[ionia23]

Originally posted by vyper
[q]I would expect to hear that around here, but one has a right to be a total bigot if they want to, I suppose.[/q]
What, that people would get pissed off if someone started shooting up their home, neighbours and kids?

You come from a country obsessed with home defence, I'd expect you to be a bit more understanding of the Palestinians situation.

I have a government obsessed with home defense.  I leave my doors unlocked.

Of course I do.  They're caught between a rock and a hard place because of a few extremists on BOTH sides.  Is Israel the sole exclusive blame for that?  No.  

What sets me off is people around here have absolutely no issue with ripping the Israelis up because a stray bullet kills some innocent civilian on accident, but not a single one of you give a flying crap when a suicide bomber levels a nightclub in Tel Aviv in the name of Allah beyond saying "well, the Israelis had it coming, pity the collateral damage".  I'm sorry, but that's whacked.

Who's at fault?  The terrorists.  What makes the terrorists do what they do?  They're sick people.  If it isn't one thing it's another.  It's just a shame we haven't developed a bullet smart enough to stop them before they act.

I'll tell you, if I didn't think the building would be demolished by some idiot with a stupid agenda, I'd like to see American companies that are outsourcing to places like India and Malaysia start outsourcing to, say, Palestine.  Give people a reason to live and they'll stop looking for excuses to die.  Any major American corporation could easily offer these people wages that would exceed the 'bounty' offered to the families of suicide bombers.

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by ionia23

1. Israel is not wrong for defending itself
2. Saddam Hussein's practices are not the fault of the United States
3. The 9/11 attacks were unjustified
4. Our foreign policy between 1947 and the Carter administration was completely whacked.

1. True. Every country is allowed to defend themselves. But inflicting punishment on the whole Palestinian population for the actions of a few is wrong.

2. No, but the US (and the UK for that matter) sold him chemical weapons (or at least the technology to make them) to use against Iran, which were also used on the Kurds. These are the ever-elusive weapons which were given as the reason for the conquest of Iraq last year.

3. Now I don't know where you get that from, but it's bollocks. Al-qaeda have actually said why they did it - as a result of the US's foreign policy, in particular their ongoing support of Israel. Was it a horrific act? Yes. Was it entirely unjustified? Not by a long way.

4. And it still is. US foreign policy is pretty much ideal, if the intention is to get everyone else to hate you.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by pyro-manic

3. Now I don't know where you get that from, but it's bollocks. Al-qaeda have actually said why they did it - as a result of the US's foreign policy, in particular their ongoing support of Israel. Was it a horrific act? Yes. Was it entirely unjustified? Not by a long way.

I could personally care less why Al-Qaeda did it, the fact is they did.  had they kept it to the Pentagon and used a military aircraft, I could have lived with that, but noooo.

I've seen interviews with Bin Laden where he's asked if the West would do this, and this, and this, would he stop?  He said "No."  James Woods was right, the only way to stop a terrorist is to cut his head off.  However, you might be able to stop one before they become one (see other posts on this).

There were 12 day care centers in the Trade Center.  Nobody talks about that.  You go right ahead and explain that it was justified.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ionia23
What sets me off is people around here have absolutely no issue with ripping the Israelis up because a stray bullet kills some innocent civilian on accident, but not a single one of you give a flying crap when a suicide bomber levels a nightclub in Tel Aviv in the name of Allah beyond saying "well, the Israelis had it coming, pity the collateral damage".  I'm sorry, but that's whacked.

Who's at fault?  The terrorists.  What makes the terrorists do what they do?  They're sick people.  If it isn't one thing it's another.  It's just a shame we haven't developed a bullet smart enough to stop them before they act.

I'll tell you why that happens since you don't seem to have picked up on it.

Most of us think that the terrorists are sick bastards. I don't know anyone on this board with an ounce of sense who think that Israeli civilians have it coming when a terrorist blows up a nightclub or cafe.

However no one on this board is surprised by a sick bastard doing the sort of thing you'd expect from a sick bastard.

The government of Israel is a different matter. This is a democratically elected government committing attrocities and a democratically elected goverment is expected not to act like sick bastards simply because of the fact that if they do they should be replaced by the electorate.

In addition to this since Sharon was elected the people of Israel do bear a certain responsibility for electing him in the first place. They knew he was guilty of war crimes and yet they elected him anyway. Does that make it right that their discos and clubs get blown up, no. But it does mean that they are as guilty for putting him in power as the morons who voted for the Nazi party are for the whole crock of **** that followed afterwards.

Originally posted by ionia23
There were 12 day care centers in the Trade Center.  Nobody talks about that.  You go right ahead and explain that it was justified.

What a crap arguement.

As Rictor keeps pointing out how many children died because of American sanctions on humanitarian aid for Iraq? You want to explain why that was justified too?

Do I believe Bin Laden was justified. No. Do I believe you can hold up innocent children as an arguement. No. Not unless you let the other side do that too. Or do little brown lives count for less?

[Rictor]

ionia: as comforting as it may seem to build a solid wall between "us" and "them", the civilized people and the terrorists, anyone could become a suicide bomber under the right circumstances. I could; you could, anyone basically. If I lived in poverty and suffering for 30 years, under foreign occupation, forced to live with daily humiliatition, seeing my kids shot dead and my home demolished because of what some other person did, sure I'de be up for a little payback. If I saw no hope for breaking free from the oppression - and you can't reasonably claim that oppression is not whats going on the the occupied territories - then yeah, why not; at least this way (suicide bombing) I have some control over my live.

You can't claim that these people are all fanatics. They're ordinary people who have suffered more than you can imagine. I read a story a few months ago about how a woman, a mother of 2, a teachers - by all indications an educated and peaceful woman - strapped a bomb to herself and blew away a few Israelis.

No, the Palestinians are not blameless. If you bothered to read what I said before, you would know that I don't think that. But the two standards that matter, daily suffering and risk of death, are both higher for the Palestinians. For all this talk of the poor set upon Israelis, if you look at the statistics (provided by an Israeli source) you can see that more innocent Palestinians died since the start of the second Intifada than did Israelis. When it comes right down to it, the Palestinians have limited control over their own circumstances. The Israeli government has greater control over the Palestinians than they do over themselves, which leads to a master-slave relationship.

[karajorma]

Yeah but Rictor for all your arguements the Palestinians would get much further following Ghandi's example than Bin Laden's.

Sure if the situation is bad enough I'd be a suicide bomber too. But before that ever happened I'd explore every single peaceful option first. The palestinians have to take some blame for resorting to violence before even trying for a non-violent solution.  Sure their life is **** but this is not the way out.

*Hmmm. Hope I didn't set too many CIA alarm bells ringing with that suicide bomber comment *

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by ionia23I could personally care less why Al-Qaeda did it, the fact is they did. had they kept it to the Pentagon and used a military aircraft, I could have lived with that, but noooo.

I've seen interviews with Bin Laden where he's asked if the West would do this, and this, and this, would he stop? He said "No." James Woods was right, the only way to stop a terrorist is to cut his head off. However, you might be able to stop one before they become one (see other posts on this).

There were 12 day care centers in the Trade Center. Nobody talks about that. You go right ahead and explain that it was justified.

Very well - how many civilians died in that attack? Just under three thousand. How many civilians has the US killed in the last decade, through blockades, sanctions, and simply bombing the **** out of anyone they like? Even if you confine it to the Middle East, I can almost guarantee it's going to be at least ten times that many.

I'm not justifying it myself - I'm against war and violence entirely. I think that war is an abhorrent waste of life and resources, and I hope that the world will grow up a bit in the near future and stop being so selfish and petty. But when a country starts pissing all over the rest of the world to further it's own interests, and make it's corporate elite as rich as possible at the expense of hundreds of millions of people, then somebody is, at some point, going to say "**** this, I'm not going to be pissed on any more" and go out and get some revenge any way he can. That's all it was. Pure, simple revenge. Bin Laden is an evil man, yes, because he does not value human life, because he hates everything the "West" stands for, and he has twisted Islam to suit his purpose. But if it wasn't him who did it, somebody else would, sooner or later....

[ionia23]

Originally posted by karajorma

What a crap arguement.

As Rictor keeps pointing out how many children died because of American sanctions on humanitarian aid for Iraq? You want to explain why that was justified too?

Do I believe Bin Laden was justified. No. Do I believe you can hold up innocent children as an arguement. No. Not unless you let the other side do that too. Or do little brown lives count for less?

Rictor is also a...never mind it's totally not worth it.

The sanctions you're referring to were done by the UN, and were violated plenty of times by countries like France flying in humanitarian aid...which was of course earmarked by Hussein and his gang.  Who's responsible for what happened to his people? Himself and himself alone.  As a dictator, he had total control over getting the sanctions lifted.  Obviously it was awful what happened to the Iraqi citizenry, but that is not the fault of the US though it seems to easy to place the blame there.  The sanctions were absolutely justified, and it was the responsibility of Hussein to do the right thing for his people.  he did not.  Now he's out and even more cleaning up has to be done.  When governments make stupid decisions, the people suffer always.

And yeah, you can hold up kids as an argument in any direction.  And I do count the other side too.  But there is a huge difference between an accident and a deliberate targeting.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by pyro-manic
Very well - how many civilians died in that attack? Just under three thousand. How many civilians has the US killed in the last decade, through blockades, sanctions, and simply bombing the **** out of anyone they like? Even if you confine it to the Middle East, I can almost guarantee it's going to be at least ten times that many.

I'm not justifying it myself - I'm against war and violence entirely. I think that war is an abhorrent waste of life and resources, and I hope that the world will grow up a bit in the near future and stop being so selfish and petty. But when a country starts pissing all over the rest of the world to further it's own interests, and make it's corporate elite as rich as possible at the expense of hundreds of millions of people, then somebody is, at some point, going to say "**** this, I'm not going to be pissed on any more" and go out and get some revenge any way he can. That's all it was. Pure, simple revenge. Bin Laden is an evil man, yes, because he does not value human life, because he hates everything the "West" stands for, and he has twisted Islam to suit his purpose. But if it wasn't him who did it, somebody else would, sooner or later....

Don't believe for a moment we merely 'bomb anyone we like'.  We're not like that.

And I'm not blind to the fact that the last major terrorist attack in this country was committed by a white American who also happened to be a Christian and a Gulf War veteran...and had no conscience.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ionia23
The sanctions you're referring to were done by the UN, and were violated plenty of times by countries like France flying in humanitarian aid...which was of course earmarked by Hussein and his gang.  Who's responsible for what happened to his people? Himself and himself alone.  As a dictator, he had total control over getting the sanctions lifted.  Obviously it was awful what happened to the Iraqi citizenry, but that is not the fault of the US though it seems to easy to place the blame there.  The sanctions were absolutely justified, and it was the responsibility of Hussein to do the right thing for his people.  he did not.  Now he's out and even more cleaning up has to be done.  When governments make stupid decisions, the people suffer always.

You can shift the blame to the UN all you like but you know that it was the US who pushed for the sanctions in the first place.

And as for blaming Saddam. You're claiming that the UN/US is innocent of all the deaths that happened because the sanctions they initiated because Saddam was an evil crazy madman didn't have any effect because Saddam was an evil crazy madman

The UN/US must have known that there was a very good chance that Saddam wouldn't cave in. Even if they didn't know at first when it became obvious that he wouldn't cave in they shouldn't have allowed the suffering to continue especially when everyone knew it was having bugger all of an effect. That was just a case of the UN not being willing to swallow their pride and say that it didn't work so let's try something else.

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by ionia23


Don't believe for a moment we merely 'bomb anyone we like'.  We're not like that.

And I'm not blind to the fact that the last major terrorist attack in this country was committed by a white American who also happened to be a Christian and a Gulf War veteran...and had no conscience.

McVeigh was a right-wing psycho. Much like Islamic extremists are. Same beliefs, just different religions.

And as for bombing, not like what? You mean the US government doesn't put huge pressure on other countries to get them to allow themselves to be raped of yet another resource, or force all their farmers out of business by selling them crops from the Mid-West at prices so low they can't possibly compete? Not like that? Not like overthrowing democratically elected governments because they don't kiss enough USA sphincter? Not like that?

Bugger. Sorry about this rant, but I can't stand the blind patriotism that seems to come out of America these days, in the face of the government's record for the past 20 years. Open your eyes, look at all the disgraceful things your government does, and take responsibility. The people elected them (or not, in this case, but that's another matter), so the people have to be responsible for what they do. If you don't like the image America has, then do something about it.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by karajorma

The UN/US must have known that there was a very good chance that Saddam wouldn't cave in. Even if they didn't know at first when it became obvious that he wouldn't cave in they shouldn't have allowed the suffering to continue especially when everyone knew it was having bugger all of an effect. That was just a case of the UN not being willing to swallow their pride and say that it didn't work so let's try something else.

Okay, assuming you're right on this.  What would have been the alternative?

[vyper]

Let in medical supplies?

[Knight Templar]

That's a stupid idea, with them bleeding oil and all...

[ionia23]

Originally posted by pyro-manic
Bugger. Sorry about this rant, but I can't stand the blind patriotism that seems to come out of America these days, in the face of the government's record for the past 20 years. Open your eyes, look at all the disgraceful things your government does, and take responsibility. The people elected them (or not, in this case, but that's another matter), so the people have to be responsible for what they do. If you don't like the image America has, then do something about it.

Ahh, that's assuming I'm 'patriotic', which I'm not.  But I do have enough guts to stand up for what I think is right and blaming the US for the world's problems isn't one of those things.

20 years, that would put us back in...1984.  Lets see all the disgraceful things we've done:

Liberated Kuwait.  You should go to Kuwait's homepage some time to read about what they really think of the allied forces.
Crushed Saddam Hussein's regime into dust (it's all guerilla warfare now)
The Berlin Wall
Removed the Taliban from power (we've a long way to go on that)
Won the Cold War
the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties with Russia, buying us all some time from Armageddon
The Space Program
Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine...until Arafat flaked out at the last possible minute

Ya, we're truly awful.  Everything we do is a disgrace.  mmkay.

And your Shining Administration That Does No Wrong, what has it accomplished in the last 20 years?

[ionia23]

Originally posted by vyper
Let in medical supplies?

Honor the terms of the sanctions?

[Gank]

Originally posted by Corsair
Because of course, that's all the Israelis ever do. For the last freaking time, they are not the bloodthirsty mob you make them out to be.
I hate to say it, but I think that in order to have peace, the Palestinians have to make the first concession. They have to be the first ones to take one step back. Not a big step, mind, but still a step. Israel can't back down without being assured that Palestine will as well because its very survival is at stake. There is no Palestine at the moment, and therefore there is nothing for the Palestinian people to lose if they do what I'm suggesting.

What the **** are you talking about, Israel is occuping Palestinian territory and conducting ethnic cleansing and the palestinians must make concessions. Israels fighting for survival yet its the palestinians who have been occupied for 40 years, the palestinians whose houses are being demolished daily to make room for jewish settlers, the palestinians who are being fenced into ghettos. You come out with statements like these and have the cheek to question my logic?

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by ionia23


Ahh, that's assuming I'm 'patriotic', which I'm not.  But I do have enough guts to stand up for what I think is right and blaming the US for the world's problems isn't one of those things.

20 years, that would put us back in...1984.  Lets see all the disgraceful things we've done:

Liberated Kuwait.  You should go to Kuwait's homepage some time to read about what they really think of the allied forces.
Crushed Saddam Hussein's regime into dust (it's all guerilla warfare now)
The Berlin Wall
Removed the Taliban from power (we've a long way to go on that)
Won the Cold War
the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties with Russia, buying us all some time from Armageddon
The Space Program
Very nearly brought about a lasting peace in Israel/Palestine...until Arafat flaked out at the last possible minute

Ya, we're truly awful.  Everything we do is a disgrace.  mmkay.

And your Shining Administration That Does No Wrong, what has it accomplished in the last 20 years?

Let's take a look at your claims:
1. Liberated Kuwait. You're right there.
2. Crushed Saddam's regime. And you claim that guerilla warfare is better? Not to mention the fact we supported his regime for years.
3. Berlin Wall. That would be a result of the fall of the Soviet Union, not our actions.
4. Removed Taliban from power. They would never have come into power if we hadn't started ignoring Afghanistan as soon as the Soviets pulled out.
5. Won the Cold War. There were these things called Perestroika and Glasnost. Study them.
6. SALT. I'll give you that, even though realistically there wasn't much chance of nuclear war by that point.
7. Space program. It's kind of declined over the last 20 years, as the shuttle is actually a very primitive piece of hardware.
8. Israel/Palestine. I'm not even going into the argument there, as I consider both sides to be doing the most foolish thing possible.

[Gank]

Originally posted by ionia23
I would expect to hear that around here, but one has a right to be a total bigot if they want to, I suppose.

You should know, you exercise it regularly.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Gank


What the **** are you talking about, Israel is occuping Palestinian territory and conducting ethnic cleansing and the palestinians must make concessions. Israels fighting for survival yet its the palestinians who have been occupied for 40 years, the palestinians whose houses are being demolished daily to make room for jewish settlers, the palestinians who are being fenced into ghettos. You come out with statements like these and have the cheek to question my logic?

If the Israelis were conducting 'ethnic cleansing' they would have finished by now.  Their houses are not being 'demolished daily' to make room for settlers, it's current Israeli policy.  If some member of your family decides to go blow up a restaurant in Jerusalem for Allah, your home gets flattened.  Pretty simple, and totally f*cked up.

Corsair's right.  The only way the Palestinians are going to win is to pull a Ghandi.

It ain't the fault of the people, though the various martyr brigades could go a long way by getting rid of the payoffs for the families of suicide bombers.  I'm all for seeing the disputed territory handed back and Jerusalem being made a World City if that's what it will take.  But the suicide bombings have simply got to stop.