Originally posted by Ghostavo
Then there's a problem with that definition... everything in nature is exactly what is supposed to be... terrorists are exactly who they are supposed to be (terrorists). If that definition was true, everyone is supposed to be perfect!! If this is not what you wanted to express then what is a man/woman supposed to be? If that is the case then why are we all not perfect? Or at least some of us... or even only one person in the whole world? And what is god supposed to be? And isn't death itself imperfection? Isn't the purpose of man/woman to live?
Good questions.
The answer is basically this: whether something counts as perfect or not depends on what criteria the thing is being judged against. Lets say I have a laptop computer. Now, if I am a businessman on the go all the time, a laptop is perfect for my needs. But, if I am a gamer who wants an easily upgradable power machine, a laptop is far from perfect for me.
So it is with people, too. If you ask al-Qaeda what a "perfect terrorist" is, they have a particular answer, and they probably know lots of people who fit the bill. However, in our discussion, what matters is what God thinks. In his opinion, humans are never supposed to be terrorists. Thus, measured against God's criteria, there can be no perfect terrorists.
So when our question is "Is X a perfection according to God's criteria?", the rest of the matters you bring up fall into place. We probably both have a fairly good idea of what God thinks people are supposed to be, so it should be easy to know what to do with those issues.
In your definition sure it is possible... but that is not exactly what I was asking. I fear this has to do with my strange/"imperfect" definition of perfect (aka "godlike"). But even so please "enlighten" me on the matters I expressed and will express in this post.
Ah, okay. Godlike. Now I know what you were trying to say. Well, no, of course none of us can be the same as how God is: he's the creator, we are created; he's infinite, we're finite; he's omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, we are none of those; etc., etc., etc. We do reflect some of God's qualities, however. He is loving, we are (or can be) loving; he's creative, we are (or can be) creative; he knows and understands all things, we can know and understand some things; etc. So if you mean godlike in the sense of being the same as he is, the of course no one else can be godlike. If someone meant godlike in the sense of reflecting some of his qualities, then they could say people can be godlike, but in the meaning I think you intend, no.
2 - Everything is caused by something. If that is your true definition of free will, it can't exist. You very existence is caused by something happening. You opinion will always depend on something happening.
Is everything caused by something? At least one thing has to have no cause: if everything had to have a cause, nothing would exist--something has to "just be there." In particular, God can have no cause. If he had a cause, he wouldn't be God. The thing that caused him might be the real God, but he wouldn't be.
But if we can have one, why not more? Our universe is complicated: some things exist as part of a chain of cause and effect (physical objects especially), and some things are sources of those chains of cause and effect (God's will, angels/demons' wills, human wills, probably some animals' wills). The fact that I exist is something that is caused. However, now that I exist, my choices can be sources of chains of cause and effect that themselves are not caused by anything.
Like I said to Aldo, God's put a bit of the "divine spark of life" into each of us. Just as he is the great source of causation, so also are we little sources.
3 - Yes... my mistake. So god can become imperfect...
Well, I suppose in theory he could, if he decided not to be what he himself thought he should be. But that seems like a pretty academic, hypothetical sort of question--I'm not too worried about it happening.
Another off discussion question. Why didn't god create more inteligent animals (not quantity, quality)?
Well, no matter how intelligent he made his creations, they could always be more so. And actually, there is pretty good reason to think that we were wiser and more intelligent before the Fall.
If you go over our earlier posts up until now, you'll notice that I kept refering to humanity "as originally created," and that that is what I have been talking about. This is because I have been very particularly
not talking about humans as they are now. The Christian teaching is that we are no longer all that we we meant to be, and that this affects every aspect of our being. We are still something like what God made us to be, but we are broken. Our free will is no longer entirely free; our bodies live, but get sick and die; our minds no longer have the same wisdom and intelligence they once did. All parts of us are corrupted.
Note - I'm only here to discuss, learn about this and maybe if lucky teach. I'm not here to critisise any belief system as I would have the rights to do so.
I commend you for that, Ghostavo.
A heart that wants to listen and learn is a rare find. I am happy we have been talking. I have learned from it, too.
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