[diamondgeezer]

I think rule #1 is perfectly adequate

The thing about bugs is they aren't ruled purely by instinct and brute force tactics. It all depends on what kind of set-up they've got going on. You need to remember that the hive always operates intelligently. The hive can consist of a queen and a hundred drones, or a single isolated runner, but overall the hive operates with pretty sophisticated intelligence.

You recall in Alien and Alien3 how one bug wiped out hordes of people in no time at all? And in Aliens how they died en masse even thought they outwitted the marines on several occasions? Well, apart from the armamanet of the humies involved in those films, the crucial factor is the hive intellignce.

A hive like the one encounterd on LV426 operates intelligently overall to protect the queen and further the alien population. Now, the individual drones and runners will throw themselves in to a fight with no hesitation, happilly sacrificing themselves for the collective good of the hive. But when you've got an isolated specimen things are different. An isolated drone is far more dangerous than the same drone in a pack because it's more intelligent.

An isolated drone is the hive. And as such it is capable of operating intelligently to protect the hive, and thus itself. It will attack with the ferocity of the collective but it will also plan ahead to limit the danger to itself. The drones which cut the power to the POC in Aliens were working under the guidance of the hive mind - in an attack they just hurled themselves against the marines' guns without a thought for their own safety. An isolated drone wouldn't make such suicidal attacks.

Thus, when considering the question of whether a Shivan or a Xenomorph would win in a fight, we must determine whether or not the bug is part of a bigger hive or isolated.

[Jetmech Jr.]

DG: Just remembered something. Did you take into account the different types of Xenomorphs in the movies?

Runner (Alien3: Faster than others but less armor)
Drone (Alien: Average all-around fighter)
Warrior (Aliens: Bred specifically to protect the hive)
Praetorian (Only in the Games: Like a small queen, but far, far better armored. Bulletproof)
Queen (Aliens and Alien Ressurection: something like 4-5 meters tall, stronger than all other Xenomorphs)

[karajorma]

Who says the camo would have any effect on a shivan?

 Once you get rid of that it's just plasmacaster vs beam cannon. I know what I'm betting is on there

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Thus, when considering the question of whether a Shivan or a Xenomorph would win in a fight, we must determine whether or not the bug is part of a bigger hive or isolated.

True DG but this is basically a 1 on 1 pit fight senario. If you're introducing the possibility of tactics and strategy being involved then you're got to remember than shivans can be sneaky SOBs too. We just didn't see it much in FS2 cause their master plan revolved around Capella.

[Star Dragon]

I'm not saying a single Xeno is programmed to be stupid. Notice it is NOT a tactical Genuis but is a simple predatory creature stalkin it's prey and then hiding while it digests them or needs to rest. (talking about Alien 1 and 3) the number of prey eventually stalked and kill means nothing except that it does it fulfills it's purpose very well. Busting down a door or any otehr brute force tactic to get at you prey is only a matter of time not intelligence. Not if teh drones were EVER to be seen using a toll or a comp THEN I would be impressed. I can respect their natural comabt capabilities, but I would never count on then to win a fight 1 on one as a properly equipted (and trained) Human soldier is much more dealy and imaginative then most other life forms (that's why we win most of the time, IE Aliens, predator,others...ect..) Plus the script says so dammit!

  As for Aliens 2 and 4 of course the queen overides the basic programming with HER own strategy and tactics. If she decides to force the drones to attack in mass she has decided that overwhelming the defenders is the tactic to use at that time. If they do NOT destroy routes leading right to their prey then again it was HER will that stayed their hand. I think of the Xenos as really dangerous BEES... I don;t know about the comics, but I definately think someone engineered them for a purpose (maybe the predators? they hint at in in different sources for their ultimate thrill hunts.)

EDIT  oh and the frozen Nitrogen button the alien hits on the guards (I think) is not super intelligence, it is a LEANED behavior (ie pavlov's dogs) if someone shocks me enough with a stun gun SOMEDAY I will find a way to get it and stun him back, especailly if the equasion is [touch this[ = [cause pain in the room]!.

[Jetmech Jr.]

kara: How do you know it doesnt

PC has a good deal more mobility than the Beam. Pred can keep movin to dodge the beam and have the PC keep locked and firing just by looking at the shivan.

Star dragon:

Preds actually just harvest the alien eggs to train warriors. They invade a hive (usually with about 10 or more members) and attempt to capture the queen, which they then use as a source of eggs.

And Learned behaviour IS a sign of High (In a sense) intelligence.
Truthfully, though, you're right about the Alien not being super intelligent. That honor goes to the queen. the drones and such just seem to have really good instincts when it comes to stuff like guerrilla tactics (i.e picking off one enemy at a time and sneaking around).

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
kara: How do you know it doesnt

We don't know. That's my point. Without it the Pred would lose. With it it may stand more of a chance.

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
PC has a good deal more mobility than the Beam. Pred can keep movin to dodge the beam and have the PC keep locked and firing just by looking at the shivan.

Again, we don't know that. We only ever see the beam used once. Against an imoblile target. If the beam is a slasher I'm predicting that the pred would be on the floor in two seperate pieces the second it tried that dodging around ****.

[Bobboau]

preditors have a lot of technology on there side, and assumeing it had some idea what it was up against I'm sure it would be packing an apropriate cloak, high powered weapons, sensors to trak the shivan around corners ect
we do know that the Shivan beam cannon takes a second or two to warm up, this should be enough time for the preditor to get around a corner or something. I think the shivans best bet would be to try to get in close as the preditor is physicly much weaker, and the little glowy knife thing I think would be extreemly effective.

[Ghostavo]

Why bother? Why not just nuke the planet from orbit? Or supernovae the place up?

[Knight Templar]

Carl would win.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
Why bother? Why not just nuke the planet from orbit? Or supernovae the place up?

Read the entire thread. 1v1 grudge match.

[Ghostavo]

Why b-o-t-h-e-r to f-i-g-h-t when:

- They cannot make any kind of encounter due to the nature of both beings (0 Grav and planet).

- The shivans never board, invade, or capture any kind of ships/planets/instalations (with the exception of the Iceni).

- The shivans have much more effective ways of making a species extinct than go through that sort of crude combat.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Allright, this whole thread is based on an assumption  like this: A xenomorph and a shivan are thrown together in a little arena to fight to the death. Who would win?

[Ghostavo]

Then the assumption is incorrect and both would comite suicide m'okay?

(ok, the shivan would win )

[Jetmech Jr.]

[an0n]

Originally posted by Jetmech Jr.
We're not talking about there ships, we're talking about the Shivan THEMSELVES, so this point is moot

The battleground is important.

taking all into consideration, I think I'll change my opinion to hesitant shivan win. More than one xeno, though, or if its the queen...

So you declared most of my points moot on the basis that they considered multiple combatants, then added a proviso to your own analysis based on....oh, look: Multiple combatants.


Against a Xeno, Warrior Bug or Predator, a Shivan would kick the living **** out of its opponent and rape their crushed remains.

The Xeno would be torn to pieces without a second thought. It wouldn't even be worth warming up the bio-cannon to vapourise.

The Warrior bug MIGHT tear the Shivan up some with its mini-spikes above its eyes, but the Shivan could just leap over its head and tear out its nerve stem from behind, or plasma it from afar.

A Predator might have a chance inside a complicated, factory-like environment where it could set traps and make hit-n-run attacks, but in a simple battle arena the Predator would be backed into a corner and torn to pieces before it could even think about attacking.

The Shivans as fast as and stronger than most non-humanoids (Bugs); and they're tough and strong enough to stay standing till they get a chance to make a single-hit kill on faster, humanoid targets.

The only thing that could threaten a Shivan is an Alien Queen, which could possibly spear the Shivan in the head before it had a chance to plasma the *****.

[Liberator]

I only have one problem with the previous post:

Originally posted by an0n
Against a Xeno, Warrior Bug or Predator, a Shivan would kick the living **** out of its opponent and rape their crushed remains.

We don't know that the Shivans use any sort of sexual processes for procreation.

[diamondgeezer]

You've got serious problems that need sorting, you have

[Jetmech Jr.]

Originally posted by an0n
The battleground is important.

No doubt, but who said that a shivan ship was the battleground?
In addition, you were stating that shivan ships were immune to the acid, whereas I was saying shivans were not. Thats why I considered that a moot point

Originally posted by an0n
So you declared most of my points moot on the basis that they considered multiple combatants, then added a proviso to your own analysis based on....oh, look: Multiple combatants.

I changed my own opinion on who would win based on facts presented in the previous posts about the shivans that were unknown to me. Nothing to do with the multiple combatants.

Most of your argument ignores almost every single defensive and offensive ability of any non-shivan race. Beam cannons? Deadly for sure, but capable of being evaded. Backing the predator into a corner? Thats assuming the shivan can even see the pred, and that the pred doesn't stick a combistick right in its face. As for size and strength and speed, well I still see the xenos as being faster, and quite strong, but the shivan probably has the upper hand in terms of size and strength, but not speed.

EDIT: anon, regarding the warrior bug, what eyes are you talking about?

EDIT2:what would happen between a Facehugger and a shivan?

[Liberator]

Do Shivans even have mouths?

[Jetmech Jr.]

dont matter. Facehuggers can secrete some of their acid blood to burn a viable orifice.