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Offline Rictor

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma


Rubbish. You're completely inconsistant yourself. For all your complaints about poor countries you were the one who advocated letting the starving in Africa continue to starve rather than letting them use GM food to feed them.

In the Macedonia thread dispite all your other rants about the evils commited in the War on Terror you suddenly refused to believe that one could come out of Macedonia for no good reason other than your racist belief that any pakistanis in the country must be terrorists.

You're as inconsistant as the people you're complaining about. Don't try to pretend to me that you're following any kind of logic here.  
[/B][/quote]

If you recall, I was against Terminator genes because poor nations have to pay up every season to get new seed. I never made general statements about GM foods, cause I don't know enough about them to speak intelligently on the overall pros/cons.

As for Macedonia, I'm just going to come out and say it, call me a rascist if you want. I am extremely sceptical as to the innocence of any Muslim in and around Macedonia. If it was Kosovo, it would be a  somewhat different matter, but there has not traditionally been an Albanian population in Macedonia. And certainly not a Pakistani one. As for "in transit", they've got airplanes now a days. And no, there is no destination which would require a stopover in Skoplje, and certainly not for any extended period of time. Just like I would be suspicious if someone tried to claim that the Iranian government imported 7 Americans, just to have them killed. Perhaps you're blind to it, but certain people don't get along. If indeed they were innocent, it was sheer insanity to go there in the first place, with a known conflict going on. It would be like an American civilian going to Iraq and expecting to be safe.

During the Cold War, the US parachutes a guy into Soviet territory. He's got the perfect accent, perfect clothing, he has Soviet cigarettes, his shoes are perfect fakes. His papers are immaculate. He walks into the first bar he sees and tries to blend in. Right away, the bartender walks up to him and says "You're American aren't you"? "But how could you possibly tell, my disguise is perfect". "Yeah, well, we don't get many black Russians around here".

Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
Furthermore if you think my views are inconsistent then you simply don't understand the logic behind them and all the factors i'm taking into account to reach the conclusion


ditto, which is why it would be nice to try and explain it in the future.

 

Offline ionia23

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I'd hardly say your views are racist, Rictor.  Realistic, sure, but not racist.
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Offline Gank

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
Rubbish. You're completely inconsistant yourself. For all your complaints about poor countries you were the one who advocated letting the starving in Africa continue to starve rather than letting them use GM food to feed them.  


Are you talking about the zambia thing here or actually suggesting Bio-tech corps are developing food which will eliminate world hunger? Please tell me you're not saying the later, it shows a deep ignorance about the way the world works.

Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
As for Macedonia, I'm just going to come out and say it, call me a rascist if you want. I am extremely sceptical as to the innocence of any Muslim in and around Macedonia....


:lol:  Racist and hypocrite.

Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
I'd hardly say your views are racist, Rictor.  Realistic, sure, but not racist.

His views are racist, hes saying any muslim in macedonia is guilty of something. Agreeing with him makes you racist too.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2004, 04:30:56 pm by 723 »

 

Offline Rictor

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Notice that I use a ton of qualifiers (In my opinion, to me, for my money, I reason, as far as I can see) in my posts. Check the last one and count. I thought it was quite obvious that when I say "In my opinion", whatever follows is just that - my opinion, but apparently not quite obvious enough.

I may not agree with people's opinions, and may not understand how they could possibly reach such a conclusion, but I respect their right to have it. And here's a magic phrase: as long as their opinions don't **** with someone else's life.

now, lets proceed:

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
There are an infinite number of gradations between "rape the third world!" and "do your utmost to uplift the poor benighted souls of the third world".

In not understanding (or, really, ACCEPTING)  this, you fail, Rictor.


No, there are two three options: help, nothing, hurt. There are however shades of grey for the first and last. Buying clothes at the GAP does not hurt the Third World as much as picking up a gun and killing union leaders. Similarly, what I am doing now, debating on an online forum, does not help as much as donatng a billion dollars to get revatilize Nigeria's economy.

I accept it and understand it, because it is human nature. Also, I support it, because I personally do not want to live in a world of extremes.

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
For most human beings, conclusions are based on a plurality of ideas and facts and beliefs. Ideas, facts and beliefs that apply to ONE situation are not always considered when making decisions on OTHER (possibly related) situations. All human decision making is purely, compltely, and utterly situational.


Situational to the exclusion of logic? Is it wrong to ask for some degree if rational though and consistancy? This is just to vague to respond to in general, there are two perfectly good examples (corporations and Third World) to work with, so...

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
I do call Kazan, Liberator and ionia's views extremist. However, their views are at least in touch with reality. Yours, however, are not. Consider: you espouse the idea that people should feel no loyalty to their nation because their birth as a citizen of that nation was random circumstance. While you are correct about your STATEMENT ("Birth into any given nation is a random circumstance."), your PREDICATE ("you should feel no loyalty to your nation.") does not logically follow. It is, truly, non sequitr. In the realm of logic, your implication is false. You set up false dilemmas ("Either you believe corporations are evil, or you're helping the corporations rape the world"), wherein two logically disconnected propositions are joined in an XOR relationship. This sort of logic may serve to further your arguments, since it is trivial to find a counterexample (I neither believe corporations are evil, nor am I helping them rape the world).
 

In my mind, merit has to be earned. My mom have birth to me, raised me, spent a huge amount of time and energy protecting me, feeding me and so on. She deserves greater protection by me than a stranger.

However, I do not feel that my countrymen have earned my respect or deserve my protection. Canadians or Serbs, in general, have done nothing to better my life. I would not fight for Serbia, despite it being my place of birth, if I were to disagree with what is being fought for.

Similarly, I doubt that the American people have done anything to earn your respect or support. Individuals, perhaps. And you may even like the history and the values of the people who founded the country. But why does a New Yorker who you have never met nor will ever meet deserve your protection, any more than a Turk who you have never met nor will ever meet?

I don't believe that the randomness of your birthplace and the support and protection for that place are disconnected ideas. Random people or random places do not deserve anythng from me, because they have not earned it.

Well, they deserve not to be harmed by me, but they do not deserve anything beyond that.

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Even when your logic is flawless, it, unfortunately, ignores human factors. In an idealized world, human factors would be perfectly logical. In the real world, however, they are not. People are going to feel loyalty to their country. Its a basic extension of the herd instinct.


I'll say it again, progress. Herd mentality has killed more people in history than just about anything, and yet you still cling to it. I see plently of cons, but no pros.

It serves no purpose. I could live with it if it was just useless, but its not just that. Its also, as I said, the cause of great suffering.

I don't pretend that the world is going to change overnight becuase of my whims. But I see nothing wrong in trying to share my views on  this subject, with the posibility of getting through to someone, to the people who I come into contact with.

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Rictor, you must simply accept that what you see as 'logical' is not necessarily 'logical' to anyone else. I'm sure, like you, Liberator believes he's being perfectly logical when he espouses both fundamental Christian beliefs AND a willingness to invade a sovereign nation. I see this as a logical contradiction. Your "logic" is no more logical than anyone elses. The same, of course, can be said about your notion of "ethics".


Ethics is a different matter. Would you say that the majority of the people who populate this rock share the same basic ideas of ethics? If so, I am willing to take that and call it "Human Ethics, Do Not **** With"

As for logic, its quite obvious that people logic is different than my own. For the same of discussion, I would love it if people could do a simple breakdown like I did in my previous post, cause that makes it a hell of a lot easier than trying to read their mind and try to guess at what their logic entails. I'll try to do it more from now on, perhaps it makes life a little easier. That way, you can either call into question the logic or the assumptions, instead of stabbing in the dark.

Sure, I won't be able to rant as much, but I'm getting damn tired of writing these long ass posts anyways.

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
I think I'm going to avoid any such discussions with you in the future. You'll always claim the moral, ethical and logical high ground, and then defend it with bizarre arguments that are inconsistent, or make no logical sense (I make absolutely no claim as to the consistency or logical defensibility of my own arguments). In the end, its simply not worth it.


Your choice. I find that most discussions come down to something like this if they go on long enough, which is really the meat of the matter. Everyone needs to fire off the intial volley of "you suck, asshole" before things start to settle down and something resembling debate gets underway.

 

Offline Rictor

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Quote
Originally posted by Gank


Are you talking about the zambia thing here or actually suggesting Bio-tech corps are developing food which will eliminate world hunger? Please tell me you're not saying the later, it shows a deep ignorance about the way the world works.



:lol:  Racist and hypocrite.


His views are racist, hes saying any muslim in macedonia is guilty of something. Agreeing with him makes you racist too.


Thats the legacy of the Cold War for ya, ethnic homogeny. If this happened in France, you would be right to call me a rascist. But I can not ignore the fact that there is KLA activity in Macedonia, nor can I ignore the fact that the KLA has the support of Islamic militant groups who are made up of - you guessed it, Muslims. Those two put together, in addition to the fact that Macedonia is not an ethnically diverse nation and that its not exactly a tourist hotspot, lead me to question the alleged innocence of these men.

And I don't see the hypocricy. At least when you were calling me a rascist, you had a pretty solid arguement. But hypocrite? I'm afraid I don't see how.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Even when your logic is flawless, it, unfortunately, ignores human factors. In an idealized world, human factors would be perfectly logical. In the real world, however, they are not. People are going to feel loyalty to their country. Its a basic extension of the herd instinct.


I'll say it again, progress. Herd mentality has killed more people in history than just about anything, and yet you still cling to it. I see plently of cons, but no pros.

It serves no purpose. I could live with it if it was just useless, but its not just that. Its also, as I said, the cause of great suffering.

I don't pretend that the world is going to change overnight becuase of my whims. But I see nothing wrong in trying to share my views on this subject, with the posibility of getting through to someone, to the people who I come into contact with.


He didn't say it was good nor did he say it was bad. By dismissing that you are proving his point. You can choose to ignore whatever you like, but at least don't discuss it with other people who are having an argument by simply dismissing it.


Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Are you talking about the zambia thing here or actually suggesting Bio-tech corps are developing food which will eliminate world hunger? Please tell me you're not saying the later, it shows a deep ignorance about the way the world works.



 Racist and hypocrite.


His views are racist, hes saying any muslim in macedonia is guilty of something. Agreeing with him makes you racist too.


Thats the legacy of the Cold War for ya, ethnic homogeny. If this happened in France, you would be right to call me a rascist. But I can not ignore the fact that there is KLA activity in Macedonia, nor can I ignore the fact that the KLA has the support of Islamic militant groups who are made up of - you guessed it, Muslims. Those two put together, in addition to the fact that Macedonia is not an ethnically diverse nation and that its not exactly a tourist hotspot, lead me to question the alleged innocence of these men.

And I don't see the hypocricy. At least when you were calling me a rascist, you had a pretty solid arguement. But hypocrite? I'm afraid I don't see how.


I may be wrong, but by the same logic, wouldn't christians in muslim countries be considered as "guilty" as a muslim in a christian one? :doubt:
« Last Edit: May 04, 2004, 05:32:49 pm by 1606 »
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Offline ionia23

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I don't think recognizing a particular "group" who's members are representative of a particular ethnic background, inferred or fact,  makes one racist, though some people seem to think so.  There's no hypocrisy there, just simple facts.

Pre-judging the behaviors of said group may be where the line is, but I don't think that's the case here.

This planet is a hell of a long way from being colorblind.
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Offline Gank

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Hypocricy, you jump down americans throats for the exact same thing you're doing here.

Racism, yes the KLA are active in Macedonia, so are islamic terrorists, but to say all muslims are guilty of something is racist. You claim theres no Albanian population in macedonia but a 1994 census puts the total amount of people of albanian ethnicity at one fifth of the population: http://faq.macedonia.org/information/ethnic.makeup.html
Your whole theory is based on the fact that these guys could not be innocent because they're muslim, despite the fact that Macedonia has large Turkish, Bosnian, Albanian and other muslim minoritys. Not too mention the fact that Macedonia was ruled by muslims for hundreds of years. You're also not trying to explain what actually happened, just bad mouthing dead man based on their nationality/religion. This makes you a racist.

 

Offline Grey Wolf

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Actually, racist wouldn't be quite the right word, as the affair is not of race, but instead of religion.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Gank

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Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
I don't think recognizing a particular "group" who's members are representative of a particular ethnic background, inferred or fact,  makes one racist, though some people seem to think so.  There's no hypocrisy there, just simple facts.

Pre-judging the behaviors of said group may be where the line is, but I don't think that's the case here.

This planet is a hell of a long way from being colorblind.


Wrong Ionia, theres no facts here just racism. KMacedonia has a large Muslim community, over a quarter of its population by the last census. Saying 7 pakistanis couldnt have been in the country for any other reason than terrorism is nothing short of racism. He's claiming these men are terrorists on the basis they are pakistani despite the fact that the macedonian government itself, which is currently fighting Islamic terrorists, has said they were not.

 

Offline karajorma

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It's close enough though GW. In fact when you consider that one of the 7 wasn't a muslim but was mearly the right skin colour the issue does become one of race not religion.

Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Are you talking about the zambia thing here or actually suggesting Bio-tech corps are developing food which will eliminate world hunger? Please tell me you're not saying the later, it shows a deep ignorance about the way the world works.


Personally I wouldn't trust Monsanto further than I could throw India so I'm mainly on about Zambia thing but if you've seen the Penn and Teller Bull**** episode about hunger you'll see that it's not just that I was on about.

Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Quote
As for Macedonia, I'm just going to come out and say it, call me a rascist if you want. I am extremely sceptical as to the innocence of any Muslim in and around Macedonia. If it was Kosovo, it would be a  somewhat different matter, but there has not traditionally been an Albanian population in Macedonia. And certainly not a Pakistani one. As for "in transit", they've got airplanes now a days. And no, there is no destination which would require a stopover in Skoplje, and certainly not for any extended period of time.  [/B]


And this is what makes you a racist. You know nothing about the situation yet you've decided to talk about it as if you knew everything. You even had the nerve to condesend to me that I knew nothing about the situation in Macedonia when it's abundantly clear that you know nothing about this case at all.  

Gank has done a great job of proving that your comments about Macedonia not having a muslim population were a load of crap so I'm not going to dwell on that. MY problem is not that you're wrong about this. My problem is that you accused others of being inconsistant while you are always logical. That's a load of crap Rictor and I'm hoping that this proves it to you. Lets take this whole Macedonia thing as an example.

1. The Macedonian government has said that these guys were not terrorists.

2. Amnesty International has said that these guys were not terrorists.

3. The US government has said that these guys were not terrorists.

4. The guys families have said that these guys were not terrorists.

That should be enough to convince anyone that this was not a case of the shooting of terrorists. When Amnesty agrees with governments it makes me sit up and take notice.

So what chain of logic are you using to claim that they are? You have no proof. You have no data. You only have a chain of factual errors and outright racism.  

1. The KLA are terrorists
2. The KLA are muslims
3. All muslims in Macedonia must be KLA
4. Therefore the 7 must have been terrorists.

There's no logic there. There are huge gaps in the logic there. Your entire chain is based on the fallacy that there are no muslims in Macedonia.

Worse had you bothered to check the link I gave you you'd have noticed that most of your complaints were answered.

1. The 7 had travelled through turkey and Bulgeria and were on their way to Greece where they had family.

2. One of the supposed Muslim terrorists was infact a Sikh.

3. Allthough it was claimed by the police that the 7 had opened fire on them with automatic weapons not one policeman had recieved any injuries whatsoever.

4. KLA insignia were found on clothes supposedly worn by the men when they were shot. Despite the fact that 7 bodies are described as being riddled with bullets not a single bullet hole was present in any of the bags or clothes that the men supposedly had on them.

I even reminded you of that link on this thread. You didn't bother to go back and read it to check if it said anything contrary to what you believed. You simply carried on expressing your racist views about muslims (and considering one of the facts I've mentioned twice now presumably sikhs too)

Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Notice that I use a ton of qualifiers (In my opinion, to me, for my money, I reason, as far as I can see) in my posts. Check the last one and count. I thought it was quite obvious that when I say "In my opinion", whatever follows is just that - my opinion, but apparently not quite obvious enough.


Just because it's your opinion doesn't make it any less wrong. Nor do it stop it from being a racist opinion.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2004, 06:21:58 pm by 340 »
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Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Actually, racist wouldn't be quite the right word, as the affair is not of race, but instead of religion.


This is fact. There is nothing racist about calling Muslims terrorists or whatever. Bigotry, but not racism. So stop misusing this ****ing word, which seems 99% misapplied these days.

 

Offline Grey Wolf

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On a side note, should this not be in the thread on the entire Macedonian incident, not the thread on Shrub's approval rating?
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Offline karajorma

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Nah. This thread has been off-topic for several pages now and besides I asked Rictor to reply on the correct topic and he just wandered off to spout crap elsewhere and ignored me.

Quote
Originally posted by SadisticSid
This is fact. There is nothing racist about calling Muslims terrorists or whatever. Bigotry, but not racism. So stop misusing this ****ing word, which seems 99% misapplied these days.


As I said above considering that one of the 7 killed wasn't even a muslim an element of racism comes into it.  Rictor is saying that one of them is a terrorist based not on his religion (since he isn't a muslim) but because of the country he was born in/colour of his skin and that is racism.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2004, 06:42:21 pm by 340 »
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Offline Gank

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Quote
Originally posted by SadisticSid


This is fact. There is nothing racist about calling Muslims terrorists or whatever. Bigotry, but not racism. So stop misusing this ****ing word, which seems 99% misapplied these days.

It would be bigotry excepts hes arguing that pakistanis have no reason to be in Macedonia except terrorism, thats racist.

 

Offline Gank

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
Personally I wouldn't trust Monsanto further than I could throw India so I'm mainly on about Zambia thing but if you've seen the Penn and Teller Bull**** episode about hunger you'll see that it's not just that I was on about.


Dont watch Penn and Teller, didnt know they were experts on the subject. Just read up on what you were saying in that thread and I think you misunderstand the main reason people oppose GM foods, its not because its unsafe or unnatural, but because its being done by companys like Monsanto purely for profit, patented foods are not going to help eliminate world hunger.

 

Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Gank
Dont watch Penn and Teller, didnt know they were experts on the subject.


Not experts, just a smug bastards that like to be right, so they do a lot of research examining the ideas (crazy or otherwise) that people have. Then they produce a nifty little cable show containing what they learn.
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Offline Kazan

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Rictor: i cannot elaborate and full you gap in understanding if i do not know what you do not understand
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Offline vyper

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Quote
Originally posted by Gank

It would be bigotry excepts hes arguing that pakistanis have no reason to be in Macedonia except terrorism, thats racist.


No that's stupidity.:ha:
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