Poll

Which higher power do you worship?

God and/or Jesus
29 (32.2%)
Allah
2 (2.2%)
Shiva, Vishnu and et al
0 (0%)
Buddah (doesn't really count as worship, I know)
5 (5.6%)
The State (communist/nazi idea IIRC)
0 (0%)
Science
6 (6.7%)
The Almighty Dollar
2 (2.2%)
I don't worship ANY invisible dude(s) in the sky - AKA atheist/agnostic
38 (42.2%)
Bill Gates
2 (2.2%)
Other
6 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 88

Voting closed: February 26, 2004, 10:54:00 am

Author Topic: Religion in the modern world  (Read 82371 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Religion in the modern world
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
I recall some scientist doing a interesting calculation...
At the very begining of the universe, in the very micro-seconds after the big bang, there was a 1:billion chance that atoms will be formed in a way to allow the universe as we know to exist - t o allow planets and life to be created at all - and yet it happened....
Coincidance or God?


Coincidence. Nothing more.

It's amazing the number of people who use this arguement but the arguement is very poor because quite simply had the universe not turned out this way we would not be here to notice. It's quite possible there have been countless universes that failed. Until you can prove that is incorrect the coincidence arguement is dead in the water.
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Offline Kazan

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all arguments based upon probability are irrelevant.


Basically you made the "universe is soo fit to us!" argument - which is normally in the form "the planet is so fit to us!"

WRONG WAY AROUND

We are fit to the planet
We are fit to the universe
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Offline Grey Wolf

Religion in the modern world
Quote
Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of aldo_14


Well, how do you knowest the big bang wast the first?  Maybe t'was just the first successfull Big Bang - maybe there were billions or trillions of Big Bangs, which failed.  Assuming there wast a big bang, of course - i'm not sure we can ever knowest or prove how the universe wast created.
Of course, that assumes that there is a Big Bang/Big Crunch cycle. I personally prefer the slow energy death model present in the other two possibilities (insufficient mass causes the growth to never stop/exact mass required for equilibrium).
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Offline castor

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Religion in the modern world
Btw, why exactly is it that an universe building out of a singularity has a different life each round?
Is it the amount of energy that changes (if so, wouldn't the pulsating universe die off, sooner or later)?
I guess the "variable" must anyway exist within the singularity, if that is all that exists.
Edit: probably the answer lies in the quantum theory, in that it is probabilistic.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2004, 06:44:37 pm by 638 »

 

Offline Grey Wolf

Religion in the modern world
The amount of matter/energy in the universe never changes. The Law of Matter/Energy Conservation: Matter/energy can be neither created or destroyed. And yes, I know I wrote matter/energy, that is indeed the proper term.
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Offline castor

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Religion in the modern world
There art some points in the idea of "pulsating universe" that I never had the energy to clarify to myself.
E.g, how do the photons emitted like 15 billion years before the collapse end up "falling" into the singularity?

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Of course, that assumes that there is a Big Bang/Big Crunch cycle. I personally prefer the slow energy death model present in the other two possibilities (insufficient mass causes the growth to never stop/exact mass required for equilibrium).

:nod:

Well, yeah.  I just couldn't remember the other theories :)

 

Offline Sesquipedalian

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Religion in the modern world
Sorry, RL dragged me away for a few days. :)

Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
3) What I meant to say that something was caused by itself is for example, a property of one object makes it do something, such as an electron being atracted by a proton due to it's charge. It's parcially right I knowest because the proton also atracts the electron.
Okay, so what you mean is that an object's behaviour is partially explained by characteristics it has.  That is different from saying that something causes its own existence, which is the issue.


Quote
No, I said that if free will exists as you told before, then everything has free will.
Why would everything need to have free will for free will to exist?  Rocks don't need to have free will.  Hamburgers don't need to have free will.  Free will only needs to be had be some entities, according to what I said.

Quote
4 - There is a problem with that, as the brain not only "controls" the body but also "gathers" a variety of information. There art cases whither people with a part of the brain damaged art unable to remember short term events. How dost the soul/body thing explains that?
When I was trying to write out the Hebrew understanding, I think I said it best right at the end, when I said that the brain is the means by which the mind is manifested in the world. Without the brain, the mind would be unable to interact with this world, neither knowing it nor affecting it.  You could say that the brain gives flesh to the mind.  But it would be better to say that there is really only one thing, and that this thing is simultaneously material and spiritual.

Often, when people suffer brain damage partway through life, they complain afterwards that their minds can't interact with the world the way they did before.  They'll get really frustrated and say "Argh!  I should be able to do this.  I used to be able to."  They'll sometimes complain that it feels like they can't bring back things they know they know, or that they can't learn things they know they should be able to learn.  To the Hebrew understanding, what is happening here is this:  the damage to the brain kills some of it, which causes the mind/soul/spirit/whatever-you-want-to-call-it to be torn apart from the physical world.  When we die, this tearing apart becomes complete--what was meant to be one seamless entity is ripped apart, and our physical bodes die while our spirits (or rather, the shreds of our spirits) descend to what the Hebrew's called Sheol to await resurrection (when our bodies will be raised to life, and reunited with our spirits to make one whole being again).


Quote
5 - Read more carefully what I posted, I talked about that eventuality. See Bob. If his decision manifests itself even after his crime, than perfection is impossible after being imperfect. So, concluding, no one can become perfect.
What he did will never magically disappear, no.  But remember what we said earlier, that whether something is perfect depends on what it is supposed to be.  If the criteria of what the thing is supposed to be change, so does its status regarding perfection/imperfection.  The Christian promise that we will be made perfect at the resurrection is the promise that God will make us to be what he now wants us to be.  The original objectives (e.g. that we should never sin, nor die) get replaced with new ones (e.g. that we never sin again, nor die again).

Am I being clear in my explanation?

Quote
History is a branch of science, philosophy is basicly logic, art and emotional relationships art now being "discovered" by science and physical experience is basicly what simple science is all about really.
History is not a branch of science at all.  In higher education, fields of study are broadly classified into two categories: the sciences and the humanities.  The first includes things like genetic biology, electrical enginneering, mathematics, and so on.  The second includes literature, law, philosophy, and so on.  History is always classified under the humanities category.

Logic is only one tool available to the philosopher.  Philosophers use many other mental faculties than just their sense of logic.  Creative intuition, for example, is indispensible to philosophy.  Logic can analyse ideas, but it takes creativity to come up with new ideas and new ways of seeing things.

The sort of "discovery" of art and emotion by science that you mention is, to be specific, the recognition by scientists and philosophers of science that scientific knowledge is not the be-all and end-all of knowledge.   Simply said, people are starting to recognise that science can only tell you about some things, and that you need e.g. art to tell you about others.

With physical experience, I meant that knowing how to ride a bike is not the same as conducting many experiments about the physics of bicycle riding.  I can run tests on a bicycle and its rider, and then I'll know about riding a bicycle.  But I won't know how to ride a bicycle until I get on and learn to do it.  Theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge are not the same thing.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2004, 01:48:08 am by 448 »
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Offline TrashMan

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Religion in the modern world
All that talk of pefection is meaningless....we are not perfect, nor have we ever been perfect. You can argue for the next cantury about your views and theories of perfection, but it will change squat...

The Big Cycle theory sucks. Recent studies showed it cannot stand... So the coincidence theory is quite valid...
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Offline Tiara

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Religion in the modern world
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
All that talk of pefection is meaningless....we are not perfect, nor have we ever been perfect.

Just look at the grammar on this board :p
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