[an0n]

The Skarrj dies when you close the game anyway.

[Assassin]

The bare functioning of consciousness would be simple awareness in its most basic form. This requires no emotions, thoughts, or senses.. other than the basic awareness of existance.

As such, I feel every living animal has consciousness. Even those driven purely by instinct. Perhaps even bacteria and plants have consciousness. Perhaps consciousness is the work of something beyond a 'brain'.

Most things we theorise from here are exactly that - theories. We may guess as to what consciousness other organisms have by observing their behaviour. But ultimately, we are stuck inside our own human minds and may never know.

its really an 'out there' thing.

Jack

[Fineus]

And the Tamagotchi dies when you remove the battery...

At the end of the day - for me at least - I choose to act with compassion in the direction of living animal and plant matter. I have not worked out my own philosophies to such exact detail that you can now ask "what about treading on grass?" but the general law for me is that anything that is alive deserves my compassion - not necessarily my aid - but if I see a dog suffering I shall feel sorry for it.

Tamagotchis on the other hand, as with all digitally created life at this stage, do not fully experience these emotions. They display them as they were created to (if you shoot a scientist in Half Life it cowers away from you from then on, but that's only because someone programmed it to show that animation instead of any other they could have programmed - indeed if i reprogrammed the game I could have the scientist clap and jump up and down when I shoot it). As for the dog that feels no pain - would I hurt it? No. I would not inflict harm on it even if it did not actually feel whatever I did to it - who am I to do so?

That, at least, is how I try to live. It's not a debate or a question - it's just what I do.

[Levyathan]

One last question, then. If it's a matter of opinion (as you now seem to think), why can you not sympathize with the death of my Tamagotchi (and say so in a public - I guess - forum) while I can't express my own view (which is exactly the same) about the death of someone else's dog?

I know this isn't the appropriate thread for that, but you probably won't make me create a new one to ask one single question.

[an0n]

Let's all just agree that Thunder is wrong and that I should be given admin powers

[Whitelight]

I guess i`ll get in on this one hehe.

Ok if a cat sees a bird, what does it see?

A: a picture in its mind of food , which would be considered primative and not be a thought at all.

B: thinks about catching and eating the bird which would be considered a thought..

(edit) Oh and mammals don`t run on batteries, toys do..

So if it takes a battery it is a toy nothing more, nothing less..

(edit) This toy you speak of is man made, a dog isn`t..

[Rictor]

The trouble is, we have only qualities of consciousness established. Things like congizance, self awareness and rational thought. But we have no way of measuring these, or even establishing if they are at all present in a given organism. Its easy to say a plant is not aware, but do you have any evidence to back this up?

We know that all people with blue shirts are conscious, but we are blind, so we don't really know who is wearing what colour shirt. See?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor
The trouble is, we have only qualities of consciousness established. Things like congizance, self awareness and rational thought. But we have no way of measuring these, or even establishing if they are at all present in a given organism. Its easy to say a plant is not aware, but do you have any evidence to back this up?

We know that all people with blue shirts are conscious, but we are blind, so we don't really know who is wearing what colour shirt. See?

That's true, but we don't know what the percepts of a plant are.  We do for something like a tamagotchi, becuase we created both those percepts and specified either the reacitons themselves, or how those reactions are created.

Of course, you could say that the search for understanding consciousness is a fundamental element of the human condition.

[Whitelight]

Yeah well I just threw that in for good measure..

My point is that a toy has no life, it is how you say man made.

Aldo has a good point there.

[Fineus]

Kinda finishing up my part in this thread (may still post, but not as much)...

Levyathan - I can sympathise with the loss of a dog more than I can sympathise with the "death" of a Tamagotchi because...

1 - The dog feels pain, the Tamagotchi does not.
2 - Dogs are (for the sake of rounding things up) programmed with more advanced companionship with humans, they provide more positive stimulus for a human being.
3 - I've been through the loss of a dog myself, I can't say the same of a Tamagotchi.
4 - If a dog dies, that's it. Its physical existance decays and its personality ceases to be. If a Tamagotchi dies you reset it or replace its batteries (AFAIK thats how they work?) and you have another go with them. They develop no personality and their physical form remains unchanged. If you were to damage your Tamagotchi then you could buy another one and the difference would be un-detectable.

I hope that helps answer any questions

an0n - no.

[Levyathan]

Originally posted by Kalfireth
Levyathan - I can sympathise with the loss of a dog more than I can sympathise with the "death" of a Tamagotchi because...

That's not an answer to my question. I didn't ask why you sympathized more with a dog than with a Tamagotchi. I asked why was it that you could openly state that you didn't sympathize with a Tamagotchi while I couldn't say that I didn't sympathize with a dog's death.

[Fineus]

Oh I see, well I hope that wasn't the point of the thread - if so I'll be really disappointed. I'll answer your question but don't expect to love the answer...

And to answer your question, a Tamagotchi has not died here - but one of our members dogs did. Given that I know what it's like to lose a dog (mine died on the first day of the summer holidays in school, several years ago) I immediately not only empathised with the loss - but know exactly how I would feel if someone proceeded to tell me that it was unimportant to them.

It's equally true that if a friends father died - it wouldn't directly affect me. It would be unimportant to me. But even if I didn't directly care that he died (and I would, anyones death is a tragic thing.. yes it's part of life etc. but it's still an unpleasent event)... can you imagine what my friends might say to me if I openly voiced that I didn't care that his father died? At the very least I'd be labled an insensitive bastard.

Likewise the death of a complete strangers dog may not rank highly on your list of important things, but the majority would either voice their sorrows - even if they didn't care especially - or not post at all. Posting to specifically say you don't care at all is unnecessary - which is why I told you to shut up as I can imagine that your lack of caring is not needed. The reasoning is no more deep than that - if you can't say something kind or constructive during others difficult times - don't say anything at all.

The End™.

[an0n]

People get attached to Dungeons and Dragons characters. That's how stupid this argument is.

[Fineus]

True, but it's something of a grey area of loss - I could love my table lamp more than anything else in the world. If it was broken I could be heart broken myself. It would matter to me. But I wouldn't post about it on a forum.

A living animal though, or a parent or friend. That I can understand. That is something most people all have in common. At any rate - nobody should post to say it doesnt matter to them at all. Not in this community at any rate. I'm not saying everyone should feel compelled to post about their losses - but if you want to and feel strongly about it then I would not promote people saying "that doesnt matter to me" around here.

[Levyathan]

When it gets down to "I'm right because I say so", it really isn't worth it anymore.

[Fineus]

I told you that you wouldn't like the answer - somehow I get the feeling this entire thread has been a waste of time and that you could've gotten to the point a lot faster.

The end of the matter is indeed that this is not your forum - so if you want to tell people you don't care about the loss - do it elsewhere. If you don't like that it's a little tough isn't it

Now, shall I just lock this and let the whole matter rest - or would you like to try and argue the toss some more? I'm not trying to be hard on you, but I do sympathise a lot more with someone who loses someone they love - over someone who says they don't care for that loss openly. As I said, if you can't be nice in such circumstances - don't say anything at all.

So, lock or no lock?

[Stryke 9]

SPAM!!!

[Martinus]

[color=66ff00]I think the underlying priciples of this discussion have merit but you could argue one case against the other for a long time. *shrugs*
[/color]

[Blaise Russel]

Most things we theorise from here are exactly that - theories. We may guess as to what consciousness other organisms have by observing their behaviour. But ultimately, we are stuck inside our own human minds and may never know.

its really an 'out there' thing.

The trouble is, we have only qualities of consciousness established. Things like congizance, self awareness and rational thought. But we have no way of measuring these, or even establishing if they are at all present in a given organism. Its easy to say a plant is not aware, but do you have any evidence to back this up?

We know that all people with blue shirts are conscious, but we are blind, so we don't really know who is wearing what colour shirt. See?

When it gets down to "I'm right because I say so", it really isn't worth it anymore.

Hey, that's what I said, but I got told off for it.

*grumbles*



'Course, nobody touched my whole side-step of the issue, due to its pointlessness and futility. Ho hum.

[Whitelight]

I`ve never had to deal with the loss of a loved one till my dad died 2 years ago, and the sad part is its like a dream to me, I became numb to it but still miss him..

Being aware that someone will not be in your life anymore is the hardest part of death..

It has torn my family apart and all I could do was to watch it happen..