logic concerning a random explosion that generated an orderly system of existance.
Eternal: Yes, I do believe God is eternal and unchanging. The Bible says so itself on a repetitive basis.

Originally posted by Tiara
You ****ting me right? You actually believe that pile of donkey-on-spacecrack **** you just produced?

I fail to see what you find irrational.

Originally posted by jdjtcagle
I'm a Christian, but just a correction, the Big Bang does go on forever it collapses and the blows again.

Yes, that's what I was referring to when I said 'continual time loop'.


You will not, and never find, solid proof of a God, or the lack of a God. That is why it's a faith issue. If you choose not to believe, than that is fine for you. Although I'd personally rather have insurance.

And I can say I know about God because of what He has revealed of Himself.

[Ghostavo]

Who said anything about big crunch? The universe doesn't have enough mass which by proof I give you that the velocity betwen galaxies is increasing so, it is not going to happen... sorry.

And how do you know god is who he supposedly tells you he is?

[Bobboau]

What I don't understand is how you people can be content with believing a completely bogus idea. God, for example. Where did God come from? Existed forever?

[jdjtcagle]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
Who said anything about big crunch? The universe doesn't have enough mass which by proof I give you that the velocity betwen galaxies is increasing so, it is not going to happen... sorry.

And how do you know god is who he supposedly tells you he is?

AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOBODY ****ING KNOWS AND NEVER WILL.
this bickering is pointless!!:mad: