[ionia23]

Originally posted by Liberator
This sickens me.  And it shows how barbaric the Militants are.  

Break out the B-52s and lets get to bombin'.  Two or Three more and I be ready to pull out the Finger of God class nukes.  

Let them see that we are not going to be trifled with and that we can't be defeated and they'll fight all the harder and we'll kill them off faster.

Just for humor's sake, let me ask you something, since I've been suggesting nerve-gassing Fallujah to get the 'message' out for some time.

Let's say the coalition forces DID decide to do a disproportionate response, such as carpetbombing one of the insurgent towns.  What do you think world reaction would be, honestly?

[Bobboau]

unpleasent

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Flipside
Meh, to be honest, all this fanatic has done is, in some small part, justify the American torture fiasco. The fact that he was sick enough to not only behead someone but to do it on video has done nothing to improve Iraqs situation in the worlds eyes, if anything, it will diminish sympathy for them. Apparently the medical report said that the American girl who was captured near the start of the war was drugged and sodomised, though I'm not sure how accurate that report is. So all this 'you started it' crap is getting on my nerves.

Besides, according to Bin Laden, Americans think that Muslim lives are worth less than Christian ones? According to this wanker, showing pictures of a muslim on a lead (not that I agree in any way with this behaviour) is worth beheading a American for? Remember, very little details are out regarding the deaths in the jails, and this was purely about the 'pride of muslim people', not their lives, so it seems Bin Laden's own Leiutenant has proven his leader a liar. If America had thought like this can you imagine how many dead there would be in Korea or Vietnam?

You really, really shouldn't have picked Korea and Vietnam as examples.

I mean, there are reports of rape at Abu Ghraib, a woman being impregnated twice, several deaths during interogation etc, in addition to the bombing and occupation deaths. So, if you want to compare on a statistical scale (crimes of A vs crimes of B), well one side is still far ahead of the other.

But as I said, one crime doesn't justify another. This guy was an innocent.

[Bobboau]

and on the subject of Rictors hatred of America, I'll just leave it at this.

US soldgers make some Iraqi's stand naked, Rictors inital responce
"Bastards ought to be lynched."
matter of public record, look in the 'sad day to be a vet' thread,
his first responce to an American being beheaded
" 'Tis a shame."

you can make your own conclusions from this

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Liberator
This sickens me.  And it shows how barbaric the Militants are.  

Break out the B-52s and lets get to bombin'.  Two or Three more and I be ready to pull out the Finger of God class nukes.  

Let them see that we are not going to be trifled with and that we can't be defeated and they'll fight all the harder and we'll kill them off faster.

If breaking out the bombers is what you would consider an appropriate response to the killing of a single America, I wonder what would be appropriate for 10,000 dead Iraqis. How does taking out the solar system sound?

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by sevral people
lets send a mesage!
NUKE Fallujah!!!11!!!1!

Fallujah is a city of nearly 500,000 people, there is maybe 2,000 people in there shooting at us, that means you'd be killing 498,000 people who have done nothing, what sort of measge are you trying to send again?
killing one or two inocent people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time to get someone important is one thing, but killing about a quarter million people isn't something that I think is going to get us what we want. wich is a peaceful democratic Iraq run by it's people, posably an ally, that is what we want right, right?

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Bobboau
and on the subject of Rictors hatred of America, I'll just leave it at this.

US soldgers make some Iraqi's stand naked, Rictors inital responce
"Bastards ought to be lynched."
matter of public record, look in the 'sad day to be a vet' thread,
his first responce to an American being beheaded
" 'Tis a shame."

you can make your own conclusions from this

Oh please. I'm taking two things into account here. The number of victims, and the severity of the crime.

One person was beheaded. Hundreds if not thousands were tortured and some died. Until such a time as the insurgents manage to get their paws on 10,000 American civies and execute 'em, they are statistically speaking, less evil. I value all life the same, no one more than other.

[Bobboau]

so there better people simply due to the fact that they are weaker?

[Flipside]

Yes, I did want to pick those as examples, because they are both places where American 'Pride' was damaged. They both went in for the wrong reasons, did the wrong things, and were sent packing in front of the international community with their tails between their legs. If this guy had been President at the time, I don't doubt they would have both ended up nuked to attone for 'damaged pride'

Yes, there are reports of terrible things at Abu Ghraib, some of them may be true, some of them may be scaremongering. Some of them will be lies made up by bitter prisoners and those who sympathise with the Iraqi resistance. But some of them WILL be true, and it is terrible, and justice must be done.

I don't actually want to do 'Does crime A > crime B' simply because Crime A = Crime B. I don't care who started it, we could chase the trail of lies and misdirection all the way back to the first gulf war and beyond most likely, and I'm not keeping score of the 'crimes', one death is too many, on either side.


What I care about, quite frankly, is the blatant, undeniable stupidity of two cultures racing headlong towards eventual collision in stupid, vicious, petty tit for tat actions such as the torture at Abu Ghraib, and this beheading.

Does being put in a position of power make peoples IQ's plummet exponentially or something? It seems the more responsibility you give a person, the more selfish they become? Sometimes it makes me want to get a big hammer.......

Not you Rictor, long day, letting off steam

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Bobboau
so there better people simply due to the fact that they are weaker?

No no no! you took the wrong meaning from what Rictor said. What he meant is that he values all lives equally, unless they're American lives. If they're american, well, you know, they had it coming.

[Genryu]

Well, IMO, both side are a bunch of morons. Both have stupidly exagerated pride, and are willing to humiliate, torture and kill to get their point across.
But then, it's not my country, and even less my war, so I'm not the one to make much comment...

[Flipside]

The problem is Genryu is that it will involve everyone soon if something isn't done about it. I'm from one of the involved countries, I'm not happy about it, and if the British troops have been acting in a similar manner, I will be far more digusted in them than I am even of the American soliders who tortured prisoners, since ours are supposed to be trained for these situations.

And yes, I agree, the actions of both sides leadership displays only moronity and a complete disregard for life on either side.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Flipside
... I will be far more digusted in them than I am even of the American soliders who tortured prisoners, since ours are supposed to be trained for these situations...

So are ours. I mean come on. I was in the Navy. A SAILOR. Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum, and all that. I got training that said "this is the Geneva Convention. This is how prisoners of war are to be treated. These are the rights of the prisoners. These are the responisbilities of the jailers."

Now, if I got that training, as a sailor, and not even a master-at-arms, but a COMMUNICATIONS TECHNICIAN, explain to me how a bunch of MILITARY POLICE (this was a military police batallion after all) didn't get this critical bit of training? Especially when this sort of training is done in BOOT CAMP. BASIC TRAINING.

Bull**** they weren't trained. Bull**** they didn't know. They knew, and they did it anyway.

[Rictor]

Wow, thats quite a time saver, mik. From now one, why waste tedious time actually posting. I'll just throw up the Bat signal, and you'll read my mind and post in my stead. I was under the impression that I didn't need a mouthpiece, but since when do I know anything?

When I say all life, I mean that in the very literal sense. I don't mean "all life provided they are exactly 5' 12" tall, and wearing a blue shirt." Oh, I should probably mention, excluding anyone who picks up and gun and goes off looking for a fight. But all civilians, yes.  No one is better, either becuase they are weak or strong. I believe that no one "has it coming" simply becuase they are unable to protect themselves from harm at the hands of someone stronger, like the guy who was beheaded or the detainees at Abu Ghraib.

If I value all life equally, it follows that I will view harm done to many as a greater crime than harm done to one. So, as I said, until the Iraqis round up and murder as many civilians as the bombing+occupation has killed, "their side" has the moral "high ground".

If you think one death on your side is a tragedy, think of how the Iraqis feel.


__________

Flipside: right on.

[Flipside]

Yes Mik, I'm not saying the soldiers did this in ignorance, they knew and they did it, and it's disgusting, but simply that the British army has always prided itself on it's diplomacy. It's the 'selling point' of our army these days, they don't 'defend the country', they help two tribes who are arguing about a well, if you believe the adverts. I was actually quite proud of our army the night of the riots after that Hamas leader was assasinated, they just stood there and took it and didn't respond. The next night, everyone realised it was pointless and didn't bother rioting.

That is why I would be far more disgusted in my own army. Not because I expect it of the American army, but because The Institution that is the British Army would be utterly humiliated in Britain by the actions of those people.

Britains pride in our army comes more from the belief that our men are some of the best trained general soldiers both physically and mentally to deal with situations like Iraq. If they are not, it will damage the Army phenominally, much as it probably will in the US.

Edit : Besides, they are my countrymen! I hate borders, but if someone is going to represent me, they damn well better not be doing it like that!

[Nico]

Originally posted by Liberator
This sickens me.  And it shows how barbaric the Militants are.  

Break out the B-52s and lets get to bombin'.  Two or Three more and I be ready to pull out the Finger of God class nukes.  

Let them see that we are not going to be trifled with and that we can't be defeated and they'll fight all the harder and we'll kill them off faster.

Yeah! Behave you moronic irakis, what do you think you're doing rebelling in Irak? Forgotten that's a US property now, you lowlife bums?
Really, they should all die, women, children, along with the extremists.

Really, I think some good kicks in the ass might be good for your sake, Lib

[Genryu]

Originally posted by Flipside
The problem is Genryu is that it will involve everyone soon if something isn't done about it.

Never said the contrary. I just pointed that I don't have the same POV of this war than people whose country is involved have.

, btw, Nico.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Liberator
This sickens me.  And it shows how barbaric the Militants are.  

Break out the B-52s and lets get to bombin'.  Two or Three more and I be ready to pull out the Finger of God class nukes.  

Let them see that we are not going to be trifled with and that we can't be defeated and they'll fight all the harder and we'll kill them off faster.

And the christian militant advocates the murder of millions of innocents to avenge the death of one person and then complains that THEY are barbaric.

Can't you even live by the commandments you claim everyone else should?

[ionia23]

Originally posted by karajorma


And the christian militant advocates the murder of millions of innocents to avenge the death of one person and then complains that THEY are barbaric.

Can't you even live by the commandments you claim everyone else should?

Obviously we don't do a good enough job of that, seeing as we're expected to be perfect, omnipotent, infallible gods, so why not simply exceed everyone else's expectations and "do as they do", but on a signifigantly larger scale?

[Fineus]

You should practice what you preach - or not preach at all. Even school children pick up on the fact that if an adult does something (despite them telling the child not to do it) then the child might gingerly try it as well.

Govern the world when you can govern yourselves. A moment before and you go from knowing adult to playground bully. If the human race is to survive the next ten years they'll have to realise a few hard to deal with truths.