Author Topic: Why Bush will be reelected  (Read 9079 times)

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Offline Ghostavo

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Why Bush will be reelected
Opinion:
- a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty;
- a message expressing a belief about something;
- etc...

Truth:
- a fact that has been verified;
- conformity to reality or actuality;
- the quality of nearness to the truth or the true value;
- a true statement
- etc...

As for the marriage things... imagine most of our society was mostly composed of gay people... couldn't they make it wrong to have a non-gay marriage for the same reasons you might display here? :hopping:
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

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Offline mikhael

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Why Bush will be reelected
My hero, Ambrose Bierce, defines "truth" and "truthful" thusly:
Quote
TRUTH, n. An ingenious compound of desirability and appearance. Discovery of truth is the sole purpose of philosophy, which is the most ancient occupation of the human mind and has a fair prospect of existing with increasing activity to the end of time.

TRUTHFUL, adj. Dumb and illiterate.

For the humor impaired, Bierce was being cynical and sarcastic. These were not his, nor are they my, beliefs.

Quote
From HotSnoj:
Well then what set of ideal are we going to use as the basis for our laws?

How about on something as simple as the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have done to you." Before you claim this as a judeo-christian principle, I should point out that this sentiment pops up in cultures across the globe from the dawn of time. Aztecs and Mayans expressed it. North American Indians expressed it. Confuscius espouses it in the Analects. Buddha suggested it. So did Jesus. South African Bushmen use the Golden rule in their oral traditions about justice, as do the aboriginal peoples of Australia.

So, since I don't want to be murdered, and neither do you, how about as a group we decide that murder is pretty much a bad thing? I don't want anyone stealing my stuff and neither do you, so lets just not allow murder. I don't want anyone telling me how to live my private life, and I'm sure neither do you, so lets keep our noses out of other people's bedrooms.

That's the real basis of human morals and legal systems, Hot. Not some crusty book that only 1/3rd of the population of the world adheres to.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 12:37:26 pm by 440 »
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Offline Kazan

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Offline Ghostavo

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Why Bush will be reelected
Quote
Not some crusty book that only 1/3rd of the population of the world adheres to.


Believe it or not it's actually 1/5th!! :D
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

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Offline mikhael

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Why Bush will be reelected
Kazan, you're my hero! :)

From Kazan's article:
Quote
Bush has cast the union between male and female as the only proper form of marriage, or what he called in his State of the Union address "one of the most fundamental, enduring institutions of our civilization."

American anthropologists say he's wrong.

"Rather, anthropological research supports the conclusion that a vast array of family types, including families built upon same-sex partnerships, can contribute to stable and humane societies," the association's statement said, adding that the executive board "strongly opposes a constitutional amendment limiting marriage to heterosexual couples."

And:
Quote
The statement was proposed by Dan Segal, a professor of anthropology and history from Pitzer College in Claremont (Los Angeles County), who called Bush's conception of the history of marriage "patently false."

"If he were to take even the first semester of anthropology, he would know that's not true," said Segal, a member of the anthropological association's Executive Committee.

And:
Quote
Segal pointed to "sanctified same-sex unions in the fourth century in Christianity" and to the Greeks and Romans applying the concept of marriage to same-sex couples, not to mention the Native American berdache tradition in which males married males.
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Offline Liberator

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Why Bush will be reelected
I am not going to try to explain it myself, instead I provide a quote and link for your pleasure

Quote
The Supreme Court has taken Jefferson's "separation" clause (divorced from Jefferson's own explanation of the phrase) and used it to create a new, and completely arbitrary, interpretation of the First Amendment.


http://www.jeremiahproject.com/ch_state.html
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Kazan

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Why Bush will be reelected
Liberator: your site is biased, completely and totally irrevleant, and your irrational assault upon common sense and the opinion of the SCOTUS

who taught you how to debate? really you should be embarassed!
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Offline Liberator

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Why Bush will be reelected
I never claimed to be a trained Debater.

The SCOTUS is the problem.  Read the site again.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Kazan

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Why Bush will be reelected
I know you're accusing the SCOTUS of being the problem - you're accusing of them of "blah blah blah left wing activist blah blah bull**** horse**** dog**** liberator's site is a dumb****"


You are so deadset on denying people their human rights - you are deadset upon bigotry - you are deadset upon forcing your FAITH on other people.  


JUSTIFY yourself - PERSONALLY you May not link to a site, you may not refer to the statements of others.  You MUST justify your actions or you must be silent and stop interfering with other people's lives and rights.


The "Seperation of Church and State" statement is an applied statement - ie it is the applied usage of the first ammendment ot the US constitution - it establishes said seperation by stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".
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Offline mikhael

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Why Bush will be reelected
I will go into it, Liberator, and in detail.

Nice dramatic article. "Christians are the enemy!", it says. "Oh, we poor persecuted followers of Jesus! The rest of the world is out to get us!" is the tone. Please. Christians aren't the enemy. They never were. Theocratic rulership is the enemy.

I notice that the article draws a dilineation between "freedom of religion" and "freedom from religion". This is a false dichotomy. Freedom of religion includes, intrinsically, freedom from religion.

Further, the article says, "The Leftist social liberals continue to harangue on the 'separation of church and state' as justification for eliminating religious issues from public view." This is incorrect. No one wants to eliminate religious views from public view. That would be tyrrany. However, they do want to keep religion out of government. You can have your views, but the GOVERNMENT may not endorse any religious views. This is explicitly stated in the Constitution's Bill of Rights: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." That means that A) you can't use government to shove your religious views down the nation's throat, and B) neither of us can stop the other from endorsing our religious views as individuals. Its very simple, really.

The article goes on to, almost verbatim, quote one of the logical fallacies, false dillema. "If you're not for us, you're against us", or in the case of the article, "If a biblical moral system is not being legislated, then an immoral system is being legislated". The falsehood lies in the idea that the Bible is the only source of morals, or moral systems. The only way you can argue that the Bible is the sole source of morality is by arguing from a position of faith. You cannot legislate faith, and thus you cannot use the Bible as a sole foundation for a legal system under the Constitution. The article needs to stay away from Jefferson. As a deist, his views are certainly not in line with the articles author. Jefferson believed that men had natural moral instincts and therefore all religions had something in common; only the traditions and dogmas were different.

The article goes on to complain of Supreme Court Justice Black's interpretation of the First Amendment. In this, the article fails to recognize the purpose, as laid out in the very same Constitution, of the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Someone must interpret the Constitution, and it cannot be anyone who actually makes the laws. That would be a conflict of interest.  To whit, Article 3, section 2: "The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority..." The SCOTUS exists to uphold and interpret the Constitution. Black's interpretation of the first Amendment whilst not agreeable to some, was well within both his authority and power. This decision does not restrict the rights of the people in any way.
You and I are unfettered: we can express our religious views any time we want, any way we want. However, a government office may endorse NO religous views. Whilst serving as President, you may be a Christian, but the Presidency remains a secular post and must always remain so.

The next section of the article discusses the Jefferson and his beliefs. Here, the article and its author are on very shaky ground. Jefferson has a lot to say on religion:
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
And:
"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians."-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789
And:
"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent."-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
And:
"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Most particularly, the article speaks to a very specific quote, in which Jefferson "assured the Danbury Baptist Association that the First Amendment guaranteed that there would be no establishment of any one denomination over another." It goes on to interpret Jeffersons words as being one way: that government could never control religion, but religion could control government. This interpretation goes solidly against Jefferson's own words. The full quote from the Danbury letter is:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
Jefferson's statement saying "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God..." puts the "wall" firmly in the two-way role. Neither can the government establish religion, but neither can the Church use government to intervene in what "lies solely between man and his God". If any religion is allowed to manipulate government, then the government can manipulate religion. To protect your beliefs from mine and mine from yours, the government and state must be entirely seperate. THAT is the true nature of Jefferson's wall. Your article is, in fact and in spirit, entirely wrong on this point.

As this point is absolutely central to the entire article, the article is in fact, flawed in conception and execution.
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Why Bush will be reelected
Quote
Originally posted by Corsair
I just saw a story on AOHell news which said that the same Iranian radio station which first reported the capture of Saddam is now saying that the U.S. captured Osama "a long time ago" and that Rumsfeld's recent visit to Afghanistan had to do with the "arrest".

If this is true, and the public hasn't been informed, then Bush will keep Osama as the ace up his sleeve until September, then produce him claiming that he has just been captured, and win the election. And the U.S. gets four more years of right-wing militarism. :sigh:


I have never heard such a thing. Didn't we catch Iran trying to buy nuclear weapons or something along those lines. If so, that's why this station is putting out such lies. We have not caputred Osama, but we have him on the ropes.

Capturing Osama will still be extremely difficult. He could be anywhere in this vast semi-wilderness on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border, hidden away in a village or

Quote
But him admitting being a Born Again Christian is. Especially when one of the goals of these christian is to annihilate Islam at large ( monthly "Mother Jones" magazine as source for that).
Religious war = Fundamentalism.

Bush has nothing to do with these radical organizations. Even many fundies aren't trying to wipe out Islam as a religion. Besides, what kind of idiot would use Mother Jones as your main source of political information? They're about as far left as the Ku Klux Klan is far right (before you start talking about Mother Jones not burning crosses in people's yards in stuff, remember that most Klan chapters are all talk and no action nowadays as well).

Also, religious war is not fundamentalism. The Catholics launched Crusades against Islam in the Middle Ages, but with their bloated bureaucracy and piles of organized doctrines and rituals, they were the antithesis of fundamentalist Christians. Read a ****ing dictionary.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 02:02:11 pm by 1099 »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline Liberator

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Why Bush will be reelected
It separates the Government from the Church.  At the time(late 18th, early 19th) people were afraid of one denomination(Puritans, Anglicans, Quakers,ect.) becoming dominant and requiring, through Government decree, that all others become subject to the dominant denomination, like what had happened in England with the Anglican Church.  

Jefferson, mentioned something about it in one of the Federalist Papers, which can and should be used to understand the motivations of the Founders.

But, as stated on the linked site, it wasn't until 1947 that your preciious SCOTUS overstretched it boundaries.

The Purpose of your precious SCOTUS is to interpret the Constitution as it pertains to the case they are hearing, not changing the meaning of the document they are sworn to uphold.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

  

Offline mikhael

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Why Bush will be reelected
Liberator, to further address your article's misapporpriation of Thomas Jefferson (the man must be spinning in his grave), I offer the following from a biography of the man as well as some quotes. People like the author of that article need to be very careful about what spirits they conjure up. The dead sometimes have voices of their own, and can be far more eloquent then you know:

Quote

As an amateur scientist, Jefferson believed in the freedom of inquiry about God, and thought that it was a blasphemy to believe that religion could not stand the test of reason. He feared that when political power and the Church allied, freedom of free inquiry suffered.

Jefferson argued, "…. history I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government."

Jefferson's idea about the unity of God and what the real truth about religion was based upon led him to embrace Unitarian beliefs. Unitarianism is a religious movement that imposes no specific creed on its members. Each person is helped and encouraged to discover his or her own truth and meaning in life, and to practice tolerance towards the views of others. Unitarians stress that Jesus was a man whose teaching is to be followed, but he was not necessarily a God to be worshipped.


And some more quotes:
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.--Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.


I'm sorry. I wax worshipful when it comes to Jefferson. He, more than anyone else in the history of this country, represents the embodiment of 'America' and what it means to be an 'American'. His words still echo through history and find resonance today. His legacy of ideas are as powerful today as when he first wrote them at the dawn of our nation.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 02:22:54 pm by 440 »
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Offline Grey Wolf

Why Bush will be reelected
Let's see. You're advocating against the Judicial branch, one of the three primary branches of government. That would destroy the checks and balances established in the Consitution. Would you prefer a dictatorship instead?
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline mikhael

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Why Bush will be reelected
Quote
Originally posted by Liberator

But, as stated on the linked site, it wasn't until 1947 that your preciious SCOTUS overstretched it boundaries.

The Purpose of your precious SCOTUS is to interpret the Constitution as it pertains to the case they are hearing, not changing the meaning of the document they are sworn to uphold.

My "precious SCOTUS" is created by that Constitution. Without it, there would be no final arbitration of law seperate from the makers of the law. The SCOTUS exists to keep us from that form of tyranny.

You are correct. The SCOTUS is inteded to interpret the Constitution as it pertains to the case they are hearing. And indeed, Justice Black interpretted the Constitution with respect to the case he was hearing at that time: Everson v. Board of Education. His interpretation was that Jefferson's wall "must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach."

You have already stated you agree with the purpose of the SCOTUS. How can you then disagree with the SCOTUS doing exactly what the Constitution charges them to do? Whilst you can disagree with their decision, you cannot argue that they were certainly well within their boundries. To do so would be to contradict yourself.
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Offline Liberator

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Why Bush will be reelected
I don't have a problem with the institution of the Supreme Court.  
My problem with the SCOTUS are the members who make their rulings based on their own moral code or some political agenda instead of the Law.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Why Bush will be reelected
Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
I don't have a problem with the institution of the Supreme Court.  
My problem with the SCOTUS are the members who make their rulings based on their own moral code or some political agenda instead of the Law.


So you'd prefer them to make decisions based on their religious beliefs?

I suppose you'll be wanting Torquemada as chief justice, next?

 

Offline Liberator

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Why Bush will be reelected
No, I want them to rule based on the literal meaning of the law with a little common sense.  No shades of gray meaning or "They actually meant...".

The Founders were among the most intelligent men of their time, I trust them to write exactly what they meant.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Why Bush will be reelected
Quote
Originally posted by Liberator
No, I want them to rule based on the literal meaning of the law with a little common sense.  No shades of gray meaning or "They actually meant...".

The Founders were among the most intelligent men of their time, I trust them to write exactly what they meant.


Doesn't interpreting with 'a little common sense' include 'shades of gray'?

 

Offline Liberator

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Why Bush will be reelected
A little common sense at the Sentencing phase of the trial.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.