[Odyssey]

[color=cc9900]The next step is to charge them shoulder-first, of course.[/color]

[TheCelestialOne]

Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900]The next step is to charge them shoulder-first, of course.[/color]

Ah, a nice example on how martial arts is applied correctly:

Side step, chop in the neck. Charging guy goes down.

Again, you can only do this properly if you have sufficient mental control. If your body is pumping with adrenaline and you DON'T have control you will most like my taken down and have your head smashed in.

Now, this may seem like a simple thing to do, but don't underestimate it. It's actually quite hard.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by TheCelestialOne
Stealth, if you know how to apply martial arts the correct way it is most definately an advantage. Even in street fights. I know, I've been there. My years training and learning Jiu-Jitsu surely helped me out a lot when I got into a fight and I've been in quite a few (not that I'm proud of it or anything, on the contrary really).
perhaps you're an excception... either that or you're the .1% that martial arts really helps

It's just that you have to apply it correctly. If you think martial arts is just kicking and punching in some fancy way, you're way off. Most martial arts will allow you to be in control mentally. Which is a very good thing as you can more easily anticipate what your opponent is going to do. Alse, with this you can also more easily dodge incoming blows. On top of that, this also allows you to focus your blows to deal more damage to your opponent.
but as i said, most martial arts ARE just kicking and punching in some fancy way.  practically all American taught martial arts are solely to get fast results, show off, and look cool.

Martial arts also enhances your accuracy and allows you to deal more critical blows to the body of your opponent. Unlike the standard punch of the nose I always strike the side of the neck with the side of my hand. Takes most untrained people out in one blow.
as i said earlier, perhaps you're one of the more advanced martial artists, but in real life, in a street fight, it's not a sparring situation, there's adrenhaline, you're panicking, and your opponent knows no rules of sparring, he just wants to hurt you.  in situations such as this, most "martial artists" forfeit their "training" and use more traditional, instinctive methods (i.e. a punch in the nose).  it takes a well trained martial artist to remain calm and rely on his training in a situation like this

Also, martial arts teaches you how to protect your body from incoming blows. Unlike your typical 'boxing-defence' with two arms up, which only protects the upper body and only to a certain degree as it is a static defence and not a variable/versatile defence, you learn how to protect your entire body.
see above

These are just a few points on how martial arts is a benefit in any fight that doesn't include a gun or long range weapon. I could write up a lot more about this but its late. If you want me to explain more if you have questions, just ask.
i'm afraid my opinions differ from yours.  perhaps it's because you've stuck with the more external styles, while i prefer internal.  if this is the case (which it appears to be) then it just demonstrates the philosophies between external and internal arts

So, Stealth, I take it you never practiced or even remotely studied martial arts and how to apply it effectively? If you ever do, then you can judge it, otherwise just don't.
i took taekwon do for about 2 years, i've studied Baguazhang for the last three years straight, and i've also taken (for very short periods of time) multiple other arts.  i started originally in late 1998 practicing martial arts.  you think you're speaking from experience, well so am i.
 

[pyro-manic]

Lau Gar Kung Fu here. A Southern External style of Kung fu. Been doing it for about 18 months, I'm currently at 3rd Kup (orange sash) level.

I do it for fitness and mental control. Yeah, if some drunken wanker (a fair few of those round here on a weekend )tries something on, I can twat him good, but that's a secondary motivation for me. It keeps me fit, gives me better stamina and balance, and it's fun.

I'd also like to try an internal art (maybe Hsing-I or Taijichuan), and I'm reading about some Japanese weapon arts at the moment (in particular Iaijutsu) because they look really good for coordination and focus.

[Grug]

TheCelestialOne - I agree with everything you've said mate.

For me Martial Arts have been for mental control and fitness. I was surprised at myself the first time I naturally assumed a 'fighting stance' when I sensed danger. Practicing actually did drive it into my brain lol.
TaeKwonDoe being based on self defense

The TaeKwon Doe I do, is the International TaeKwonDoe Federation (ITF), the Korean one, with the founder of this style passing away only a few years back. The style however is seems much more native, with everything having to be learned in English and Korean, and history of patterns etc being based on Korean history...
I would agree to some degree about some of the 'americanized' or 'westernized' versions of martial arts... Like the TKD you see in the Olympics for example. It seems a shame that they break it away from its roots... but eh thats a different story...

nite.

-Grug

[Havock]

Originally posted by TheCelestialOne

Ah, a nice example on how martial arts is applied correctly:

Side step, chop in the neck. Charging guy goes down.

Again, you can only do this properly if you have sufficient mental control. If your body is pumping with adrenaline and you DON'T have control you will most like my taken down and have your head smashed in.

Now, this may seem like a simple thing to do, but don't underestimate it. It's actually quite hard.

*cough*
Sutemi

[Nico]

Originally posted by Turnsky
chair-fu for me..
(the art of using whatever's close by, particularly furniture)

Oh, the light and fast varient of what I use: table-fu
We artists rock, nothing more deadly than trowing a few pen-riken, performing some art-jutsu or fleeing while the opponent tries to get rid of the paint in the eyes

[TheCelestialOne]

Originally posted by Havock


*cough*
Sutemi

*twack*
Thats Aikido

[Stealth]

i never really liked Taekwon do.  actually, i hated it.  too much show, not enough discipline.  

pyro:  i recommend internal arts to everyone i know.  however, if you don't have patience, don't even think about it.  that was one side-effect that i had to learn (patience) because no internal art is fast-paced

[Havock]

Originally posted by TheCelestialOne

*twack*
Thats Aikido

and JiuJitsu.

[TheCelestialOne]

Originally posted by Havock


and JiuJitsu.

Hmmm, I really thought it was Aikido. Well, must've forgotten It's not like I know the name of every move in Jiu-Jitsu

[Dark_4ce]

I did Kendo a few years back. Been actually thinking of doing it again, since it was so much fun whacking people over the head with a bamboo stick!

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by Stealth
pyro:  i recommend internal arts to everyone i know.  however, if you don't have patience, don't even think about it.  that was one side-effect that i had to learn (patience) because no internal art is fast-paced

Yeah, that's the one problem (me is super-lazy ). I'm interested in the mind-control apsects of internal stuff - the Lau style is mostly external, so it's something I could do more of.

Ooh, I forgot - I'm a fencer as well. That's great fun. Not done it for a year now, 'cos of my stupid job, but I'll get back into it before the summer.

[Fineus]

Could someone explain the internal/external thing? Are we talking mental/physical - or something else?

[Stealth]

well basically, there's only a handful of internal martial arts, three to be exact.  they include (names shortened) Bagua, Tai Chi, and Hsing-I.  (note that since the translation between Chinese and English results in sounds, and not literal words, the names of the martial arts can be spelled differently, according to how they sound when the Chinese word is pronounced.  ex:  Bagua could be spelled PaGua, Pa Kua, Bagua, etc.).  Anyway, so there's those three styles of internal, and literally dozens of external.  some of the more common, well known ones include karate, taekwon do, kung-fu styles, jiu jitsu, etc. etc. etc.

External styles generally rely on force,  Slow, gentle, calm, etc are the main characteristics of the internal styles.  In other words, the external stylists train hard to increase their muscular strength while the internal stylists, their qi (life energy) and jing (internal strength).  However, it's unlikely for an art to be classified SOLELY as internal or solely as external, many martial arts have a calm, mediation side of them, and likewise, many internal arts (Tai Chi for instance with its push-hands) have external aspects.  Roughly speaking, the difference between internal and external styles can refer to whether the strength is from the torso and legs (internal) or whether the strength is derived from training of the more specific arm and leg muscles (external); whether the strength is primarily mental, or primary physical.  The word "internal" often connotes a more pliable martial style.  

External styles are generally fast-paced and quick to see results.  A good way to think of it is thinking of a well-performed roundhouse or crescent kick of Taekwon do.  fairly simple to learn, slightly complicated to master, very easy to use.  however, an internal style may be practiced for 10 years before the practicer can "fight".  this is because the internal arts aren't dedicated to fighting, as external are.  Fighting is just an aspect of internal arts.  other aspects include working with the mind, the qi (chi), etc.  When mastered, the internal arts are extremely powerful and effective, in fact they're the most effective, but dedication is vital, since many take martial arts expecting to be able to win fights, and such, internal is not about that.  it's a completely different system

[Martinus]

[color=66ff00]Dude the internal arts are all about fighting, in fact I'd classify them as far more lethal than most other martial arts. The reasoning behind this is that the internal arts were designed to do the maximum damage with the minimum effort. This is the reason why there is no sporting side to the internal arts, a well executed strike could kill. (well in the non watered down versions anyway)

Also I think it's a good idea now to actually clear up the internal/external terminology. Internal styles are taken as those that were concocted in china, external styles are those that are not native to china. What you are thinking of is the difference between hard and soft styles which not only is more accurate but is also more descriptive. Internal and external have been transmuted from their original meaning most likely because most people identify the arts by these words, they were (mis)used so often that it just became commonplace to call the soft styles internal.

Also I'm not so polar in my opinion of hard styles, many are utterly fantastic arts. Karate for instance deals with a lot of the practices that the soft styles make use of; breath control, flow of Qi and body alignment. Remember that a good deal of the external styles are variations and adaptations of the chinese martial arts and thus contain a number of the practices of the soft styles.
It isn't simple black and white, there's a vast sea of grey between the hard and soft styles. All martial artists strive for the mastery of body in any case, some consider the mastery of mind to go hand in hand with this but all are rooted to the same principles.
[/color]

[Stealth]

I disagree Maeglamor. Through experience i can say that internal martial arts are not all about fighting. fighting is an aspect of the internal martial art. sure, they're more lethal than other martial arts, in fact, they're THE most lethal, but that's only after 5-10 years of training; as i said, they take a lot longer than externa sure, they're more lethal than other martial arts, in fact, they're THE most lethal, but that's only after 5-10 years of training; as i said, they take a lot longer than external.  i remember us discussing internal martial arts a few years ago... i also remember telling you that internal martial arts are not all about fighting and punching and sparring, etc.  there's a deep, "spiritual" side to them, one that many other martial arts just glance over, if even touch.  Sure internal martial arts are the most powerful and the most devastating, but that doesn't mean that they're based only on fighting.  There's many other aspects to them.

yes, it's true that a Hsing-I teacher once wrote that the reason martial arts are classified as "internal" and "external" is internal are the ones that originated in China, while external have roots outside of China.  But, there's a lot of other martial arts that aren't considered "internal", although they originated in China.  nowadays, an "external" martial art is one where it's focused more on muscle.  "Internal" martial arts, on the other hand, is more focused on the mind and energy.  External styles have hard and soft aspects, as do internal styles.

Xing-I, is an internal art, but is considered a "hard" art, because many of the forms ("wood" and "fire" spring to mind) are harder than karate.  Tai Chi is primarily a soft art (internal), but it too has hard aspects to it, such as the "step up parry and punch" in Yang style Tai Chi.

Karate for instance deals with a lot of the practices that the soft styles make use of; breath control, flow of Qi and body alignment.

It isn't simple black and white, there's a vast sea of grey between the hard and soft styles.

yes, as i also said in my previous post, the external arts have internal aspects to them, and vice-versa.
The three orthodox internal martial arts have all incorporated Taoist techniques of breathing, meditation and medical theory into their methods of power, development (nei kung) and fighting movements...  External arts are typically about power through strength training and internal arts art typically about power through body harmony.  it's for this reason that there ARE more than the three 'orthodox' internal martial arts.  many consider Judo to be internal, as well as Wing Chun

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Stealth
I disagree Maeglamor.  Through experience i can say that internal martial arts are not all about fighting.  fighting is an aspect of the internal martial art.  sure, they're more lethal than other martial arts, in fact, they're THE most lethal, but that's only after 5-10 years of training; as i said, they take a lot longer than external.

[color=66ff00]The problem is that you're working from only your experience, you should read more on other arts. I've only scratched the surface of the japanese arts and I can draw many parrallels in their practices to those of the soft styles. I would not claim that the soft styles are more lethal than every other style, that's presumptious and effectively closes you off to the possibility that there are more lethal arts (or that there are not, but either can only be proven by study). I'm not sure if you think that other forms have less value as they are not soft styles or that they have less value because they take much less work, Hsing-I can be learned in a matter of 9 to 12 months with dilligent practice, not long by anyone's reconing and by learned I mean can be used effectively to defend oneself. I don't think how long an art takes to learn dictates how effective it is.
[/color]

you mentioned "hard" and "soft".  External is hard, internal is soft. they're synonomous defintions.  A respected Hsing-I teacher once wrote that the reason the internal martial arts (as you said) are called "internal" is because they were originated from China, and the external arts have roots outside of China, but that's not the way to think about it.  All three internal martial arts are mind-based.  External arts are primarily muscle based...  Internal = soft = mind.  External = hard = muscle.

[color=66ff00]I think you just agreed with me there for the reasons I stated but I'm not sure if you intended to disagree or not.

Anyhow, I'm off to bed for now but I'll get back to this rather interesting topic (from my point of view anyway ) tomorrow.
[/color]

[Stealth]

The problem is that you're working from only your experience, you should read more on other arts. I've only scratched the surface of the japanese arts and I can draw many parrallels in their practices to those of the soft styles.
That's not true.  Most of what i've said this far is from research, reading, and talking to people.    I remember about two years ago (actually it's probably a little more, i can't remember too well ) we had a discussion similar to this, and i corrected you on many points.  You (if i remember correctly) study Wing Chun, or at least you were when we were talking a few years ago.  Wing Chun many consider to be an internal martial art, because many of its styles are soft, internal-like.

 I would not claim that the soft styles are more lethal than every other style, that's presumptious and effectively closes you off to the possibility that there are more lethal arts (or that there are not, but either can only be proven by study). I'm not sure if you think that other forms have less value as they are not soft styles or that they have less value because they take much less work
I would.  It's a fact.  You know that as much as I do.  Sure there's there's other "lethal" styles out there, but the most effective arts in the world are the internal styles.  it's a fact, and you know it.  the internal styles are the most powerful and effective.

Hsing-I can be learned in a matter of 9 to 12 months with dilligent practice, not long by anyone's reconing and by learned I mean can be used effectively to defend oneself.
there's a difference between "learned" and "mastered".  A 10 year old child can learn to play chess, but does that mean he's mastered it?  of course not, it takes many more years to master it.  I know many friends who've studied (and some who still are studying) Hsing-I, and not one of them has considered himself "learned" within a year.  It takes years and years to become proficient in an internal martial art, while (comparatively) it's not uncommon to see someone who's practiced a style of Karate for under a year to already have a 1st degree black belt.

I don't think how long an art takes to learn dictates how effective it is.
it doesn't, it just happens that the internal martial arts all take a long time to learn, and are extremely effective

EDIT:  Bah you're quoting what i edited 10 minutes ago

I think you just agreed with me there for the reasons I stated but I'm not sure if you intended to disagree or not.

If you're saying that internal martial arts are primarily "soft" and external martial arts are primarily "hard", then yes, i'm agreeing with you




The external martial arts, although engaging the body as a whole in generating power sequentially, do not use the body in a complete unit as do the internal martial arts. The external styles primarily use "sectional power" (ju bu li), which is a primary reason they are classified apart from the internal arts. A variation of this sectional power in the external arts is the special development of one part of the body as a weapon (iron palm, iron broom, etc.). The internal tends to forego these methods in favor of even development of the whole body, which m turn is used as a coherent unit.
 Xing Yi Quan, Tai Ji Quan and Ba Gua Zhang all have unified body motion as their root; hence, they are internal styles.

[Stealth]

Anyhow, I'm off to bed for now but I'll get back to this rather interesting topic (from my point of view anyway  ) tomorrow.

yeah, it's good to have a discussion like this again  goodnight, see you tomorrow