[Tiara]

Originally posted by J3Vr6

Hey, remember when Murdock from the A-Team was a crew member of Next Generation and he was possessed by some other being on the other side of the universe and had him build a super warp drive that made them bend space and travel really really far?

Whatever happened with that?

Warp 10 is infinite.

Lt. Barclay (his name in TNG) probably modified the Enterprise to something with a variation of slipstream and not breaching the Warp 10 barrier.. We saw that the space around the ship went all funky so it could probably be some sort of slipstream vortex.

Warp 9.9999 < Transwarp < Slipstream < Warp 10

It's somewhere in between, but the differences are HUGE. Hence the exponential growth in acceleration (speed) on the warp chart.

[Liberator]

For the lower class Trekkies in the Audience:

Warp 1 = C^1(lightspeed to the first power of ten)
Warp 2 = C^2(lightspeed squared)
Warp 3 = C^3(lightspeed cubed, you get the idea)
W4 = C^4
ECT
ECT

till you get to warp 9 where the increase becomes geometric.  That's the only way IS distances become manageable in Trek.

Now you know, and Knowing is half the battle!  GI JOOOOOOOOOOOOE!

[Knight Templar]

Tiara:



Alright, wierd angle, but I figured it out.

The bottom bridge is the Golden Gate, the one in the top right with the question mark is the Bay Bridge. Ignore the red line. Apparently that's supposed to be Angel Island and Tiburon, but they're missing a whole island....

[Tiara]

As seen here;



It's pretty accurate IMO...

[ChronoReverse]

The entire Warp speed factor thing got foobar'd ever since TNG when they made 10 the limit (with the explanation that they wanted to leave room for stuff like Q to be able to go at >10 warp factors.).

Then they tried explaining the warp 10 business and instead of saying that it took infinite energy to reach warp 10 under conventional warp (like the way it takes infinite energy to reach lightspeed with conventional drives), they said that Warp 10 is infinite speed so it took infinite energy to reach Warp 10.  Which is so stupid since you might as well then flatten the scale so that it scales to infinity instead (like we do ALL the time in science whenever a scale isn't linear... like pH for instance).

Then Voyager came along and it became even more fuxor'd.  Now they go about approaching the "threshold of infinity" (pure garbage) and they miraculously mutated into some weird thing that doesn't even make any sense at all.  Moreover, if they really were occupying every point n the universe at the same time, what are the chances of ending up back in the same area?



Not only that, this "Warp 10" business also completely messes up TOS since the Excelsior was capable of >Warp 10 speeds even without the transwarp drive (later on the relabeled it to a speed lower than 10).

To make it even worse, Transwarp, instead of being a new drive technology that allows for >Warp 10 speeds without the running into infinite energy requirement, has become this network of "conduits".



I so hate Voyager.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by ChronoReverse
To make it even worse, Transwarp, instead of being a new drive technology that allows for >Warp 10 speeds without the running into infinite energy requirement, has become this network of "conduits".

Wrong; Transwarp < Warp 10.

Transwarp would be along the lines of Warp 9.99999 (which would be 204850c). Such speeds can't be sustained by conventional warp drives in real space so transwarp conduits are formed to stabalize the whole thing.

Slipstream works in a similar fashion but still isn't warp 10. It would be a factor higher then transwarp (like 9.999999 or something) and can only be safely used in a slipstream vortex without tearing apart the ship itself.

The conduit acts as a second warp field. While normal warp fields would collapse under such speeds, the conduits let's the ship travel at these speeds nonetheless. Again, this is much the same in slipstream speeds.

Warp 10 is in realspace without conduits or a vortex however because the speed is infinite. And with infinite speeds you stand virtually still at every point in the universe at the same time.

[Knight Templar]

Originally posted by Tiara

It's pretty accurate IMO...

As I said....

It didn't seem right at first though, because Belevedere isn't there.

[ChronoReverse]

@Tiara

Eh?  I thought I addressed the problem in my post already.

Warp >10 didn't used to be nonsense.  It became nonsense when they screwed everything up in TNG (and then even worse in Voyager).


Back in the days of TOS Warp 10 isn't infinite speed.  But conventional warp engines weren't too powerful.  Transwarp on the Excelsior was supposed to be the next generation warp technology to allow for >Warp 10.


In TNG they made Warp 10 the limit so that beings like Q can have their little niche (this is what the producers claimed).  But they screwed up when they decided to say that Warp 10 was infinite speed requiring infinite energy  rather than an arbitrary speed requiring infinite energy .



In any case, it doesn't really matter, because they're simply moving faster as you approach Warp 10.  Too bad it's really ridiculous at the point it's reach now.

"Captain!  We're going at Warp 9.999995, I can't hold her any longer!"
"Damnit!  But they're going at Waarp 9.9999951.  We're losing them fast!"

Instead, they're throwing around, Transwarp conduits and Slipstream drives to get around sounding too ridiculous.


They should've just kept a more linear scale instead.  Infinite speeds isn't even a misnomer, it's a misconcept.






To summarize.

(1) Warp 10 should've been an arbitrarily fast speed (not INFINITE) that requires infinite energy to achieve using convential warp engines.

This is like conventional drives and the speed of light.


(2) Transwarp should've been the new breakthrough technology (like warp drive to normal drive) that allows for speeds greater than Warp 10.

There should be another speed limit placed again (for the same reason Warp 10 was invented for TNG).


(3) Slipstream drive should be an alternate way of travel that, rather than using subspace to alter the physics so that greater-than-light-speeds don't require infinite energy, works like a shortcut instead.

This is similar to a wormhole.



Of course this is all impossible now that Voyager has been aired.

[Ulala]

*points to head* this thing hurts...

[Tiara]

Originally posted by ChronoReverse

To summarize.

(1) Warp 10 should've been an arbitrarily fast speed (not INFINITE) that requires infinite energy to achieve using convential warp engines.

This is like conventional drives and the speed of light.


(2) Transwarp should've been the new breakthrough technology (like warp drive to normal drive) that allows for speeds greater than Warp 10.

There should be another speed limit placed again (for the same reason Warp 10 was invented for TNG).


(3) Slipstream drive should be an alternate way of travel that, rather than using subspace to alter the physics so that greater-than-light-speeds don't require infinite energy, works like a shortcut instead.

This is similar to a wormhole.

Of course this is all impossible now that Voyager has been aired.

Warp isn't as much as a reference to absolute speeds as it is to the energy requirment to sustain a warp field around a vessel. In TOS they might've used a different scale on different engines. As the Engines got better, the scale got changed up to Warp 10.

Also, TOS is a VERY BAD place to compare stuff with. They had engines that could carry a ship across the universe in a day or two if it suited the plot. In TOS almost everything is based on plot devices and action instead of technological consistency. Voyager is more consistent with DS9, TNG and Enterprise then TOS ever was.

As for Transwarp and slipstream, I really don't agree with you there. They are fine the way they are. Really fast. But instead of saying "go to warp 9.999999" They just say "Go to transwarp/slipstream".

So, frankly, your ideas would screw up ST more then would be necessary. Way more. Consistency in ST tends to be built on TNG and up. Not TOS like you're reffering to.

[an0n]

Oh and Warp10 isn't infinite speed.

The entire principle of Warp technology in the Trek universe is that the drive coils form a subspace bubble around the ship and shift it slightly into subspace. The higher the warp factor, the deeper into subspace you go.

Warp10 is basically skimming along the boundaries between being almost fully in subspace and being fully in subspace. So the slightest particle vibration can shift your atoms millions of lightyears in any given direction as they shift into subspace where distance is irrelevant, their tiny amount of inertia moves them to some random point in subspace, then they shift back into the semi-realspace lightyear away. The only thing stopping the craft and crew from exploding is that the fraction of the ship that remains outside subspace is still generating a subspace field that is holding it all together and brings it back into realspace intact when the engines are powered down and the bubble collapses.

And when the bubble does collapse, it drops the craft wherever it was when it entered subspace. That's why the Warp10 shuttle didn't end up billions of lightyears away; It was only any distance away because of the Warp9.X speeds it was travelling at before it hit Warp10.

Also, it required some new form of dilithium that was more stable at higher energy bands and could only be found in the Delta Quadrant. So Starfleet could never hope to put it into use for Warp9.999X speeds.

And where Warp uses a bubble, Slipstream uses a tunnel through subspace to eliminate the 'friction' around the ship so it goes faster.

Transwarp drives are a cross between the two, creating a spindle-shaped field to reduce friction, but not eliminate it.

Borg Transwarp drives are faster than Slipstream but work on the same principles, only with much more power.

Borg Transwarp Conduits are similar to Slipstream, but use collosal structures and massive amounts of energy to not only bend and warp subspace, but to tear the **** out of it. They're less a case of pushing an object through subspace and more a case of forcing space to manifest inside subspace and letting a ship move through that space normally. It's kinda like space-folding.

[ChronoReverse]

Almost.  The role of dilithium crystals has changed somewhat.  As of TNG their purpose is "merely" to be a conduit for antimatter and matter streams to merge and form they patented "trek plasma" which powers their warp coils (and also flows all over the ship so that the panels can explode dramatically during fights).

I won't disagree too much about the subspace field part, although I must point out that the shaping of the field does matter to warp efficiency.

Moreover, are you familiar with the reason for the Trek logo?  If you are then you should realize a minor flaw in your explanation of warp.

And when the bubble does collapse, it drops the craft wherever it was when it entered subspace. That's why the Warp10 shuttle didn't end up billions of lightyears away; It was only any distance away because of the Warp9.X speeds it was travelling at before it hit Warp 10.

Now if that were true, wouldn't it be completely useless to even think about achieving Warp 10?

Additionally, if Warp 10 is the theoretical "infinite speed" and they have to "accelerate" to Warp 10, then it's a complete fallacy.


Voyager should have said it was a way to boost Warp efficieny ten-fold or a hundred-fold.  But to claim the Warp 10 business is again ridiculous ><



Can't say much about transwarp.  After all, it originally was conceived to be a next generation warp drive and is now something different.


[edit]  I realize the problem now.  I'm not being too clear on my position.

All I'm really trying to say is that the Trek producers have a habit of messing things up to the point where it can't make sense.

That doesn't really stop me from watching Trek anyways.
[/edit]

[StratComm]

Trek warp scales have always been screwy.  There are three distinct things that canonically happen at warp 10: the "everywhere at once" BS of Voyager, the time warp bit from Star Trek 4, and absolutely nothing from TNG (all good things, part 2 I believe, with warp 13).  So there is no canon answer.  Voyager and now Enterprise have gone way beyond that issue in how they've screwed things up though, so modern Trek doesn't interest me.  The last good show was DS9.

[J3Vr6]

do u guys realize how many pages u guys spent talking about how a tv show interprets warp?

[Tiara]

Yeah, we're geeks. We know.

[Kazan]

StratComm: i'm betting Warp 13 is actually a stage of transwarp

[ChronoReverse]

Remember, this is AGT which was TNG.  The TNG producers made Warp 10 the limit for Federation standard warp drives.  This is to leave >10 warp factors for beings like Q and the Traveller.

Unfortunately, the TNG technical manual (btw, I hate most of the technical manuals since they're often wrong or introduce ideas that are stupid and yet are adopted by future series; case in point, the TNG technical manual and Voyager) decided to make Warp 10 infinite speed.

[J3Vr6]

How can a technical manual for a science fiction tv show based on things that haven't even been invented be wrong?

[ChronoReverse]

Internal Inconsistency.  The bane of story writers.

The other problem is when something is said that results in "workarounds" to avoid sounding ridiculous.

[Star Dragon]

This is one of my FAVORITE QOUTES ever!

  "Cannon is something argued about by people, describing that which exists, on things that do not exist."

   I changed the wording it said SHIPS but since this works for all sci-fi I changed it to things...

  Whenever someone starts getting bent out of shape and screams CANNON! I shake my head and laugh at them.

  I rememebr reading an old TOS novel that takes place with captain scott and some crystaline spider engineers. High warp speeds were tearing the space time continuim apart and allowing other dimensions to seep in. Starfleet put a moritorium on HIGH warp travel (I think it was over warp 7) but they came up with a way to reconfigure the warp engines on all starships to reduce this strain on the universe... has anyone else read this book? IT also describes WHY warp 10 is unfeasible... I think Scotty says something like once you achieve warp 10 (even IF they had the power to break that barrier) you're screwed cause you can never slow down, you continue on for infinity.. (if I got this wrong I read this book only 1 time in 1986 so sue me).

I won't say cannon, but this was written by one of the authors that wrote TONS of ST books so a little creativity on thier part, but still a very enjoyable story none the less.